Blood is on the NRA's hands

[DC Tom]

What it does not have is a gun problem. I don't recall after OKC that we had a fertilizer and U-haul truck problem. Or after 9/11 an airplane problem.

 

Really? Try buying some ammonium nitrate. And have you been to an airport lately?

[KD in CA]

It's all fun and games until you're the one cowering under the table waiting for death to come.

 

The United States has an Islamic terrorism problem.

 

It also has a drug cartel, organized crime and gang problem.

 

It has a mental illness problem.

 

We have a problem taking the gloves off and addressing any of the above.

 

What it does not have is a gun problem. I don't recall after OKC that we had a fertilizer and U-haul truck problem. Or after 9/11 an airplane problem.

 

In fairness, we were too busy working on the 'angry right-winger' narrative after OKC to really notice the weapon of choice.

[GG]

All you're doing is pointing fingers and saying how wrong and unreasonable the "other" side is without any inward reflection. This is the problem. I agree with your points about the Liberal position. For example, why does the NRA/GOP oppose the funding of actual scientific research into solutions to the problem? Does that not seem like a reasonable thing to do if most reasonable people see that a problem exists? Your "side" appears to have as much of an agenda as anyone. Again, I agree with much of what you're saying, but it's an all-or-nothing approach with inconclusive evidence and little or no compromise. In other words, it's a very convenient argument based on your beliefs.

 

Of course I'm pointing fingers. That was the point of my reply.

 

As for blocking scientific research - that's another red herring. What is research going to show, that people who are dead set on committing violent acts are going to obtain a weapon of their choice, whether legally or not? As you've seen linked in this thread, obtaining a gun legally already is a very cumbersome process, and perversely it creates a very lucrative black market. The left remains tone deaf to the fact that Paris killers had no problems accessing military grade weaponry, even though NOBODY in Europe owns a gun. It's too convenient to ignore the modifications that Farook & Mrs did to their guns to improve their killing capability.

 

The reality that gun control advocates ignore is the 300 million existing guns in the country, and the near impossibility to collect them. If rounding up and deporting 11 million Mexicans is rightly seen as a logistical nightmare, compound that disaster by a factor of 30 and guess how that program would work out.

 

There's no shortage of left wing outrage about our country's "lax" gun laws, yet they don't care to admit that no laws would have prevented this particular couple from their rampage. So yeah, I'm pointing fingers for sensationalizing a tragedy to further an agenda - like the OP has and then run away hiding when every point has been refuted.

[B-Man]

The Attorney General of the United States Is Disgracing Herself

by David French

In her response to what appears to be a deadly, ISIS-motivated domestic terror attack, Attorney General Loretta Lynch has offered an almost Onion-level self-parody of liberal pieties.

Per Obama administration protocol, the attorney general was determined to never let a crisis go to waste. There is now a “wonderful opportunity and wonderful moment to really make significant change,” Lynch declared the day after 14 innocent Americans were murdered and 23 injured at the hands of a Muslim couple who’d reportedly pledged allegiance to ISIS. And what is this change? New gun-control measures, of course, including stripping the constitutional rights (without due process) of Americans often-arbitrarily placed on the vastly over-inclusive terror watch list.

Lynch addressed the Muslim Advocate’s 10th anniversary dinner and declared that she is concerned about an “incredibly disturbing rise of anti-Muslim rhetoric . . . that fear is my greatest fear.” Her greatest fear is — not terrorism — but a nonexistent Islamophobic backlash? ISIS has demonstrated that it can bring down passenger jets, strike the heart of a great Western capitol with urban assault teams, and inspire horrible carnage in California. We also know that ISIS has pledged to keep attacking the U.S. and possesses chemical weapons. Yet it’s politically incorrect speech that strikes fear into the heart of our attorney general.

What about blurring the distinction between speech and violence? Lynch is so serious about stopping Islamophobia that she’s sending a clear message to those who engage in “anti-Muslim rhetoric” — the Department of Justice is watching you:

When we talk about the First amendment we [must] make it clear that actions predicated on violent talk are not American. They are not who we are, they are not what we do, and they will be prosecuted.

 

And yet, there is no legally meaningful category of “action predicated on violent talk.” Lynch spoke against rhetoric that “edges towards violence,” but the law obviously prohibits violent actions — she’s speaking in terms alien to the First Amendment. True threats are unlawful, and true “incitement” isn’t protected by the Constitution, but these are extraordinarily narrow legal categories. Is it not enough to declare that the Department of Justice will enforce the law and uphold the Constitution?

{snip}

A competent attorney general shouldn’t even be talking about her “greatest fears,” much less that her greatest fear includes free speech. A competent attorney general should be speaking the language of vigilance, courage, and resolve. We know the Obama administration is capable of resolve. It is resolved to fundamentally transform our nation. It is resolved to advance the sexual-revolution agenda of the radical Left. It is resolved to turn our nation’s military into an engine of social justice. But it is not resolved to defend our nation and Constitution from a vicious enemy who seeks to soak our streets in blood. And that lack of resolve is worse than a shame — it’s a disgrace.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428048/san-bernardino-shooting-loretta-lynch-muslim-backlash

[LA Grant]

There seems to be a delusion that somehow the argument against gun control "won" in this thread simply because I am massively outnumbered. I want to do a quick recap and make it clear for those with trouble reading that is not the case. I mopped the floor with half this board with one hand tied behind my back. Frankly, you're only lucky there wasn't an objective scorekeeper because it wasn't close. What I say is not unique. I'm representing a very widely held belief in a board where there is no representation for said belief. The NRA is a harmful influence; stronger gun control is overdue and necessary. If you think there isn't a huge amount of support for that sentiment, you're once again deluding yourself.

 

Quick question — have conservatives ever been right about ANYTHING? I'm serious. Where are the conservative victories that should give you ANY kind of validity to ANYTHING you say? Economics? No. Foreign policy? No. Social issues? Obviously not. So, why exactly should anything a conservative says ever be taken seriously in any way?? Conservatives have been proven wrong historically about every position they've EVER taken. "History has a definite liberal bias" indeed. Being a conservative is like being the Washington Generals of policy. It's an embarrassing thing to be, so I don't mind shaming your stupidity. Name ONE victory for the conservative ideology! The history of this country is the struggle of slowly dragging whiny conservatives on a leash toward basic, sensible progress. Yet you continue to reproduce in large ugly numbers, fighting just as hard to lead us into the world of Idiocracy.

 

There is no valid argument in favor of the NRA. There is no valid argument against stronger gun control. Despite my thread title, only FireChan offered any sort of defense for the NRA and it wasn't much of a defense, he mostly admitted they are highly suspicious but didn't want to do anything about it. No coherent counter-argument against my claim was articulated even though I directly challenged for it. Unfortunately for the blood sport of debate, no Bill Buckley's emerged among you, not even a Bill O'Reilly. Here are the counter-arguments you guys collectively came up with that I didn't address head-on in my first post:

—You're an idiot

—There actually isn't a gun problem

—How would we do it?

—It sounds like a hassle!

—We're not admitting guns are a problem but if they were what would we do??

—Why don't you have all the answers?

—You're an idiot

—I heard a story about home invasion

—It was in the Second Amendment and they're smarter than me

—Citizens need protection against the government, specifically with automatic weapons

—Nobody in Paris owns a gun but if they all had guns they wouldn't have had terrorism maybe!

—Gun deaths are higher in states with less stringent gun laws oops wait no focus on the senator's quote

—You're an idiot and you're not "that" good at sarcasm

—Guns aren't the problem, it's Muslims

—Idiot

 

You have collectively hung yourself with 14+ pages of rope, only further proving: There is no valid argument against stronger gun control. There is no valid argument in favor of the NRA's agenda. The only arguments against gun control / in favor of guns, despite your consistent attempts to label liberals as emotional, are ironically all based purely on emotion:

 

—Delusional fantasies of being a cowboy hero

—Irrational fear of the other, aka, thinly veiled racism

—Tradition

 

Gun owners don't like to admit that owning a gun is all about feeling safe when it's in your hands and feeling powerful when you're shooting it. You are factually neither safer nor more powerful with the gun. There is nothing to suggest guns are a positive influence. It's all bluster.

 

When you do nothing for gun control, you end up with absurd solutions like these. This is the world you have created through ignorance, indifference, and inaction. I honestly think the only thing that might shake conservatives from their beliefs are more extreme tragedies; it's going to be more innocent kids in schools getting shot. Sandy Hook wasn't enough because conservatives are slow processors, it takes repeated shaking for them to get moving. Again, this is why conservatives are useless. You take forever to reach conclusions normal people reached years ago. The reality is there is a growing sentiment that old conservative white men who support the NRA are one of the most dangerous extremist groups in the country. You are quite literally what is wrong with the world.

 

Azalin said:

"You can't stop gun violence by advocating a cultural change which relies on willing and knowing curtailment of Constitutional freedoms, the precedent of which would have implications regarding all guarantees enumerated in the Bill of Rights."

 

Not with that attitude you can't

 

If I'm just an idiot, how we did we get to 14 pages? It's because I struck a nerve and you know there is plenty of truth to what I'm saying, you just don't like hearing it. On the other hand, this board doesn't mind all kinds of horrible racist and misogynistic posts from many of the very same posters who participated in this thread, yelling voraciously to shout me down.

 

Tell you what, if I'm so wrong and you're so right, try what I did here. Go to a leftist forum and say your version of the truth, as baldly as I stated mine. Can you even articulate your beliefs? "Mass shootings are part of life in America. The NRA supports the 2nd Amendment which is infallible. Supporting the NRA is my civic duty." If that's your belief, man up and test 'em. It's easy to stay in your cozy echo chamber — I could've stayed in mine — it takes balls to deal with angry dissent head-on. If nothing else, you should question all of your beliefs and test them rather than just accepting things because "that's the way things are." Conservatives never do this, because questioning leads to curiosity leads to learning... those things tend to lead away from conservatism.

 

Thanks to the moderators for allowing me to say my piece here.

 

Why Mass Shootings Don't Convince Gun Owners To Support Gun Control — http://www.vox.com/2015/12/4/9845146/mass-shootings-gun-control

Islamic Extremists Explain How Easy It Is To Buy a Gun in the U.S. — http://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/islamic-extremists-gun-sale-loopholes/

End the Gun Epidemic in America by the NY Times Editorial Board — http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-america.html?referer

Edited December 5, 2015 by LA Grant

[GG]

I bet you practiced this post a lot in front of a mirror

[TakeYouToTasker]

Fantastic.

 

1: make fiat declaration

2: refuse to defend fiat decaration

3: claim victory

[Ozymandius]

[B-Man]

Fantastic.

 

1: make fiat declaration

2: refuse to defend fiat decaration

3: claim victory

 

 

Don't forget to "bold", "italicize" and repeat your fiat declarations

 

There is no valid argument against stronger gun control. There is no valid argument in favor of the NRA's agenda.

 

 

 

Someone seems to have forgotten that the NRA is a civil rights organization made up of millions of American Citizens,

 

is easier if you think of them as a cartoonish super villainous cabal, I guess

[GG]

 

You're a full on retarded loon. No wonder you swoon over trump

Edited December 5, 2015 by GG

[TakeYouToTasker]

...

You're the dumbest person in this thread, and that's hard, considering the OP.

Edited December 5, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker

[DC Tom]

There seems to be a delusion that somehow the argument against gun control "won"

 

There seems to be a greater delusion that there's some sort of argument occurring here. There's not. You're just venting. You don't care what anyone else thinks, you just want attention.

 

Don't believe me? Then why...

 

 

Thanks to the moderators for allowing me to say my piece here.

[TakeYouToTasker]

I suspect LA Grant and Ozimandius are the same poster.

[sabrecrazed]

I suspect LA Grant and Ozimandius are the same poster.

What's more likely? Someone that retarded is able to pull that off, or there are two that retarded?

[Ozymandius]

What's more likely? Someone that retarded is able to pull that off, or there are two that retarded?

 

What's retarded?

 

Gun violence, like sickle cell anemia, is largely endemic to one segment of the population.

 

If people really want to do something about gun violence --if anything can even be done-- that fact has to be confronted.

You're a full on retarded loon. No wonder you swoon over trump

 

Feeling left out?

 

Don't worry. Under Emperor Trump's reign, neocons actually go into the oven BEFORE the progressives.

 

No more fighting wars for Israel, GG.

 

It's over.

[Deranged Rhino]

Yikes.

[Alaska Darin]

 

There seems to be a greater delusion that there's some sort of argument occurring here. There's not. You're just venting. You don't care what anyone else thinks, you just want attention.

 

Don't believe me? Then why...

 

 

The "moderator" think he's an idiot too but watching him flail around like a kid throwing a temper tantrum is at least mildly amusing.

[GG]

 

What's retarded?

 

Gun violence, like sickle cell anemia, is largely endemic to one segment of the population.

 

If people really want to do something about gun violence --if anything can even be done-- that fact has to be confronted.

 

 

Feeling left out?

 

Don't worry. Under Emperor Trump's reign, neocons actually go into the oven BEFORE the progressives.

 

No more fighting wars for Israel, GG.

 

It's over.

At least there's no doubt about trumps supporters.

[meazza]

At least there's no doubt about trumps supporters.

 

I'm quite certain ISIS is hoping for a Trump presidency.

[Keukasmallies]

For the sake of clarity, I invite readers to post the names of NRA members who actively participated in any of the numerous "mass shootings" that the US has suffered recently.

There seems to be a delusion that somehow the argument against gun control "won" in this thread simply because I am massively outnumbered. I want to do a quick recap and make it clear for those with trouble reading that is not the case. I mopped the floor with half this board with one hand tied behind my back. Frankly, you're only lucky there wasn't an objective scorekeeper because it wasn't close. What I say is not unique. I'm representing a very widely held belief in a board where there is no representation for said belief. The NRA is a harmful influence; stronger gun control is overdue and necessary. If you think there isn't a huge amount of support for that sentiment, you're once again deluding yourself.

 

Quick question — have conservatives ever been right about ANYTHING? I'm serious. Where are the conservative victories that should give you ANY kind of validity to ANYTHING you say? Economics? No. Foreign policy? No. Social issues? Obviously not. So, why exactly should anything a conservative says ever be taken seriously in any way?? Conservatives have been proven wrong historically about every position they've EVER taken. "History has a definite liberal bias" indeed. Being a conservative is like being the Washington Generals of policy. It's an embarrassing thing to be, so I don't mind shaming your stupidity. Name ONE victory for the conservative ideology! The history of this country is the struggle of slowly dragging whiny conservatives on a leash toward basic, sensible progress. Yet you continue to reproduce in large ugly numbers, fighting just as hard to lead us into the world of Idiocracy.

 

There is no valid argument in favor of the NRA. There is no valid argument against stronger gun control. Despite my thread title, only FireChan offered any sort of defense for the NRA and it wasn't much of a defense, he mostly admitted they are highly suspicious but didn't want to do anything about it. No coherent counter-argument against my claim was articulated even though I directly challenged for it. Unfortunately for the blood sport of debate, no Bill Buckley's emerged among you, not even a Bill O'Reilly. Here are the counter-arguments you guys collectively came up with that I didn't address head-on in my first post:

—You're an idiot

—There actually isn't a gun problem

—How would we do it?

—It sounds like a hassle!

—We're not admitting guns are a problem but if they were what would we do??

—Why don't you have all the answers?

—You're an idiot

—I heard a story about home invasion

—It was in the Second Amendment and they're smarter than me

—Citizens need protection against the government, specifically with automatic weapons

—Nobody in Paris owns a gun but if they all had guns they wouldn't have had terrorism maybe!

—Gun deaths are higher in states with less stringent gun laws oops wait no focus on the senator's quote

—You're an idiot and you're not "that" good at sarcasm

—Guns aren't the problem, it's Muslims

—Idiot

 

You have collectively hung yourself with 14+ pages of rope, only further proving: There is no valid argument against stronger gun control. There is no valid argument in favor of the NRA's agenda. The only arguments against gun control / in favor of guns, despite your consistent attempts to label liberals as emotional, are ironically all based purely on emotion:

 

—Delusional fantasies of being a cowboy hero

—Irrational fear of the other, aka, thinly veiled racism

—Tradition

 

Gun owners don't like to admit that owning a gun is all about feeling safe when it's in your hands and feeling powerful when you're shooting it. You are factually neither safer nor more powerful with the gun. There is nothing to suggest guns are a positive influence. It's all bluster.

 

When you do nothing for gun control, you end up with absurd solutions like these. This is the world you have created through ignorance, indifference, and inaction. I honestly think the only thing that might shake conservatives from their beliefs are more extreme tragedies; it's going to be more innocent kids in schools getting shot. Sandy Hook wasn't enough because conservatives are slow processors, it takes repeated shaking for them to get moving. Again, this is why conservatives are useless. You take forever to reach conclusions normal people reached years ago. The reality is there is a growing sentiment that old conservative white men who support the NRA are one of the most dangerous extremist groups in the country. You are quite literally what is wrong with the world.

 

Azalin said:

"You can't stop gun violence by advocating a cultural change which relies on willing and knowing curtailment of Constitutional freedoms, the precedent of which would have implications regarding all guarantees enumerated in the Bill of Rights."

 

Not with that attitude you can't

 

If I'm just an idiot, how we did we get to 14 pages? It's because I struck a nerve and you know there is plenty of truth to what I'm saying, you just don't like hearing it. On the other hand, this board doesn't mind all kinds of horrible racist and misogynistic posts from many of the very same posters who participated in this thread, yelling voraciously to shout me down.

 

Tell you what, if I'm so wrong and you're so right, try what I did here. Go to a leftist forum and say your version of the truth, as baldly as I stated mine. Can you even articulate your beliefs? "Mass shootings are part of life in America. The NRA supports the 2nd Amendment which is infallible. Supporting the NRA is my civic duty." If that's your belief, man up and test 'em. It's easy to stay in your cozy echo chamber — I could've stayed in mine — it takes balls to deal with angry dissent head-on. If nothing else, you should question all of your beliefs and test them rather than just accepting things because "that's the way things are." Conservatives never do this, because questioning leads to curiosity leads to learning... those things tend to lead away from conservatism.

 

Thanks to the moderators for allowing me to say my piece here.

 

Why Mass Shootings Don't Convince Gun Owners To Support Gun Control — http://www.vox.com/2015/12/4/9845146/mass-shootings-gun-control

Islamic Extremists Explain How Easy It Is To Buy a Gun in the U.S. — http://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/islamic-extremists-gun-sale-loopholes/

End the Gun Epidemic in America by the NY Times Editorial Board — http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opinion/end-the-gun-epidemic-in-america.html?referer

 

I suspect you'd be much happier with a website of your own wherein you could volley pro's and con's to your heart's content. Then, you could be self-righteous from two points of view...and what could be better for you?