What's the Tipping Point?

[filthymcnasty08]

"Just give it to them" is as Bills-specific reference there is. I am willing to bet almost no pats fans know this; I also bet almost the entire bills team and staff doesn't either. You basically have to be a long-time diehard Bills fan to know that reference.

I just can't fathom jon Gruden, of all

People, knowing the reference.

In your rookie season as an NFL HC, dream job, in the hunt for a wildcard, nationally televised game with 2 of your possible playoff opponents and......you're chucky. I bet he watched in the film room with his coaches. I think that guy can tell you play for play what happened.. but honestly I can see why you would think otherwise.

[dpberr]

what the heck is it with people lately going off the deep end and thinking the NFL is rigged? rigged by who? Kraft? Goodell? Are all owners "in on it"? the notion is ridiculous. Rewarded by who????

 

The NFL is a business, you're right. And that business consists of 32 owners. So are the other 31 owners in on the patriots "cheating"? How do the Jaguars benefit from this "cheating"? And why the Pats? Why wouldn't the Titans owner want the Dallas cowboys to "cheat" and win the super bowl? After all, the Dallas market is bigger than NE. Why don't the owners just fix it so the NY Jets win it every single season. Or you know what, what about Goodell making the Bears win it every year.

You guys see ghosts. It's sad.

Since Goodell has been in office, the patriots have won ONE super bowl in 9 years.

 

With Tagliabu in office, the Patriots won THREE super bowls (in three out of four years in early/mid 2000s). Was Tagliabu "in on it" too?

 

Critical thinking in this country has been flushed down the toilet along with a lot of other things.

 

You assume a private business has any obligation whatsoever to be "fair" to the consumers.

 

Free agency is what did it for me. That was the day the NFL started dying a slow death. It was a private business instituting mandatory asset reallocation for the purpose of controlling the product to make even more money.

[Kelly the Dog]

In your rookie season as an NFL HC, dream job, in the hunt for a wildcard, nationally televised game with 2 of your possible playoff opponents and......you're chucky. I bet he watched in the film room with his coaches. I think that guy can tell you play for play what happened.. but honestly I can see why you would think otherwise.

Exactly. He knew what he was saying.

[bobobonators]

 

You assume a private business has any obligation whatsoever to be "fair" to the consumers.

 

Free agency is what did it for me. That was the day the NFL started dying a slow death. It was a private business instituting mandatory asset reallocation for the purpose of controlling the product to make even more money.

 

I'm not assuming anything - the conspiracy theorists are the ones that are making all of the assumptions.

 

Claim: The NFL wants the Pats to win.

 

Well, the NFL consists of 31 other owners. Why do the 31 other owners want the Pats to win? And why have the Pats only won once in the last 9 years if that was the case? And what exactly is the reasoning/motivation behind the NFL wanting the Pats - specifically the Pats - to win?

 

Why wouldn't the NFL want the Chicago Bears to win? The NY Jets to win? The Dallas Cowboys to win? All larger markets than NE. How many super bowls have those teams won in the last 20yrs?

 

Is it a coincidence that all of the Pats' success in the last 15 years has to do with a guy named Brady being the QB and BB being the head coach? It's not rocket science. There is no conspiracy. Brady & BB are the greatest QB/HC combo in the history of the NFL. Their time will soon come to an end, but lets not lose our minds with these silly conspiracy theories in the meantime.

Edited November 25, 2015 by bobobonators

[section122]

 

I'm not assuming anything - the conspiracy theorists are the ones that are making all of the assumptions.

 

Claim: The NFL wants the Pats to win.

 

Well, the NFL consists of 31 other owners. Why do the 31 other owners want the Pats to win? And why have the Pats only won once in the last 9 years if that was the case? And what exactly is the reasoning/motivation behind the NFL wanting the Pats - specifically the Pats - to win?

 

Why wouldn't the NFL want the Chicago Bears to win? The NY Jets to win? The Dallas Cowboys to win? All larger markets than NE. How many super bowls have those teams won in the last 20yrs?

 

Is it a coincidence that all of the Pats' success in the last 15 years has to do with a guy named Brady being the QB and BB being the head coach? It's not rocket science. There is no conspiracy. Brady & BB are the greatest QB/HC combo in the history of the NFL. Their time will soon come to an end, but lets not lose our minds with these silly conspiracy theories in the meantime.

Who in this thread has said it was fixed.

 

Looking the other way while a team skirts the rules isn't fixing the game in my mind. My entire post in this thread was to the point that I can't care about football as much because there is a team that regularly plays right at the border of the rules and it seems nobody in the league cares. The BB combo is a great one. However when their names are mentioned cheating is the first thought of many people. I think a lot of people specifically people here would take 4 sb championships even if it came with the cheater reputation.

 

Was spygate, the loss of a first round pick, and a million dollar fine worth 3 championships? You bet your ass it was to the Pats*. Do you think a first round pick, 750k fine, and entire offseason of deflated ball talk was worth a championship. I'll bet it was. I would wager the Pats* have made way more than 1.75 million dollars from being a 4 time champion. That is why cheating is worth it and why I have reached the tipping point when it comes to being a die hard. I still love football. I still watch every week and plan my life around Bills games. I am nowhere near as emotionally invested as I used to be.

[Mr. WEO]

Who in this thread has said it was fixed.

 

Looking the other way while a team skirts the rules isn't fixing the game in my mind. My entire post in this thread was to the point that I can't care about football as much because there is a team that regularly plays right at the border of the rules and it seems nobody in the league cares. The BB combo is a great one. However when their names are mentioned cheating is the first thought of many people. I think a lot of people specifically people here would take 4 sb championships even if it came with the cheater reputation.

 

Was spygate, the loss of a first round pick, and a million dollar fine worth 3 championships? You bet your ass it was to the Pats*. Do you think a first round pick, 750k fine, and entire offseason of deflated ball talk was worth a championship. I'll bet it was. I would wager the Pats* have made way more than 1.75 million dollars from being a 4 time champion. That is why cheating is worth it and why I have reached the tipping point when it comes to being a die hard. I still love football. I still watch every week and plan my life around Bills games. I am nowhere near as emotionally invested as I used to be.

 

 

Other than OP?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Mr. WEO

[bobobonators]

Who in this thread has said it was fixed.

 

Looking the other way while a team skirts the rules isn't fixing the game in my mind. My entire post in this thread was to the point that I can't care about football as much because there is a team that regularly plays right at the border of the rules and it seems nobody in the league cares. The BB combo is a great one. However when their names are mentioned cheating is the first thought of many people. I think a lot of people specifically people here would take 4 sb championships even if it came with the cheater reputation.

 

Was spygate, the loss of a first round pick, and a million dollar fine worth 3 championships? You bet your ass it was to the Pats*. Do you think a first round pick, 750k fine, and entire offseason of deflated ball talk was worth a championship. I'll bet it was. I would wager the Pats* have made way more than 1.75 million dollars from being a 4 time champion. That is why cheating is worth it and why I have reached the tipping point when it comes to being a die hard. I still love football. I still watch every week and plan my life around Bills games. I am nowhere near as emotionally invested as I used to be.

 

Are you being serious?

 

Some of you are so caught up in your delusions, you don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

[section122]

 

 

Other than OP?

Eh I don't know here is what he said...

 

I'm pretty close but I'm not there yet. Personally, I found it completely comical that Gruden literally said "just give it to em" on the Shady TD. That's an obvious reference to that infamous game and possibly a subtle admission by Gruden that this whole thing is fixed... I'm close, but not there yet.

 

Are you being serious?

 

Some of you are so caught up in your delusions, you don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

so angry.

 

for absolutely no reason. Can you please point to anyone saying it is fixed in this thread?

[Doug Flutie Band]

Why can't you guys just admit that the Patriots are superior to the Bills in every way?

 

You get so fixated on "cheating" that it seems you can't be honest with yourself and admit that Brady and Belichick is the greatest QB/Coach combo of the last 20 years. Of course they are going to have success, and of course the Bills are going to consistently lose to them. It's like playing against Jordan.

It's like it personally impacts your own sense of self worth and self esteem somehow.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I definitely think he knew exactly what he was saying and if anything it was pro Bills. He's a game watching freak of nature. I would bet anything he knew about that. I agree with most of the rest of your post, that vast majority know nothing of it.

If you are right, I have a much greater appreciation for Gruden-- because that is a Footnote kind of thing to know for a broadcaster.

[bobobonators]

Eh I don't know here is what he said...

 

I'm pretty close but I'm not there yet. Personally, I found it completely comical that Gruden literally said "just give it to em" on the Shady TD. That's an obvious reference to that infamous game and possibly a subtle admission by Gruden that this whole thing is fixed... I'm close, but not there yet.

so angry.

 

for absolutely no reason. Can you please point to anyone saying it is fixed in this thread?

 

I'm not angry..it's just disturbing to hear fellow Bills fans stoop to such pointless, baseless, delusional accusations involving the NFL/Goodell and the Pats. You guys are better than that. It's like coming on here to argue about UFO's and unicorns.

 

And are you still being serious? THE ENTIRE THREAD eludes to collusion between the league and the Pats. After you read this entire thread, what exactly did you take from it? Give me a one sentence summary of this thread.

The OP even goes as far to say that the broadcast of the game is skewed in favor of the Pats b/c they don't replay certain penalties. LMAO. I have to laugh to not cry.

Edited November 25, 2015 by bobobonators

[jimmy10]

If there's any "conspiracy," I don't think it's to fix games. I think it's more likely the league and most owners would want to quash any talk of cheating to keep people believing the games are being played on the level and keep people spending money on the product.

[bobobonators]

If there's any "conspiracy," I don't think it's to fix games. I think it's more likely the league and most owners would want to quash any talk of cheating to keep people believing the games are being played on the level and keep people spending money on the product.

 

I can't agree. You don't think the Bills, Jets, Dolphins ownership wouldn't want the Pats penalized for "cheating" if they could? To have Brady suspended? (which the league tried to do); to have draft picks taken away? To tarnish BB and Brady? I feel 31 teams in the league would die to have that done.

 

The only cheating going on is that Brady and BB vs. 95% of the league is an unfair matchup in terms of talent/strategy.

 

At the end of the day, look how many different teams have won super bowls over the last 20 yrs. We've had what, two repeat winners in last 20yrs? If certain teams are cheating, they're doing a piss-poor job at it.

[Kelly the Dog]

I have said this before here but it's worth pointing out again that I blame this all on Michael Jordan. In the NBA and in all other team sports, in general, up to that point, the officials gave star players and great teams the benefit of the doubt on all calls. It was like a championship boxing match. You had to clearly beat the champion to win the belt. If there was any doubt whatsoever or it was close, the star player or team would get the benefit of the doubt and therefore the call.

 

Then Jordan became great in his 7th or so year and soon, Jordan didn't get the benefit of the doubt call he got virtually EVERY call no matter what. He was such a superstar that it went completely overboard. The same thing somewhat happened with Shaq. He just did whatever he wanted and he got every single call. It distorted the benefit of the doubt concept to the point of cheating. And both of them took full advantage of knowing they would get the calls. Shaq just started barreling into people. Jordan totally forget about the traveling rule, etc.

 

That is what has evolved with the Patriots for the most part. I have no idea why, other than Kraft, Bellichick and Brady are a great triumvirate to love or hate which is good for business.

[jimmy10]

 

I can't agree. You don't think the Bills, Jets, Dolphins ownership wouldn't want the Pats penalized for "cheating" if they could? To have Brady suspended? (which the league tried to do); to have draft picks taken away? To tarnish BB and Brady? I feel 31 teams in the league would die to have that done.

 

 

Well, that's why I said "most" owners. Yeah, the division rivals or teams who feel they've been wronged might speak up (as the Colts and Ravens did). Take a random owner in the NFC on the other side of the country, say Jed York. I don't think it's a stretch to say someone like that wouldn't care so much about what goes on in New England as long as the collective bottom line still looks good.

 

And don't forget the Pats HAVE been penalized. Draft picks, fines. Brady only got off on a technicality by way of Goodell's hubris and mismanagement of the situation.

 

The only cheating going on is that Brady and BB vs. 95% of the league is an unfair matchup in terms of talent/strategy.

Maybe you're right. I totally respect this stance. But what I keep going back to in my mind is: If they did nothing wrong, why accept penalties in both the video and deflation cases?

 

That is what has evolved with the Patriots for the most part. I have no idea why, other than Kraft, Bellichick and Brady are a great triumvirate to love or hate which is good for business.

Another great point. Black hats, heels and bad guys are always good for business in an industry predicated on getting as many eyeballs on your product as possible. Edited November 25, 2015 by jimmy10

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Why can't you guys just admit that the Patriots are superior to the Bills in every way?

the Cheatriots are superior to the Bills in every way.

 

There I said it. Now if only the Refs would call an honest game ..... things might have been a little bit different over the years in close games.

[KD in CA]

Why can't you guys just admit that the Patriots are superior to the Bills in every way?

 

You get so fixated on "cheating" that it seems you can't be honest with yourself and admit that Brady and Belichick is the greatest QB/Coach combo of the last 20 years. Of course they are going to have success, and of course the Bills are going to consistently lose to them. It's like playing against Jordan.

It's like it personally impacts your own sense of self worth and self esteem somehow.

 

IMO the Pats* get favorable treatment from the refs, but that happens in every sport with star players/teams so teams have to deal with it.

 

But the Bills lose because they are undisciplined, make bone-headed plays and miss opportunities. The Pats rarely do any of those things so yes, they are superior to the Bills from top to bottom. Belichick is probably the greatest coach ever. His team's preparation and ever changing game plans are unlike anything I've seen.

 

Just the history of unsung guys making huge plays at the most critical times is amazing. Odell Beckham getting stripped of the winning TD two weeks ago, same thing happens to Lee Evans in the AFCC, Butler's pick in the SB, Troy Brown stripping Marlon McCree to save another playoff game. It just happens over and over again and it's not an accident. They find a way to win because they are always prepared for the situation they find themselves in. That's Belichick.

 

Meanwhile, when the Bills need a two minute drill they've already wasted their timeouts and their QB needs help from the sideline after one play. Night and day.

[Just in Atlanta]

if anyone wants to blame a conspiracy, it should be the Smoking Man.

 

 

Three things need to happen to properly execute a conspiracy:

 

1. There needs to be clear benefit for EVERYBODY involved. Why would the 31 other team owners and NFL employees abide?

2. Everyone involved needs to prevent leakage of said conspiracy. Why wouldn't someone speak out? How wouldn't the media catch on?

3. Everyone involved needs to be super competent to pull off such a feat. When was the last time every single person on any team fit that description?

 

As fans, we hyper focus on the bad calls that affect our teams. The indefensible blown calls Monday, for example, went two against Buffalo and one (perhaps a TD score) against NE.

 

Perhaps the better explanation is that refs are human (they are) and that the Pats are really good (ditto).

Edited November 25, 2015 by Just in Atlanta

[Billsfansince90]

It wasn't something anybody watching the game would know. You'd have to see the Andre Reed interview afterward. And it's not like it was played over and over and over. Quite a reach to say the least, although stranger things have happened.

[section122]

I have said this before here but it's worth pointing out again that I blame this all on Michael Jordan. In the NBA and in all other team sports, in general, up to that point, the officials gave star players and great teams the benefit of the doubt on all calls. It was like a championship boxing match. You had to clearly beat the champion to win the belt. If there was any doubt whatsoever or it was close, the star player or team would get the benefit of the doubt and therefore the call.

 

Then Jordan became great in his 7th or so year and soon, Jordan didn't get the benefit of the doubt call he got virtually EVERY call no matter what. He was such a superstar that it went completely overboard. The same thing somewhat happened with Shaq. He just did whatever he wanted and he got every single call. It distorted the benefit of the doubt concept to the point of cheating. And both of them took full advantage of knowing they would get the calls. Shaq just started barreling into people. Jordan totally forget about the traveling rule, etc.

 

That is what has evolved with the Patriots for the most part. I have no idea why, other than Kraft, Bellichick and Brady are a great triumvirate to love or hate which is good for business.

 

 

 

IMO the Pats* get favorable treatment from the refs, but that happens in every sport with star players/teams so teams have to deal with it.

 

But the Bills lose because they are undisciplined, make bone-headed plays and miss opportunities. The Pats rarely do any of those things so yes, they are superior to the Bills from top to bottom. Belichick is probably the greatest coach ever. His team's preparation and ever changing game plans are unlike anything I've seen.

 

Just the history of unsung guys making huge plays at the most critical times is amazing. Odell Beckham getting stripped of the winning TD two weeks ago, same thing happens to Lee Evans in the AFCC, Butler's pick in the SB, Troy Brown stripping Marlon McCree to save another playoff game. It just happens over and over again and it's not an accident. They find a way to win because they are always prepared for the situation they find themselves in. That's Belichick.

 

Meanwhile, when the Bills need a two minute drill they've already wasted their timeouts and their QB needs help from the sideline after one play. Night and day.

Two very good posts on the topic.

 

I remember a play while watching with a friend that was a huge Jordan fan, Jordan rose up took the shot, missed it, the other team got the rebound, then the foul was called. Only then did I get him to admit to "Jordan Rules"

 

The Patriots* are a very good team and extremely well coached. That is what makes the stretching of the rules and preferential treatment all the more obnoxious. They don't NEED it to be good. Them getting it pushes them into the spectacular stratosphere. Then hearing about how great they are gets obnoxious quick. The NBA was never more popular than it was when Jordan played. The NFL has never been more popular than it is now. These teams and the league are run by very smart people.

 

As I have posted each time in this thread. It isn't about being rigged. It is about the stretching of the rules on their own accord (outside of league approval) and then the league slapping them on the hand that has caused me to not care as much. Not some grand conspiracy. The punishment has not fit the crime. No wins stripped, no championships stripped, no long lasting detriment, all for the benefit of the league. I totally get it and the masses are eating it up. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

It wasn't something anybody watching the game would know. You'd have to see the Andre Reed interview afterward. And it's not like it was played over and over and over. Quite a reach to say the least, although stranger things have happened.

Little fuzzy on the facts but wasn't this the same game they called PI in the end zone on a hail mary and the team walked off before the pat? Not that I think Gruden was or wasn't referencing that game but I remember the end of that game being a big deal. If it was the same game I could see it sticking in a football junkie's brain.