Mike Pereira: Bills should have had one more play

[PatsFanNH]

 

Did you happen to catch the Bills Dolphins game last November when Walt Coleman called Kyle Orton for intentional grounding on Thursday night? If that was IG, Brady should have been called for it numerous times last night.

I saw the one in the Giant SB where Brady got called for it even thought there was a guy right there... the refs inconsitencies are annoying.

You are absolutely correct. That is the definition of grounding. Throwing ball away to avoid a sack

And there is where the JUDGEMENT call comes in. the ref has to determine they feel he was doing this.

[enlightener]

another game against NE, the fourth in a row now, where a flag is thrown AND THEN PICKED UP!!!! always its on them and then picked up. later we will get one where its not even a foul and they enforce it.

 

Is this the same crap crew that officiated thurs night bills dolphins last year?

[DC Greg]

Deadspin article on this. Absolutely absurd. Officials should be docked pay for this kind of thing. Conduct detrimental to the game.

 

http://deadspin.com/report-bad-call-at-end-of-patriots-bills-game-was-beca-1744420521?sidebar_promotions_icons=testingoff&utm_expid=66866090-67.e9PWeE2DSnKObFD7vNEoqg.1&utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F

Not even mad. One armed Tyrod wasn't going to even take a shot.

 

That is beside the point. There should be accountability from the league when calls this bad happen.

[Wazzu Bill]

Anyone else upset about the non-PI call on the Pats CB when he shoved Hogan on the deep ball (1st Q?). Haven't heard anyone bring it up

 

Also, on the offsetting penalties that reversed the INT - why isn't illegal formation a dead ball? If they are lined up illegally, why should we get nicked for a holding when we might have needed to hold to make up for the illegal formation?

[Kelly the Dog]

Anyone else upset about the non-PI call on the Pats CB when he shoved Hogan on the deep ball (1st Q?). Haven't heard anyone bring it up

 

Also, on the offsetting penalties that reversed the INT - why isn't illegal formation a dead ball? If they are lined up illegally, why should we get nicked for a holding when we might have needed to hold to make up for the illegal formation?

It was talked about by a few posters in a few different threads. That is textbook PI and a horrendous call.

[Wazzu Bill]

It was talked about by a few posters in a few different threads. That is textbook PI and a horrendous call.

 

Agreed. If anything should have grinded Gruden's gears, it should have been that play. I was furious how one-sided the commentators complained about the Pats getting screwed by the refs

[DC Tom]

You are absolutely correct. That is the definition of grounding. Throwing ball away to avoid a sack

 

 

But there has to not be a receiver in the area, or the QB has to be outside the tackles. Every single time, Brady met one of those two criteria.

 

Of course, every single time he was also throwing the ball directly in to the ground, so there was no chance of it being intercepted either. So he wasn't trying to make any sort of play, he was intentionally getting rid of it each and every time. But that's not intentional grounding, by the rules.

 

And I don't want to hear any more of this "greatest of all time" bull ****. The "greatest of all time" doesn't make one pre-snap read, then chuck the ball into the ground every time that single read is covered. That's not football, that's pansy-ass kitty ball.

[TheFunPolice]

I was mad because I wanted to see one last 3 yard pass to end the game

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

But there has to not be a receiver in the area, or the QB has to be outside the tackles. Every single time, Brady met one of those two criteria.

 

Of course, every single time he was also throwing the ball directly in to the ground, so there was no chance of it being intercepted either. So he wasn't trying to make any sort of play, he was intentionally getting rid of it each and every time. But that's not intentional grounding, by the rules.

 

And I don't want to hear any more of this "greatest of all time" bull ****. The "greatest of all time" doesn't make one pre-snap read, then chuck the ball into the ground every time that single read is covered. That's not football, that's pansy-ass kitty ball.

I'm not sure about that. Below are the actual rules. Item 4 at the bottom seems to say that you cannot just throw the ball into the dirt even if you are not being rushed, outside of spiking it to stop the clock. The above rule, which you refer to, is murky. The first sentence states that it's grounding without a realistic chance of completion. That is exactly what happened. There is 0.0% of completion.

 

The second sentence is the tricky one. It defines realistic chance as having a receiver in the area and the pass in the vacinity. While there was arguably a receiver in the area, that is only not a penalty if the official determines by judgment that there is a realistic chance of completion, however slight that chance may be. I know announcers get this wrong all the time. But I don't think it's an automatic that if there is a receiver in the area it is automatically waived off. I think it has to be both.

 

 

Article 1 Definition. It is a foul for intentional grounding if a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage

because of pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a realistic chance of completion. A

realistic chance of completion is defined as a pass that lands in the direction and the vicinity of an

originally eligible receiver.

Item 1: Passer or Ball Outside Tackle Position.Intentional grounding will not be called when a passer,

who is outside, or has been outside, the tackle position throws a forward pass that lands at or beyond

the line of scrimmage, even if no offensive player(s) have a realistic chance to catch the ball (including

when the ball lands out of bounds over the sideline or endline). If a loose ball leaves the area

bordered by the tackles, this area no longer exists; if the ball is recovered, all intentional grounding

rules apply as if the passer is outside this area.

Item 2: Physical Contact.

 

 

 

 

 

Item 3: Stopping ClockA player under center is permitted to stop the game clock legally to save time if,

immediately upon receiving the snap, he begins a continuous throwing motion and throws the ball

directly into the ground.

Item 4: Delayed SpikeA passer, after delaying his passing action for strategic purposes, is prohibited

from throwing the ball to the ground in front of him, even though he is under no pressure from

defensive rusher(s).

[Not at the table Karlos]

I reviewed this play over and over on my DVR in slow mo. The ref that calls the holding was at the top of the screen. He calls the holding on Graham? even though he is obscured by Gronk. If you watch it Gronk doesn't seem to be held because he moves at regular speed on his route. In addition he throws the flag real early even though the "contact" (whatever it is) is within 5yds. It was a really chincy call. Graham doesn't impede Gronk at all. And they didn't show a clear replay of it at the time. Even though it was a huge play for the Bills D!

they did show a replay of this play from the back angle. It showed graham grabbing gronks jersey and the jersey stretching. Clearly a defensive holding call.

[What a Tuel]

I haven't read all the pages, but I just read the following explanation.Absurd I know, but it is what the officials were thinking I guess. The problem I have is that somehow Brady and Belichick would've gotten that 2 seconds back if it was them through arguing or special deliberation between the officials.

 

Could you clarify what was seen on the last play to rule the player [in bounds]?

GS: What we had as far as the last play with Buffalo’s reception was that the receiver gave himself up voluntarily in the field of play. When that occurs and we deem that the runner, which he would have been after he maintained possession after his reception, he was now a runner, had given himself up in the field of play. Then [the] fact that he scoots out of bounds is not as important. We wound the clock. It was a judgment call by that head linesman that he felt like he gave himself up in the field of play. It’s not a reviewable play. So winding the clock or stopping the clock is not something we review. So, in his judgment, he deemed that the runner gave himself up in the field of play voluntarily, which does put him down by contact in the field, so he wound [the clock].

[DC Tom]

I'm not sure about that. Below are the actual rules. Item 4 at the bottom seems to say that you cannot just throw the ball into the dirt even if you are not being rushed, outside of spiking it to stop the clock. The above rule, which you refer to, is murky. The first sentence states that it's grounding without a realistic chance of completion.

 

Except that the dumbass rule then goes on to define "realistic chance of completion" as "a pass that lands in the direction and the vicinity of an originally eligible receiver." So depending on how the official interprets "direction" and "vicinity," it's completely ambiguous at the official's discretion. And all of Brady's ground balls that I recall meet a valid definition of "direction and vicinity of an originally eligible receiver."

 

Of course, there's times when officials have called a pass grounding because, even though it was in the "direction and vicinity" of a receiver, it wasn't catchable. I recall Orton having such a call go against him last year, when he threw the ball to a receiver who cut in instead of out - an actual pass retroactively turned into intentional grounding because another player made a mistake. And still a valid call under the rule, since the ball "wasn't catchable."

 

A perfect example of how it's the idiotic rules, more than the officials themselves, that are the problem. It gets so nitpicky and detailed that it becomes even more ambiguous, because every nitpicky detail is another factotum that can get interpreted differently by different officials.

 

Why not just say "If a quarterback, who is scrambling from pressure or under threat of being sacked, is inside the tackles and throws the ball into the ground, it's intentional grounding. Exception: spiking the ball to stop the clock."

[Kelly the Dog]

The crew that did our game is off next week. It's not known if this was a scheduled week off or not.

 

@footballzebras: Week 12 referee assignments: https://t.co/Au2Ji7WvzP

Steratore's crew is off; we haven't verified if this was their scheduled week off

[PromoTheRobot]

The crew that did our game is off next week. It's not known if this was a scheduled week off or not.

 

@footballzebras: Week 12 referee assignments: https://t.co/Au2Ji7WvzP

Steratore's crew is off; we haven't verified if this was their scheduled week off

Steratore's concocting cover stories for his fellow officials is very troubling to me. It speaks to a CYA culture among NFL referees when the fair and honest application of the rulebook should be their prime directive. Games are won and lost on officials' calls or non-calls. Fk anyone who says otherwise. It ought to be an alarm bell to Fumbles Goodell that the guardians of NFL integrity will play fast and loose with the rulebook just so a drinking buddy doesn't take flack.

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

We got screwed by the officials again against the cheaters. What else is new Kraft owns these guys. picked up,flag on face mask, hold on graham sure he had cloth but seen worse from cheaters OL, the lost second on the woods first down at ver turn that never added back, Sammy out of bounds and still time should be on the clock, the whistle before ball leaves Marcie's hands etc etc etc. this is getting so old no wonders every other fan of NFL teams hates these fruckers

[Reed83HOF]

We got screwed by the officials again against the cheaters. What else is new Kraft owns these guys. picked up,flag on face mask, hold on graham sure he had cloth but seen worse from cheaters OL, the lost second on the woods first down at ver turn that never added back, Sammy out of bounds and still time should be on the clock, the whistle before ball leaves Marcie's hands etc etc etc. this is getting so old no wonders every other fan of NFL teams hates these fruckers

 

We may have gotten hosed on calls, but we styill had a few opportunities to win in spite of this and our players didn't convert and made mistakes. The game was there for our taking even with these calls....

[Nervous Guy]

 

I haven't read all the pages, but I just read the following explanation.Absurd I know, but it is what the officials were thinking I guess. The problem I have is that somehow Brady and Belichick would've gotten that 2 seconds back if it was them through arguing or special deliberation between the officials.

 

Could you clarify what was seen on the last play to rule the player [in bounds]?

 

GS: What we had as far as the last play with Buffalo’s reception was that the receiver gave himself up voluntarily in the field of play. When that occurs and we deem that the runner, which he would have been after he maintained possession after his reception, he was now a runner, had given himself up in the field of play. Then [the] fact that he scoots out of bounds is not as important. We wound the clock. It was a judgment call by that head linesman that he felt like he gave himself up in the field of play. It’s not a reviewable play. So winding the clock or stopping the clock is not something we review. So, in his judgment, he deemed that the runner gave himself up in the field of play voluntarily, which does put him down by contact in the field, so he wound [the clock].

 

 

Now there's this gem....looks like the ref was using Collegiate rules....

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/report-official-mistakenly-used-college-rule-on-watkins-catch/ar-BBnp6Vm?li=BBnb7Kz

[BUNCH OF MULARKEY]

Funny listening to murph and kelso during the games this one has kelso nuts.

And it has happened once the last TWO games.

Ineligible man downfield when the ball is caught behind the line of scrimmage.

High school games are officiated better. Incredible.

Edited November 25, 2015 by BUNCH OF MULARKEY

[That's No Moon]

Did anyone comment on the pats illegal substitution on the pats "hurry up TD"?

Or the roughing the punter call they missed? Or the facemask they picked up? Or the face guarding on Sammy? Or the DPI on Hogan? All huge penalties in huge spots.

Deadspin article on this. Absolutely absurd. Officials should be docked pay for this kind of thing. Conduct detrimental to the game.

 

http://deadspin.com/report-bad-call-at-end-of-patriots-bills-game-was-beca-1744420521?sidebar_promotions_icons=testingoff&utm_expid=66866090-67.e9PWeE2DSnKObFD7vNEoqg.1&utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F

 

That is beside the point. There should be accountability from the league when calls this bad happen.

What accountability? The league profits more from New England winning, staying undefeated and preserving the "our Super Bowl was completely untainted and legitimate" narrative.

[What a Tuel]

Or the roughing the punter call they missed? Or the facemask they picked up? Or the face guarding on Sammy? Or the DPI on Hogan? All huge penalties in huge spots.

What accountability? The league profits more from New England winning, staying undefeated and preserving the "our Super Bowl was completely untainted and legitimate" narrative.

 

More and more of these penalties are coming out to be incorrect despite being initially thought correct. I think it would have changed the entire game.