2020 Our Year For Sure Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Roman uses Clay to move safeties and linebackers around, which frees up space for Sammy and others. Clay is also used to force teams to disclose their coverage schemes pre-snap. Plus, he's a very good blocker in the running game. NONE OF THIS CAN BE SAID FOR SCOTT CHANDLER. And I do not care what the numbers say...he's vastly better than Chandler at making yards after catch. Not even comparable.
Kirby Jackson Posted February 20, 2016 Author Posted February 20, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position.
YoloinOhio Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position.i can't believe the debate is still going either. This is truly where the phrase "eye test" should prevail.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) And I do not care what the numbers say...he's vastly better than Chandler at making yards after catch. Not even comparable. How do you judge YAC besides their actual Yards After Catch??? YAC/AVG (Career Numbers In Yards) from 2011-2015 Scott Chandler 4.4 4.7 5.2 4.2 2.7 Charles Clay 5.2 4.8 5.5 4.7 4.8 Scott Chandlers career avg is 4.2 and Charles Clay avg is 5. Both are well below AVG in terms of YAC and are VERY comparable. Edited February 20, 2016 by BuffaloBillsForever
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position.Chandler vs gragg would be a better question. I'm interested in getting another versatile inline tight end. Might free Clay to be more hbacky on some snaps, and take advantage of that running ability. He runs with it better than he high points IMO, not surprising with his background. Agreed he's one of the better ones out there, tough to matchup with and can block. I hope we get more from him. How do you judge YAC besides their actual Yards After Catch??? YAC/AVG (Career Numbers In Yards) from 2011-2015 Scott Chandler 4.4 4.7 5.2 4.2 2.7 Charles Clay 5.2 4.8 5.5 4.7 4.8 Scott Chandlers career avg is 4.2 and Charles Clay avg is 5. Both are well below AVG in terms of YAC and are VERY comparable. I don't feel compelled to respond.
Thurman#1 Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 This just in, Scott Chandler is still a bad football player. Despite what many here believed to be a Pro Bowl year, Chandler has looked like the same unathletic borderline #2 TE that he was here. I don't know where everyone went that was predicting a monster year from a below average player but here's Mike Reiss to tell you more: http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4787682/exploring-why-te-scott-chandler-hasnt-had-more-impact-with-patriots Mike Reiss Article: Scott Chandler and Brady didn't have as much success or as many snaps as might have been predicted from preseason success, and I have three thoughts about possible reasons: Chandler's inconsistency catching the ball, the offensive line challenges called for a better blocker than Chandler who was never signed to be a blocker or perhaps defensive matchups dictated it. Kirby Jackson: This just in, Scott Chandler is still a bad football player, but here's Mike Reiss to tell you more. Man, that is some astonishingly bad paraphrasing there. That restructuring would entail the Bills taking on an INCREDIBLE potential amount of dead for an injury prone player that has stayed healthy ONCE in his career. The way this contract was structured was a disaster and restructuring it just makes it even worse considering the dead money involved and the more important pending signings in 2017-2019 like a franchise QB, franchise CB and your franchise WR. We will need every bit of cap space possible. You don't want to restructure clay. My guess is they do want to restructure Clay and that they do it, but you're right, it's taking a massive risk and making him essentially uncuttable for the next couple of years. Roman uses Clay to move safeties and linebackers around, which frees up space for Sammy and others. Clay is also used to force teams to disclose their coverage schemes pre-snap. Plus, he's a very good blocker in the running game. NONE OF THIS CAN BE SAID FOR SCOTT CHANDLER. Except for the part about blocking, that's mostly because of Roman rather than Clay. Clay's better. The question is how much better. And at least so far, Clay underperformed his Bills contract.
Saxum Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Agree about under preforming contract but that is usually what happens when you can not develop talent from draft and need to sign free agents. it is also the risk you take putting your money into one potential top shelf players rather than trying to find middle shelf players who can perform better either with better coaching, scheme or training.
3rdand12 Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Roman uses Clay to move safeties and linebackers around, which frees up space for Sammy and others. Clay is also used to force teams to disclose their coverage schemes pre-snap. Plus, he's a very good blocker in the running game. NONE OF THIS CAN BE SAID FOR SCOTT CHANDLER. But is Clay a venomous and dastardly red zone threat like Scott? Extra tall and lanky? Lumbering even? I think not. All this Clay fellow can do spread the field and dictate coverages He really is no Scott Chandler nor shall he ever compare. Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position. do you even watch the games Kirby? We neglected the position for decades Chandler vs gragg would be a better question. I'm interested in getting another versatile inline tight end. Might free Clay to be more hbacky on some snaps, and take advantage of that running ability. He runs with it better than he high points IMO, not surprising with his background. Agreed he's one of the better ones out there, tough to matchup with and can block. I hope we get more from him. I don't feel compelled to respond. but ya did ^ I agree with the italicized bit 110 percent Edited February 21, 2016 by 3rdand12
atlbillsfan1975 Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Clay is really good. I can't believe that this conversation has gone this way. We have one of the better TEs in the league after years of neglecting the position.Anyone debating Chandler vs Clay is misguided. Chandler was an average TE with marginal talent. For the Bills he was a big upgrade but the Bills have upgraded again with Clay. here is the thing, think about how many times we watched Chandler get run down and tackled or fumble the ball. That will not happen to Clay. Another year in the system with Taylor should pay dividends for Clay.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 But is Clay a venomous and dastardly red zone threat like Scott? Extra tall and lanky? Lumbering even? I think not. All this Clay fellow can do spread the field and dictate coverages He really is no Scott Chandler nor shall he ever compare. do you even watch the games Kirby? We neglected the position for decades but ya did ^ I agree with the italicized bit 110 percent Did I say that out loud?
Freddie's Dead Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Chandler 2014 Stats with Bills Rec 47Yds 497Avg 10.6LNG 37TD 3 Clay 2015 stats Rec 51Yds 528Avg 10.4LNG 40TD 3 So we basically paid $5M more in 2015 for the same production. Clay has a lot to prove to me. He definitely didn't outperform Chandler this year. And don't start with the blocking. We didn't pay all that money for Clay's blocking.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Chandler 2014 Stats with Bills Rec 47 Yds 497 Avg 10.6 LNG 37 TD 3 Clay 2015 stats Rec 51 Yds 528 Avg 10.4 LNG 40 TD 3 So we basically paid $5M more in 2015 for the same production. Clay has a lot to prove to me. He definitely didn't outperform Chandler this year. And don't start with the blocking. We didn't pay all that money for Clay's blocking. Clay is definitely a better blocker however Clay's career is A LOT more in line with Chandler than the top tight ends in the game.
Kirby Jackson Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Clay is definitely a better blocker however Clay's career is A LOT more in line with Chandler than the top tight ends in the game. Except when Clay was a FA 3 teams (with Cleveland also interested) were wanted him at a price tag of $38M. When Chandler was a FA he didn't get a visit and came back to the Bills on a small deal. Last year he signed a FA contract smaller than the one that Lee Smith signed. People around the league do not view them as similar players. Chandler's production was a direct result of his opportunity, not his skill set. Edited February 21, 2016 by Kirby Jackson
YoloinOhio Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Chandler 2014 Stats with Bills Rec 47 Yds 497 Avg 10.6 LNG 37 TD 3 Clay 2015 stats Rec 51 Yds 528 Avg 10.4 LNG 40 TD 3 So we basically paid $5M more in 2015 for the same production. Clay has a lot to prove to me. He definitely didn't outperform Chandler this year. And don't start with the blocking. We didn't pay all that money for Clay's blocking. How many games do those stats represent for each player? as I recall Chandler played in 16. Clay played in what, 12 or 13? I'm admittedly never a stat person when it comes to placing a value on players. This is another obvious reason why. Take the run blocking out if you wish though it is a tremendous value. Teams needed to defend the Bills offense much differently with Clay on the field than when he wasn't. He's a mismatch and can present problems for defenses. Teams didn't care whether Chandler was there or not. In fact they preferred him to be out there so they could focus their defense elsewhere. He scares no one. I know it's harder to look deeper and easy to find stats online but it is why he is a valuable TE and Chandler isn't. Edited February 21, 2016 by YoloinOhio
Saxum Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Clay is the better "top shelf" TE but it remains to be seen whether value which is production / cost is better. Cost has to include cost of substitute for games he can not play. I am not claiming he is injury prone but like arguments on Percy Harvin and Goodwin value goes down when when player can not stay on field.
Nanker Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Anybody here that doesn't expect The Bills Offense to be quite a bit better in 2016 than it was last season? Looking back at training camp and throughout the preseason they were still assembling the squad and didn't know who the hell the starters were, or even if they did, they didn't know when they would be able to actually play because of injuries and off-season surgeries. An offense takes some time to gel and Roman still hasn't installed his complete repertoire IIRC. I'm not calling for people to be patient, because that just invites the invocation of the reflexive "It's been 37 years without the playoffs and you want us to be PATIENT?" No. I'm just saying people could think a little harder about where the Offense really is. That's my opinion and you're entitled to it.
Freddie's Dead Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) How many games do those stats represent for each player? as I recall Chandler played in 16. Clay played in what, 12 or 13? I'm admittedly never a stat person when it comes to placing a value on players. This is another obvious reason why. Take the run blocking out if you wish though it is a tremendous value. Teams needed to defend the Bills offense much differently with Clay on the field than when he wasn't. He's a mismatch and can present problems for defenses. Teams didn't care whether Chandler was there or not. In fact they preferred him to be out there so they could focus their defense elsewhere. He scares no one. I know it's harder to look deeper and easy to find stats online but it is why he is a valuable TE and Chandler isn't. Clay played 13 games vs. Chandler's 16, so we could have expected Clay to produce 20% more than Chandler did in 2014. No argument that Clay gives more intangibles. I just expected more for our money. Everyone here said that he would blow away Chandler from a production standpoint. That didn't happen. As far as teams having to game plan for him, the Bills took about zero advantage of that. Edited February 22, 2016 by Freddie's Dead
Andrew Son Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Clay played 13 games vs. Chandler's 16, so we could have expected Clay to produce 20% more than Chandler did in 2014. No argument that Clay gives more intangibles. I just expected more for our money. Everyone here said that he would blow away Chandler from a production standpoint. That didn't happen. As far as teams having to game plan for him, the Bills took about zero advantage of that. Ridiculous argument. Completely different offense's with one having Brady
NoSaint Posted February 22, 2016 Posted February 22, 2016 Ridiculous argument. Completely different offense's with one having Brady i think you missed his argument, with chandler 2014 being orton
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