Dan Gross Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 Okay, I'm starting to see kinks in TD's armor. My impression was that he was against restructures, as it only pushed the problems out. So now we're faced with: --The Drew Bledsoe renegotiation, which some are reporting that TD wanted to re-renegotiate a year later. --The Moulds restructure, which will put us in the same boat next year (having to re-renegotiate or release). Unless there's an expectation that Moulds would retire after this year.... I don't like this idea of going to the same player two years in a row for concessions...
clumping platelets Posted February 16, 2005 Author Posted February 16, 2005 clump........are you just basing this info on the nflpa site? or do you have another source? 241080[/snapback] I get the salaries from NFLPA Bonus info from variety of media sources but I do have contact with someone on the net who is very knowledgable about all teams cap situations
clumping platelets Posted February 16, 2005 Author Posted February 16, 2005 Okay, I'm starting to see kinks in TD's armor. My impression was that he was against restructures, as it only pushed the problems out. So now we're faced with:--The Drew Bledsoe renegotiation, which some are reporting that TD wanted to re-renegotiate a year later. --The Moulds restructure, which will put us in the same boat next year (having to re-renegotiate or release). Unless there's an expectation that Moulds would retire after this year.... I don't like this idea of going to the same player two years in a row for concessions... 241204[/snapback] The only other time was in 2001 when he did a simple restructure of Jay Riemersma At least Drew's re-working led to a cut in future salaries. Moulds' does not
LabattBlue Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 Thanks for the misleading information. Rather than attempt to run you rown numbers why not trust in sources like Billsdaily. Your way off and for some reason not using the much publicized 85 mill cap for 2005. We are currently about 12 or 13 mill under and will go to 15 mill under with the Drew cut. 241054[/snapback] I for one appreciate clumps efforts. If you are such an expert on capology and convinced that clumps numbers are way off, let's see your detailed cap page.
clumping platelets Posted February 16, 2005 Author Posted February 16, 2005 Thanks for the misleading information. Rather than attempt to run you rown numbers why not trust in sources like Billsdaily. Your way off and for some reason not using the much publicized 85 mill cap for 2005. We are currently about 12 or 13 mill under and will go to 15 mill under with the Drew cut. 241054[/snapback] I have collaborated with Steve at BillsDaily a bit. In fact, he changed his numbers for Mike Williams because of the information I provided. The reported unadjusted salary cap has been placed anywhere between $85-87 million. I use $86 million. If the number is $85 million, wouldn't that lower the available cap space. Do you know what a "cap adjustment" is? Bills have averaged $1.4 million cap debit for the past 3 seasons. With in the increase in the number of incentive-laden deal (McGahee, M. Williams, Evans), it's likely the Bills will have a cap debit again in 2005. I have included an estimate of $1.5 million in my number All the media reports were from before the weekend. Mike Williams' salaries on NFLPA website were changed sometime between noon and midnight on Tuesday.
clumping platelets Posted February 16, 2005 Author Posted February 16, 2005 I for one appreciate clumps efforts. If you are such an expert on capology and convinced that clumps numbers are way off, let's see your detailed cap page. 241282[/snapback]
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 We are currently about 12 or 13 mill under and will go to 15 mill under with the Drew cut. 241054[/snapback] To be most accurate about the cap impacts of the Bledsoe cut, the numbers I see is that it will give us $2.3 million in cap room (so up to $14 or $15 million would be the most accurate statement with your numbers rather than assigning it the moest wishful number of $15 mill). However, to be fully accurate of the situation, the cut now places acquiring a credible back-up QB as first on our list of acquisitions. As important as upgrading the OL, getting a back-up RB for Willis and other items are, I think that there is now nothing more essential to the Bills than getting a credible back-up QB. This may change if we lose a starting LT or DT to FA, but overall our decision to go in another direction at QB (a reasonable one in my view) does have the real world impact of lessening our cap capabilty as the likely cost of acquiring a credible back-up (potential starter if JP is not ready yet) is likely to exceed $2.3 million.
GG Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 You cannot re-amortize previously paid signing bonus. The old amort ($2 million in 2005& 2006) comes off the books after 2006 and his amort in 2007 is only from the new signing bonus he just received 241076[/snapback] Are you sure about that? The CBA says that the signing bonus is amortized over the term of the player's contract. Thus, if the player's contract is extended, so should the amortization of the old signing bonus.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 Are you sure about that? The CBA says that the signing bonus is amortized over the term of the player's contract. Thus, if the player's contract is extended, so should the amortization of the old signing bonus. I'd side with clump. If no other reason than he's an expert, and under your view, a team could possibly be OVER the cap in previous years by giving a signing bonus in an extension that increases cap hits in those years.
Snorom Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 The only question I am asking is on Clumps salary cap page he has Mike WIlliams listed for a 2.1 million amortisized bonus and a 3.0 mil "other bonuses" What constitutes "other bonuses" http://www.billszone.com/mtlog/archives/20...ry_cap_page.php this site has us projected at 14.6 mil under http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/numbers.asp Billsdaily updated its cap page today and has us at 14.8 million under http://www.billsdaily.com/frontoffice/salarycap.shtml
GG Posted February 16, 2005 Posted February 16, 2005 I'd side with clump. If no other reason than he's an expert, and under your view, a team could possibly be OVER the cap in previous years by giving a signing bonus in an extension that increases cap hits in those years. 242424[/snapback] Huh? You lost me there. I've yet to see any validation that the original signing bonus is amortized only over the term of the original contract.
clumping platelets Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 The only question I am asking is on Clumps salary cap page he has Mike WIlliams listed for a 2.1 million amortisized bonus and a 3.0 mil "other bonuses" What constitutes "other bonuses" http://www.billszone.com/mtlog/archives/20...ry_cap_page.php this site has us projected at 14.6 mil under http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/numbers.asp Billsdaily updated its cap page today and has us at 14.8 million under http://www.billsdaily.com/frontoffice/salarycap.shtml 242450[/snapback] Other bonuses can be roster, reporting, workout, LTBE, NLTBE, etc......just no way of being able to seperate each type of bonus on the cap page. As I've stated before, my cap page at BillsZone has not been updated with the new information. Check my post (post #6) from Jan 29th.......HERE I said that McGahee and M. Williams may have salary escalators. McGahee's escalator is only for 2007. Was I not right about Mike Williams?
clumping platelets Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 Huh? You lost me there. I've yet to see any validation that the original signing bonus is amortized only over the term of the original contract. 242492[/snapback] Page 101 * For the purposes of the Salary Cap, any signing bonus given in connection with a contract extension entered into before the expiration of the player’s existing contract will be prorated over the remaining years of the unexpired contract together with its extension. The parties agree that, pursuant to the Collective Bargaining Agreement, the player shall always have the right to receive such a signing bonus at the time that the extension is executed, unless the player expressly agrees in the contract to defer payment of the extension bonus, in which case only the present value of the deferred payment, calculated in accordance with the method set forth in Article X, Paragraph G.1. (b) of the Stipulation and Settlement Agreement and Article XXIV, Section 7(a)(ii) of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, shall be prorated (unless the extension is executed within one year of the execution of the contract being extended, in which case the gross amount of the extension bonus shall be prorated). *Side Letter 9/21/93: Sec. 17 Moulds new signing bonus is prorated from the year received (2005) thru the year of the extension (2007). It also means that Moulds existing bonus amortization from the original $12 million signing bonus paid in 2001 is only amortized for 6 yrs beginning in 2001 and ending in 2006. Moulds amortization is as follows: 2005: $2 million PLUS $1,666,666 = $3,666,666 2006: $2 million PLUS $1,666,667 = $3,666,667 2007: $1,666,667 It's reported that his new cap number is $5,166,666 ($1.5 million salary, $2 million OLD amort. , $1,666,666 NEW amort) If OLD amortization could (BUT IT CANNOT) be spread out over the extended years, then his cap number would be $4.5 million ($1.5 million salary plus $3 million amort. )
John from Riverside Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 I trust Clumps numbers and appreciate the work he does... Question though.....wouldn't a simply restructuring of Mike Williams contract give us instant cap relief.... Based on what I saw last year.....I think Mike will be with us for some time.....so why not just go ahead and redo it now.....?
clumping platelets Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 I trust Clumps numbers and appreciate the work he does... Question though.....wouldn't a simply restructuring of Mike Williams contract give us instant cap relief.... Based on what I saw last year.....I think Mike will be with us for some time.....so why not just go ahead and redo it now.....? 242996[/snapback] By definition, "simple restructure" basically only re-works the year of the restructure. If the Bills did a "simple restructure" of MW....they would reduce his salary to the min for MW's credited seasons. That salary is $455,000, so $4 million - $455,000 = $3.545 million + $3 million roster bonus = $6.545 million. He has 3 yrs remaining on his original rookie deal, so $6.545 million/3 yrs = $2,181,666/yr. His new cap number for 2005 would be $4,806,666 for a cap savings of $4,363,334 HOWEVER, you just added $2,181,666 bonus amortization to both 2006 & 2007 which cannot be changed. Each year would have $4,351,666 just for the bonus amortization. His cap number in 2006 would be $11,351,666 and in 2007 it would be $9.351 million Any new deal MUST be an extension so new signing bonus can be prorated throughout the length of the deal. (again, the old amort cannot be re-amortized)
Nanker Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 You cannot re-amortize previously paid signing bonus. The old amort ($2 million in 2005& 2006) comes off the books after 2006 and his amort in 2007 is only from the new signing bonus he just received 241076[/snapback] Thanks, and "Ouch!" Doesn't bode well for 2006.
clumping platelets Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 Thanks, and "Ouch!" Doesn't bode well for 2006. 243047[/snapback] Actually, 2006 looks good
GG Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 Page 101 * For the purposes of the Salary Cap, any signing bonus given in connection with a contract extension entered into before the expiration of the player’s existing contract will be prorated over the remaining years of the unexpired contract together with its extension. The parties agree that, pursuant to the Collective Bargaining Agreement, the player shall always have the right to receive such a signing bonus at the time that the extension is executed, unless the player expressly agrees in the contract to defer payment of the extension bonus, in which case only the present value of the deferred payment, calculated in accordance with the method set forth in Article X, Paragraph G.1. (b) of the Stipulation and Settlement Agreement and Article XXIV, Section 7(a)(ii) of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, shall be prorated (unless the extension is executed within one year of the execution of the contract being extended, in which case the gross amount of the extension bonus shall be prorated). *Side Letter 9/21/93: Sec. 17 ........ If OLD amortization could (BUT IT CANNOT) be spread out over the extended years, then his cap number would be $4.5 million ($1.5 million salary plus $3 million amort. ) 242982[/snapback] Note that the bolded text refers to a signing bonus with respect to an extension, not the original signing bonus. The CBA is silent on the specific amortization of the original signing bonus in cases where there is a contract extension. To me, it seems the intent is to allow teams flexibility to manage their cap by electing to either A - amortize the original signing bonus over the term of the original contract, or B - amortize it over the term of the extension. Applicable Language: Section 7. (b) Signing Bonuses. (i) Proration. The total amount of any signing bonus shall be prorated over the term of the Player Contract in determining Team and Player Salary, ... Looking up definition of Player Contract: NFL PLAYER CONTRACT Section 1. Form: The NFL Player Contract form attached hereto as Appendix C will be used for all player signings. This form cannot be amended without the approval of the Management Council and the NFLPA. ....... Section 2. Term: The NFL Player Contract shall be modified to expire on the last day of the last League Year subject to such Contract. There is nothing in the definition of Player Contract that distinguishes between an original contract and an extension. In fact, you could read that the length of the cobtract is determined by modifications, as per Sec 2. of the Player Contract definition. Maybe there's confusion over original vs extended contracts, based on this: Sec. 7 (b) Signing Bonuses. (iii) Prior Signing Bonuses. All signing bonuses from League Years prior to 1993 will be prorated over the term of the original Player Contracts and included in Team Salary in the 1993 League Year and thereafter. That clause refers to pre-93 contracts only. Just to be proper, I am not questioning your numbers. I'm uestioning the rule that teams must prorate original signing bonuses over the original contract. IMHO, Bills are amortizing Moulds' deal over the original term because they want to preserve more flexibility for next year.
clumping platelets Posted February 17, 2005 Author Posted February 17, 2005 http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp Question 1.8b If a player decides to renegotiate his contract, how does the bonus money he received in the original contract count against the cap? Answer:If a player renegotiates his contract and gets a new signing bonus, the new signing bonus is prorated over the remaining years of the original contract AND over the extension. The allocation of the original signing bonus remains unchanged. For example, Player X is currently in the third year of a four-year deal (1999–2002) that paid him a $1 million signing bonus. In 2001, Player X renegotiates his deal extending his contract to the 2004 season while getting a $2 million signing bonus. The original $1 million signing bonus is allocated at $250,000 per year over 2001 and 2002 just as it would be if there were no renegotiations. However, the new $2 million signing bonus is allocated at $500,000 per year over the remaining two years of the original contract (2001–2002) and the extended two years (2003–2004).
GG Posted February 17, 2005 Posted February 17, 2005 http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp Question 1.8b If a player decides to renegotiate his contract, how does the bonus money he received in the original contract count against the cap? Answer:If a player renegotiates his contract and gets a new signing bonus, the new signing bonus is prorated over the remaining years of the original contract AND over the extension. The allocation of the original signing bonus remains unchanged. 243431[/snapback] While I generally don't like to rely on fan sites for interpretations of legal contracts, the commish is right. I confirmed with NFLPA that the original bonus is prorated over the original contract. But, when I asked them about the specific language in the CBA that could be interpreted to allow teams flexibility in the amortization, the answer was, "It doesn't matter what the CBA says, everybody amortizes the original bonus over the original contract." Sounds like an opportunity for a creative cap manager.
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