Is Rex stubbornly imposing his scheme on wrong players?

[filthymcnasty08]

Just another manifestation of Ralph's demise. You can switch coaches and therefore schemes (as coaches get to where they are coaching and calling their own schemes) but you cannot change the roster as quickly. When Pegs took over we finally had solid long term ownership had a chance to go for it with coaching. We went with Rex and Roman and when we did, the roster inherited two of the most unusual and complex schemes in football on both sides. Rex believes he can be more successful forcing the ball out extemely quickly with pressure and all but abandons the coverage sack, b/c coverage is in man. So subtract a couple coverage sacks per game. Gone, not coming back.

 

This D makes the corners look great, b/c they are looking to jump the hot routes and attack everything else because the ball is out so fast and is not accurate half the time. Just his philosophy; run stuff on 1st down, then pressure on 2nd and 3rd; the front seven don't get sacks b/c the ball is gone before they could conceivably get there. Rex made Revis , but sacrificed coverage sacks doing it. His defenses likes but doesn't absolutely require sack artists; what he wants it push and quick pressure and will bring 5, 6 or 7 guys to get it -- doesn;t care what their names are.

 

Rex is the defensive version of Gailey; he uses scheme to get results; the players don't necessarily need to be pro bowl quality; i swear Gailey could score on an NFL defense with 11 college players. He was scoring 30+ a game with Donald Jones and David Nelson for crying out loud. Its all in the scheme and play calling.

 

Rex's big plays are pass breakups on hurried throws and the occasional bum rush/pass rush induced splash plays (Hughes' sacks yesterday and Browns pick six in Miami).

 

Now we have pro bowl 1st teamers in the front seven... well those guys were brought in under a 4 man rush/coverage sack concept that no longer applies. That's what happens when you are kings of suck for 15 years with a death bed owner and therefore change scheme/ flip low quality coaches every 2 years. Now for the first time since Wade Phillips we have two really brilliant , out of the box scheme coaches who have proven approaches . No one should complain.

 

We do have guys who are over-qualified/paid for what they are now being asked to do. Is what it is. that will shake out over time as contracts expire . Eg. I see IK replacing Mario next year, no question. IK is the kind of spare part who does exactly what Rex needs: quick hard pressure... Hughes is another, Kyle is another. Dareus is what Rex had in NY with Kris Jenkins, albeit at a very high price. Its all good. We are looking too far under the covers. Rex will take a quick pressure sacks, but most downs he WANTS the ball to be thrown, just very quickly, very inaccurately and once in awhile to US. See Bortles' wounded duck in the London game; pressure induced crap throw that I could have caught.

Patience people. Party just getting started. go bills

You and your rational thought process......pheh!

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Rex needs to impose a scheme on how to avoid penalties. At this point of the season, good luck with that. The Bills will go nowhere so long as they lead the league in penalties, let alone possibly break the record for a season. Rex, however, may go somewhere.

[Eyeball]

Forget who it was but funny quote from one of the pre game guys, “Rex has forgotten more about football than this whole D will ever know.”

[BrooklynBills]

Just another manifestation of Ralph's demise. You can switch coaches and therefore schemes (as coaches get to where they are coaching and calling their own schemes) but you cannot change the roster as quickly. When Pegs took over we finally had solid long term ownership had a chance to go for it with coaching. We went with Rex and Roman and when we did, the roster inherited two of the most unusual and complex schemes in football on both sides. Rex believes he can be more successful forcing the ball out extemely quickly with pressure and all but abandons the coverage sack, b/c coverage is in man. So subtract a couple coverage sacks per game. Gone, not coming back.

 

This D makes the corners look great, b/c they are looking to jump the hot routes and attack everything else because the ball is out so fast and is not accurate half the time. Just his philosophy; run stuff on 1st down, then pressure on 2nd and 3rd; the front seven don't get sacks b/c the ball is gone before they could conceivably get there. Rex made Revis , but sacrificed coverage sacks doing it. His defenses likes but doesn't absolutely require sack artists; what he wants it push and quick pressure and will bring 5, 6 or 7 guys to get it -- doesn;t care what their names are.

 

Rex is the defensive version of Gailey; he uses scheme to get results; the players don't necessarily need to be pro bowl quality; i swear Gailey could score on an NFL defense with 11 college players. He was scoring 30+ a game with Donald Jones and David Nelson for crying out loud. Its all in the scheme and play calling.

 

Rex's big plays are pass breakups on hurried throws and the occasional bum rush/pass rush induced splash plays (Hughes' sacks yesterday and Browns pick six in Miami).

 

Now we have pro bowl 1st teamers in the front seven... well those guys were brought in under a 4 man rush/coverage sack concept that no longer applies. That's what happens when you are kings of suck for 15 years with a death bed owner and therefore change scheme/ flip low quality coaches every 2 years. Now for the first time since Wade Phillips we have two really brilliant , out of the box scheme coaches who have proven approaches . No one should complain.

 

We do have guys who are over-qualified/paid for what they are now being asked to do. Is what it is. that will shake out over time as contracts expire . Eg. I see IK replacing Mario next year, no question. IK is the kind of spare part who does exactly what Rex needs: quick hard pressure... Hughes is another, Kyle is another. Dareus is what Rex had in NY with Kris Jenkins, albeit at a very high price. Its all good. We are looking too far under the covers. Rex will take a quick pressure sacks, but most downs he WANTS the ball to be thrown, just very quickly, very inaccurately and once in awhile to US. See Bortles' wounded duck in the London game; pressure induced crap throw that I could have caught.

Patience people. Party just getting started. go bills

This is a good summation of what's happening and will happen.

 

As soon as we hired Rex, I thought it would be the eventual end for Mario here. Too expensive for what he does and will be asked to do. Dareus on the other hand is a perfect Rex DL guy. Can play anywhere on the line. We need LBs who are sure tacklers and the David Harris rumors from the offseason make a lot of sense now.

 

I would expect the Bills to go after a true NT which would free up Dareus to be a more multiple DL, a FS who can play centerfield, and a true inside LB. I would expect Mario's money will go directly into the OL.

 

That's why I really liked the Rex hire. It allows you scheme and plug and play guys on defense(this is what NE has done) and spend your real money on offense where consistent talented personnel can lead to consistent results more so than spending the bulk of your money on defense where success varies year to year historically and it is harder to keep a great unit together longer.

Edited November 9, 2015 by BrooklynBills

[Southern Bills Fan]

The thing that I am confused about is the schemes. Everyone keeps saying that the players have to get used to Rex's schemes. Pettine was his D coordinator in NY so shouldn't they be similar? Brown and Bradham were rising stars and now they look totally lost. Even when our D doesn't get scored on, they still give up 30-40 yards of field position and are on the field for 5-6 minutes. It seems like they only get a 3 and out once or twice a game.

[12Kachy]

I thought the Offense was great this weekend but the Defense is still suspect. I agree with some of you too; the LBs look horrible. Totally lost out there and M. Williams looks slow for some reason. Hughes finally got loose and made some plays and got hits on the QB. So maybe this is the turn around point for the Def. T.Taylor made history yesterday; I declare the curse of the Bills broken. I think the only team who plays in NY, will beat the team from NJ on Thursday.

[The Big Cat]

The thing that I am confused about is the schemes. Everyone keeps saying that the players have to get used to Rex's schemes. Pettine was his D coordinator in NY so shouldn't they be similar? Brown and Bradham were rising stars and now they look totally lost. Even when our D doesn't get scored on, they still give up 30-40 yards of field position and are on the field for 5-6 minutes. It seems like they only get a 3 and out once or twice a game.

 

Good question. Short answer: Rex/Pettine not the same as Rex/Thurman.

 

Had a nice back and forth with a guy on Twitter about it. He knows much more than me!

[Utah John]

I've said this before. Rex Ryan has done what no offensive coordinator in the NFL could do the past two years: neutralize the Bills' pass rush.

[eball]

 

 

 

The Dolphins just ran as much of their offense wide as possible.

 

Have people not seen enough of Rex D to know that the intent is to congest the middle of the field with defenders?

 

Running everything wide yesterday took the DE's out of the play and forced downhill LB's like Brown and Bradham to go sideways and they aren't really athletic enough to make those plays in space.

 

Not sure why so many people insist on remaining in denial about this.

 

Expecting those guys to cover the field sideline to sideline is like expecting your cover corner to make 10 tackles per game in run support.

 

Bradham and Brown were not elite draft prospects for a reason......they are limited athletically.

 

Schwartz D funneled the run TO them.....where they could just fill the gap and do what they do....stop runners head on.

 

In the event that teams tried to run wide......DE's were either there to help or had already forced the play backwards/wider which made it easier for Brown/Bradham to play catch up.

 

The answer to this thread question is YES!!!!!!! This scheme is putting 8-9 players in lesser positions of impact on every snap.

 

It's ugly and incredibly wasteful.

 

If everything you say is true, why wouldn't smart coaches see it? Is it your belief that Rex is stupid or stubborn enough to ignore the film, or that he would think he has the leeway to "waste" a season until he can get the players he wants/needs?

[The Big Cat]

 

If everything you say is true, why wouldn't smart coaches see it? Is it your belief that Rex is stupid or stubborn enough to ignore the film, or that he would think he has the leeway to "waste" a season until he can get the players he wants/needs?

 

Either explanation, as it always is with the "blame the coaches crowd," is far more convoluted than "players need to execute."

[todd]

The players did pretty well under Pettine, who employs a similar scheme. That's what confuses me.

[Utah John]

For those who argue that the Bills are transitioning toward what Ryan wants to do, and it will take a year or two to replace great players who don't fit his scheme, with unknown players who do fit his scheme ... I get that he has a plan for the future, but the games are being played THIS YEAR with this year's players. Are we supposed to think this season is just an extended pre-season for 2016? That Ryan is just using 16 regular season games to evaluate how well the talent on the field will work once he gets the guys he wants in place?

 

I'll tell anyone who'll listen, that last year's defense led by Jim Schwartz, along with this year's offense led by Greg Roman, and led by a less egotistical team manager and leader as head coach, would be challenging for the division lead, not just hoping for a wild card.

 

I hope I'm wrong but this defense is playing like crap, and even weak offenses are shredding it. The defensive players are frustrated and look like they're giving up, a lot of the time. What a shame because the offense is finally hitting on most cylinders, and the kicking game is good. The problem isn't the players, it's Rex Ryan.

 

Example: Early in the season, when a team tried running up the middle, I expected the Bills to stuff it, sometimes for a loss, sometimes for a yard gain. Now when teams run up the middle, the Bills clog the area but "stuffing" now consists of the pile falling forward for three yards. Either Kyle Williams is vastly better than his replacements (granted, that's possible) or Dareus and Brown aren't free to get to the runner. I think Dareus is being directed to take on two blockers instead of penetrating to get to the runner, and two huge O lineman will push even Dareus backward. This ain't a lot of fun for Dareus and it also ain't working.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Utah John

[The Big Cat]

The players did pretty well under Pettine, who employs a similar scheme. That's what confuses me.

 

No he doesn't.

For those who argue that the Bills are transitioning toward what Ryan wants to do, and it will take a year or two to replace great players who don't fit his scheme, with unknown players who do fit his scheme ... I get that he has a plan for the future, but the games are being played THIS YEAR with this year's players. Are we supposed to think this season is just an extended pre-season for 2016? That Ryan is just using 16 regular season games to evaluate how well the talent on the field will work once he gets the guys he wants in place?

 

I'll tell anyone who'll listen, that last year's defense led by Jim Schwartz, along with this year's offense led by Greg Roman, and led by a less egotistical team manager and leader as head coach, would be challenging for the division lead, not just hoping for a wild card.

 

I hope I'm wrong but this defense is playing like crap, and even weak offenses are shredding it. The defensive players are frustrated and look like they're giving up, a lot of the time. What a shame because the offense is finally hitting on most cylinders, and the kicking game is good. The problem isn't the players, it's Rex Ryan.

 

[Rockinon]

Buffalo has a talented defensive line. We saw it not only last year but the year before. The defensive linemen only had one gap assignment to attack. This year everyone is responsible for 2 gaps. What this does is improve the run D. What it doesn't do is allow these attacking defensive linemen to attack the QB. Sorry, but the this scheme sucks. You have some of the best one gap defensive linemen in the league and you then tell them to cover 2 gaps. To make matters even worse, you ask these guys to drop back into coverage.

 

These are scary guys when they are coming at you. For QBs, it's a humongous relief when they are running away from you and dropping into coverage. Stupidest scheme I've ever seen.

[Bills Fan of St Augustine]

Should have been obvious to Rex. If it ain't broke don't fix it. So why did he try? Now he needs to fix it and soon!

Buffalo has a talented defensive line. We saw it not only last year but the year before. The defensive linemen only had one gap assignment to attack. This year everyone is responsible for 2 gaps. What this does is improve the run D. What it doesn't do is allow these attacking defensive linemen to attack the QB. Sorry, but the this scheme sucks. You have some of the best one gap defensive linemen in the league and you then tell them to cover 2 gaps. To make matters even worse, you ask these guys to drop back into coverage.

 

These are scary guys when they are coming at you. For QBs, it's a humongous relief when they are running away from you and dropping into coverage. Stupidest scheme I've ever seen.

I agree. The only minor issue I would take with your post is that the two gap improves run D. On average that may be true or in theory, but when DL penetrate into the backfield consistently in the one gap, the opportunity for hits behind the line of scrimmage increases enormously. Its simply a better defense for the talent level (and compensation) we have on the DL.

[The Big Cat]

Buffalo has a talented defensive line. We saw it not only last year but the year before. The defensive linemen only had one gap assignment to attack. This year everyone is responsible for 2 gaps. What this does is improve the run D. What it doesn't do is allow these attacking defensive linemen to attack the QB. Sorry, but the this scheme sucks. You have some of the best one gap defensive linemen in the league and you then tell them to cover 2 gaps. To make matters even worse, you ask these guys to drop back into coverage.

 

These are scary guys when they are coming at you. For QBs, it's a humongous relief when they are running away from you and dropping into coverage. Stupidest scheme I've ever seen.

 

 

Should have been obvious to Rex. If it ain't broke don't fix it. So why did he try? Now he needs to fix it and soon!

I agree. The only minor issue I would take with your post is that the two gap improves run D. On average that may be true or in theory, but when DL penetrate into the backfield consistently in the one gap, the opportunity for hits behind the line of scrimmage increases enormously. Its simply a better defense for the talent level (and compensation) we have on the DL.

 

I personally believe it's the height of narcism when fans profess to know more about the game than coaches.

[Tenhigh]

 

 

 

I personally believe it's the height of narcism when fans profess to know more about the game than coaches.

Especially the egotistical coaches, they are the worst lol.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

If everything you say is true, why wouldn't smart coaches see it? Is it your belief that Rex is stupid or stubborn enough to ignore the film, or that he would think he has the leeway to "waste" a season until he can get the players he wants/needs?

 

 

There is no question about whether it is true or not.

 

It's on video.

 

It's easy to be ignorant and just say that the players need to execute.

 

The Bills primary front.....Mario,Kyle,Dareus,Hughes,Brown,Bradham.......5 of those 6 were drafted to play in attacking 1 gap, 4-3 defenses.

 

Rex is committed to making his scheme work.

 

He has the corners he needs and he will eventually start getting better than awful results......but they gave away 3 games defensively already and it really was not necessary.

 

Roman and Tyrod have really bailed Rex sh*tty D out big this season just to get .500 despite 5 of the first 8 at home.

Edited November 9, 2015 by #BADOL

[yungmack]

After all the grousing, after Rex saying he hears what the players are saying, after a long beer break for Rex to re-think things, the D looked depressingly identical to what it has all year. Leaves me wondering if this team has a ghost of a chance to win against the good teams.