Is Rex stubbornly imposing his scheme on wrong players?

[Dopey]

The answer is yes.

 

Firing Schwartz was the first sign.

 

If Rex really were a defensive mastermind he could have spent this year and let Schwartz continue with his league leading dominant defense and Rex could take that year and learn Schwartz' system and spend time with Roman.

 

Rex thinks he knows everything and is jamming a system that doesn't allow our penetrating D-Line to penetrate.

 

It is the main reason I'm not bought in with Rex. Love to have a beer or 10 with him but don't really think he has that continuing learning attitude that other great coaches seem to have.

I think Schwartz left on his own, Rex didn't fire him. As for the beer and his learning attitude, you're going to teach him what!?!?

[Chandler#81]

Not sure if this fits here, but I was disgusted with the linebacker play of Brown and Bradham yesterday. I once considered them up and coming stars, but they were putrid, constantly missing tackles in the open field and getting boxed out by fat linemen. What happened to B&B?

The plays I saw had them in a desperate position as the defensive scheme left the screen area wide open and they rushed to the area knowing they were the only Bill in the vicinity who could stop it short. They had bad angles coming from their position in the scheme and had to dive low to try to trip the feet. NFL running backs are supposed to make the 1st guy miss. The problem was, there wasn't a 2nd guy anywhere around..

[BaltimoreFanBills]

One thing to point about about a more complex D scheme is that Spy-gate was less effective. I read an article that claimed the reason why the Bills and Dolphins were so unsuccessful against the Patriots is because there schemes were very simplistic. And the reason why the Jets always played the Patriots tough is because of the complexity. Just an argument as to why sometimes complex is good at times and why the K.I.S.S. theory may not work.

 

IMO, since the simply 4 man rush can work at times, I think a good blend would be the best for our defense.

Edited November 9, 2015 by BaltimoreFanBills

[BADOLBILZ]

Everything was misdirection and screens today. That's on he players to read react and tackle.

 

Obviously they did a poor job of it.

 

 

 

The Dolphins just ran as much of their offense wide as possible.

 

Have people not seen enough of Rex D to know that the intent is to congest the middle of the field with defenders?

 

Running everything wide yesterday took the DE's out of the play and forced downhill LB's like Brown and Bradham to go sideways and they aren't really athletic enough to make those plays in space.

 

Not sure why so many people insist on remaining in denial about this.

 

Expecting those guys to cover the field sideline to sideline is like expecting your cover corner to make 10 tackles per game in run support.

 

Bradham and Brown were not elite draft prospects for a reason......they are limited athletically.

 

Schwartz D funneled the run TO them.....where they could just fill the gap and do what they do....stop runners head on.

 

In the event that teams tried to run wide......DE's were either there to help or had already forced the play backwards/wider which made it easier for Brown/Bradham to play catch up.

 

The answer to this thread question is YES!!!!!!! This scheme is putting 8-9 players in lesser positions of impact on every snap.

 

It's ugly and incredibly wasteful.

[Not at the table Karlos]

Yes. Mario trying to anchor as a NT was embarrassing. The entire last dolphin drive of the second quarter Mario was playing in the DT roll. Corbin Bryant covering Lamar miller in the red zone. Wtf? I don't understand, rex loves to pressure quarterbacks. Our front 4 is one of the best pass rushing units in the NFL but we use them to stop the run.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Sorry for another Bills' D thread, but I want this specific question out there for discussion among some of the brighter minds on this board.

 

I read a lot, follow a bunch of folks on Twitter, and there seems to be a building consensus that the scheme Rex is trying to employ is not the best fit for the Bills' personnel -- specifically, the D line and LBs. Using Dareus as a space-hogging NT, for example. Putting Kyle at rush end. His scheme works, but only with the right personnel.

 

This week the move to put Hughes at LDE was actually a good one, but what do others think? I'm not a coach and don't claim to be -- I don't study film -- but it seems to me the talent is there to be a special D but all they've been thus far is perfectly average.

 

What I hear is Rex talking about giving the players the best opportunity to succeed and fitting the scheme to the players. A #3 or #5D was disappointing.

 

What I see is week after week, the players are not playing up to the standard they set last year under Schwartz.

 

I think Rex isn't putting his game plan and scheme where his mouth is. It's lip service. He's running a scheme that depends upon a quality of LB we don't have and uses our DL in a way that is not their best.

 

That said and somewhat of an aside - I love how everything becomes someone's "ego" when it crosses Sully's pen.

[1B4IDie]

Not scheme, IMO. It's execution. How do you let Lamar Miller burn you for like a 100 yards on screens is beyond me. In the past, it seemed like our dline and lbs read those plays better.

I think it is scheme because he happens so consistently.

 

If the initial defender doesn't make a picture perfect tackle on the screen then the screen goes for 20+ yards.

 

It is mind boggling how the other 10 players are off doing something else.

 

If it were once or twice I would say it is execution but it happened against the Colts, Pats, Giants, Jags, Dolphins, Cinci.

 

They have to be something schematically that puts all of these players on an island. It can't happen so consistently that is is poor execution every time.

[The Big Cat]

Right. Rex has no clue how to use Dareus. You people are insane.

 

EXECUTE

I think it is scheme because he happens so consistently.

If the initial defender doesn't make a picture perfect tackle on the screen then the screen goes for 20+ yards.

It is mind boggling how the other 10 players are off doing something else.

If it were once or twice I would say it is execution but it happened against the Colts, Pats, Giants, Jags, Dolphins, Cinci.

They have to be something schematically that puts all of these players on an island. It can't happen so consistently that is is poor execution every time.

Bull ****. PLAYERS have to execute.

 

It's a scheme that has worked CONSISTENTLY since before many of our defensive players were even in high school.

 

Players have to figure it out. Period.

[1B4IDie]

Not sure if this fits here, but I was disgusted with the linebacker play of Brown and Bradham yesterday. I once considered them up and coming stars, but they were putrid, constantly missing tackles in the open field and getting boxed out by fat linemen. What happened to B&B?

 

 

The plays I saw had them in a desperate position as the defensive scheme left the screen area wide open and they rushed to the area knowing they were the only Bill in the vicinity who could stop it short. They had bad angles coming from their position in the scheme and had to dive low to try to trip the feet. NFL running backs are supposed to make the 1st guy miss. The problem was, there wasn't a 2nd guy anywhere around..

Exactly where are the gang tackles? Where are the other defenders.

 

If one man misses a one on one tackle than there is no other defender for 20 yards.

 

Mind Boggling!

 

It happens so consistently.

[Nihilarian]

 

 

 

The Dolphins just ran as much of their offense wide as possible.

 

Have people not seen enough of Rex D to know that the intent is to congest the middle of the field with defenders?

 

Running everything wide yesterday took the DE's out of the play and forced downhill LB's like Brown and Bradham to go sideways and they aren't really athletic enough to make those plays in space.

 

Not sure why so many people insist on remaining in denial about this.

 

Expecting those guys to cover the field sideline to sideline is like expecting your cover corner to make 10 tackles per game in run support.

 

Bradham and Brown were not elite draft prospects for a reason......they are limited athletically.

 

Schwartz D funneled the run TO them.....where they could just fill the gap and do what they do....stop runners head on.

 

In the event that teams tried to run wide......DE's were either there to help or had already forced the play backwards/wider which made it easier for Brown/Bradham to play catch up.

 

The answer to this thread question is YES!!!!!!! This scheme is putting 8-9 players in lesser positions of impact on every snap.

 

It's ugly and incredibly wasteful.

Oh, and I agree!

 

To the bolded, Fans will be fans, and most only focus on the QB and wins.

 

 

The Dolphins had almost 400 yards of total offense with Talleywhacker 309 yards passing, and 16 first downs passing. The Bills gave the Dolphins 7 first downs by penalty with 13 for 94 yards against Buffalo. The defense only two sacks against a bad phins line. I'm dreading the thought of what Brady will do to this defense again in two weeks.

 

Sadly that even with the by week, and with that extra time off it wasn't the defense that changed or saved the day. Instead it was the injured offensive skill players returning. McCoy 112 yards rushing, and a TD. Karlos 110 yards rushing 2 TD's. Sammy 8 rec for 168 yards and 1 TD.

 

 

I would have never thought that Ryan would force his defensive scheme on a team better suited to run something different. A my way or the highway type guy.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Nihilarian

[The Big Cat]

Exactly where are the gang tackles? Where are the other defenders.

 

If one man misses a one on one tackle than there is no other defender for 20 yards.

 

Mind Boggling!

 

It happens so consistently.

 

Well, again, the linebackers are subpar (or at least playing as such) and our safeties (as I've been clamoring about for weeks) are completely over the heads with Aaron Williams out.

 

So, there's at least four guys who should be making the pursuits you're asking about.

[bananathumb]

 

 

 

The Dolphins just ran as much of their offense wide as possible.

 

Have people not seen enough of Rex D to know that the intent is to congest the middle of the field with defenders?

 

Running everything wide yesterday took the DE's out of the play and forced downhill LB's like Brown and Bradham to go sideways and they aren't really athletic enough to make those plays in space.

 

Not sure why so many people insist on remaining in denial about this.

 

Expecting those guys to cover the field sideline to sideline is like expecting your cover corner to make 10 tackles per game in run support.

 

Bradham and Brown were not elite draft prospects for a reason......they are limited athletically.

 

Schwartz D funneled the run TO them.....where they could just fill the gap and do what they do....stop runners head on.

 

In the event that teams tried to run wide......DE's were either there to help or had already forced the play backwards/wider which made it easier for Brown/Bradham to play catch up.

 

The answer to this thread question is YES!!!!!!! This scheme is putting 8-9 players in lesser positions of impact on every snap.

 

It's ugly and incredibly wasteful.

 

Good post.

[dpberr]

Patriot BIll is the scariest coach in the league because he has no "brand" other than beating everybody's collective asses. He uses whatever offense and whatever defense works best against his opponent. He has capitalized on the ego-driven coaches in the league that insist on "their" way without deviation. You can scheme and plan against the known.

 

You watch Patriot games this year? Every one of their games is completely unique strategy-wise.

 

The Spurs do the same thing in basketball. Popovich is not hesitant to change strategy whatsoever.

 

Elite sports franchises have that in common. The only "brand" that matters is winning. The strategy is always flexible.

[The Big Cat]

Patriot BIll is the scariest coach in the league because he has no "brand" other than beating everybody's collective asses. He uses whatever offense and whatever defense works best against his opponent. He has capitalized on the ego-driven coaches in the league that insist on "their" way without deviation. You can scheme and plan against the known.

 

You watch Patriot games this year? Every one of their games is completely unique strategy-wise.

 

The Spurs do the same thing in basketball. Popovich is not hesitant to change strategy whatsoever.

 

Elite sports franchises have that in common. The only "brand" that matters is winning. The strategy is always flexible.

 

Yeah, this works great for teams that have players that consistently execute, no matter what they're asked to do.

[KOKBILLS]

Sorry for another Bills' D thread, but I want this specific question out there for discussion among some of the brighter minds on this board.

 

I read a lot, follow a bunch of folks on Twitter, and there seems to be a building consensus that the scheme Rex is trying to employ is not the best fit for the Bills' personnel -- specifically, the D line and LBs. Using Dareus as a space-hogging NT, for example. Putting Kyle at rush end. His scheme works, but only with the right personnel.

 

This week the move to put Hughes at LDE was actually a good one, but what do others think? I'm not a coach and don't claim to be -- I don't study film -- but it seems to me the talent is there to be a special D but all they've been thus far is perfectly average.

 

I think this issue is the core of the problems on Defense...I really don't think it can be argued at this point...Rex's scheme is just not taking with these guys overall...Remember...They switched schemes from Pettine to Schwartz and thrived...So really...What else can it be? They are nowhere near the Defense the roster would indicate they should be...

Edited November 9, 2015 by KOKBILLS

[KOKBILLS]

Fans will be fans, and most only focus on the QB and wins.

 

 

The Dolphins had almost 400 yards of total offense with Talleywhacker 309 yards passing, and 16 first downs passing. The Bills gave the Dolphins 7 first downs by penalty with 13 for 94 yards against Buffalo. The defense only two sacks against a bad phins line. I'm dreading the thought of what Brady will do to this defense again in two weeks.

 

Sadly that even with the by week, and with that extra time off it wasn't the defense that changed or saved the day. Instead it was the injured offensive skill players returning. McCoy 112 yards rushing, and a TD. Karlos 110 yards rushing 2 TD's. Sammy 8 rec for 168 yards and 1 TD.

 

Exactly...

 

If we had the Defense Rex promised, and our Offense stays healthy we would be a legit contender...Period...

[billsfan89]

For sure Rex's defense just doesn't look as good as the previous years defense. However I do think Rex can adjust the defense to work better with the players. He is a very good defensive coach and if he is indeed a defensive guru then after getting half a season under your belt with the team then you better make the needed adjustments to what you are doing.

[8-8 Forever?]

Just another manifestation of Ralph's demise. You can switch coaches and therefore schemes (as coaches get to where they are coaching and calling their own schemes) but you cannot change the roster as quickly. When Pegs took over we finally had solid long term ownership had a chance to go for it with coaching. We went with Rex and Roman and when we did, the roster inherited two of the most unusual and complex schemes in football on both sides. Rex believes he can be more successful forcing the ball out extemely quickly with pressure and all but abandons the coverage sack, b/c coverage is in man. So subtract a couple coverage sacks per game. Gone, not coming back.

 

This D makes the corners look great, b/c they are looking to jump the hot routes and attack everything else because the ball is out so fast and is not accurate half the time. Just his philosophy; run stuff on 1st down, then pressure on 2nd and 3rd; the front seven don't get sacks b/c the ball is gone before they could conceivably get there. Rex made Revis , but sacrificed coverage sacks doing it. His defenses likes but doesn't absolutely require sack artists; what he wants it push and quick pressure and will bring 5, 6 or 7 guys to get it -- doesn;t care what their names are.

 

Rex is the defensive version of Gailey; he uses scheme to get results; the players don't necessarily need to be pro bowl quality; i swear Gailey could score on an NFL defense with 11 college players. He was scoring 30+ a game with Donald Jones and David Nelson for crying out loud. Its all in the scheme and play calling.

 

Rex's big plays are pass breakups on hurried throws and the occasional bum rush/pass rush induced splash plays (Hughes' sacks yesterday and Browns pick six in Miami).

 

Now we have pro bowl 1st teamers in the front seven... well those guys were brought in under a 4 man rush/coverage sack concept that no longer applies. That's what happens when you are kings of suck for 15 years with a death bed owner and therefore change scheme/ flip low quality coaches every 2 years. Now for the first time since Wade Phillips we have two really brilliant , out of the box scheme coaches who have proven approaches . No one should complain.

 

We do have guys who are over-qualified/paid for what they are now being asked to do. Is what it is. that will shake out over time as contracts expire . Eg. I see IK replacing Mario next year, no question. IK is the kind of spare part who does exactly what Rex needs: quick hard pressure... Hughes is another, Kyle is another. Dareus is what Rex had in NY with Kris Jenkins, albeit at a very high price. Its all good. We are looking too far under the covers. Rex will take a quick pressure sacks, but most downs he WANTS the ball to be thrown, just very quickly, very inaccurately and once in awhile to US. See Bortles' wounded duck in the London game; pressure induced crap throw that I could have caught.

Patience people. Party just getting started. go bills

Edited November 9, 2015 by 8and8-->NoMore

[ToGoGo]

Just another manifestation of Ralph's demise. You can switch coaches and therefore schemes (as coaches get to where they are coaching and calling their own schemes) but you cannot change the roster as quickly. When Pegs took over we finally had solid long term ownership had a chance to go for it with coaching. We went with Rex and Roman and when we did, the roster inherited two of the most unusual and complex schemes in football on both sides. Rex believes he can be more successful forcing the ball out extemely quickly with pressure and all but abandons the coverage sack, b/c coverage is in man. So subtract a couple coverage sacks per game. Gone, not coming back.

 

This D makes the corners look great, b/c they are looking to jump the hot routes and attack everything else because the ball is out so fast and is not accurate half the time. Just his philosophy; run stuff on 1st down, then pressure on 2nd and 3rd; the front seven don't get sacks b/c the ball is gone before they could conceivably get there. Rex made Revis , but sacrificed coverage sacks doing it. His defenses likes but doesn't absolutely require sack artists; what he wants it push and quick pressure and will bring 5, 6 or 7 guys to get it -- doesn;t care what their names are.

 

Rex is the defensive version of Gailey; he uses scheme to get results; the players don't necessarily need to be pro bowl quality; i swear Gailey could score on an NFL defense with 11 college players. He was scoring 30+ a game with Donald Jones and David Nelson for crying out loud. Its all in the scheme and play calling.

 

Rex's big plays are pass breakups on hurried throws and the occasional bum rush/pass rush induced splash plays (Hughes' sacks yesterday and Browns pick six in Miami).

 

Now we have pro bowl 1st teamers in the front seven... well those guys were brought in under a 4 man rush/coverage sack concept that no longer applies. That's what happens when you are kings of suck for 15 years with a death bed owner and therefore change scheme/ flip low quality coaches every 2 years. Now for the first time since Wade Phillips we have two really brilliant , out of the box scheme coaches who have proven approaches . No one should complain.

 

We do have guys who are over-qualified/paid for what they are now being asked to do. Is what it is. that will shake out over time as contracts expire . Eg. I see IK replacing Mario next year, no question. IK is the kind of spare part who does exactly what Rex needs: quick hard pressure... Hughes is another, Kyle is another. Dareus is what Rex had in NY with Kris Jenkins, albeit at a very high price. Its all good. We are looking too far under the covers. Rex will take a quick pressure sacks, but most downs he WANTS the ball to be thrown, just very quickly, very inaccurately and once in awhile to US. See Bortles' wounded duck in the London game; pressure induced crap throw that I could have caught.

Patience people. Party just getting started. go bills

 

Most insightful post yet.

 

But a couple questions for you:

 

1. Why are we still being ripped apart by short quick passes like in the Pats and Giants game?

 

2. Why don't our Corners bump more at the line of scrimmage to disrupt routes if the goal is to force quick passes. Aren't quick, timing routes the Achilles heel of a defensive scheme like that?

 

3. If we let go of Mario next year, what kind of players do you think Rex and Roman will spend that extra money on?

[apuszczalowski]

I don't know if I fully blame Rex as much as Pegula and the front office that hired him. They hired him because of he was the big name with experience that would bring the most attention and credibility. Problem is he has his own defensive style that he is K nown for and runs. I would rather he run a defence he knows well then a style he doesn't. Really the Pegulas and the front office should have went looking for a guy who could come in and work with what was in place on defence but fix the offence instead of the flashy defensive guy who's never been Kn own for having a good offence. Now it's also possible that they thought Rex coming in would make an already good defence even better which is easier then trying to turn around the offence to a point where it can carry a team and not require the defence to win for them.

 

Hopefully the first half of the season was just growing pains for the defence and the players will keep getting better under Rex's defence