Doug Whaley

[Dan]

I see the converse. when things go well, even for brief periods, it's due to whaley. when they go bad, he's absolved because it really wasn't his decision or everybody misses on picks. and should someone be praised for making things happen the way there supposed to? I don't think so.

 

lastly winning more than losing seems a pretty low bar for a gm especially of a team with an owner willing to spend much more freely than his predecessor.

True. People over over zealous on both sides of the spectrum, in support or criticism.

 

And since when does spending money equate to wins? If that's all it took the Redskins would have how many Super Bowl titles now?

 

Given that we haven't made the playoffs this century, given that last year was our first winning record in a decade, given that this franchise has been a losing franchise in all phases for longer than any of us care to admit... Yeah, I have the bar pretty low (or realistic). I want to see this team win more games than it loses, every year. Then I'll expect the playoffs, every year. Then I'll expect to contend for the Super Bowl, every year. But to think we can go from the mess we have been stuck in for as long as we've been here to a playoff/super bowl team in one or even two years, is diluted. So, yeah, for now... i just want to see this team win more than it loses. Hell, this season we haven't even been able to win 2 consecutive games!

[DrDawkinstein]

Weird to me that anyone would be real upset about the EJ pick, considering we traded down, knew EJ was at best a project, and got Kiko/McCoy out of the situation as well.

 

On top of that, why bother harping on about EJ when Whaley is also the guy who signed Tyrod? Does he get no credit for that at all?

 

If EJ was a Whaley/Nix pick, and we are laying the responsibility on Whaley (which I am fine doing), then Tyrod was a Whaley/Rex signing and Whaley should get the bulk of the credit there too.

[birdog1960]

True. People over over zealous on both sides of the spectrum, in support or criticism.

 

And since when does spending money equate to wins? If that's all it took the Redskins would have how many Super Bowl titles now?

 

Given that we haven't made the playoffs this century, given that last year was our first winning record in a decade, given that this franchise has been a losing franchise in all phases for longer than any of us care to admit... Yeah, I have the bar pretty low (or realistic). I want to see this team win more games than it loses, every year. Then I'll expect the playoffs, every year. Then I'll expect to contend for the Super Bowl, every year. But to think we can go from the mess we have been stuck in for as long as we've been here to a playoff/super bowl team in one or even two years, is diluted. So, yeah, for now... i just want to see this team win more than it loses. Hell, this season we haven't even been able to win 2 consecutive games!

spending doesn't equate to winning. but again i'd say the converse is pretty sound. not spending, especially on coaches, gm's and qb's makes it much less likely to win. the 2 consecutive wins fact is just fuel for the fire under whaley.

[DC Greg]

Weird to me that anyone would be real upset about the EJ pick, considering we traded down, knew EJ was at best a project, and got Kiko/McCoy out of the situation as well.

 

On top of that, why bother harping on about EJ when Whaley is also the guy who signed Tyrod? Does he get no credit for that at all?

 

If EJ was a Whaley/Nix pick, and we are laying the responsibility on Whaley (which I am fine doing), then Tyrod was a Whaley/Rex signing and Whaley should get the bulk of the credit there too.

 

Yeah... turning that pick into Shady McCoy makes it worth it. EJ is a bust, but he was a shot in the dark. Fans would have lost it if he hadn't taken a QB. Unfortunate that it was the wrong year to take one. Wish we had picked up Glennon instead thought. Much better backup material.

 

Also, Tyrod... yes! Doug Whaley is a smart, smart man when it comes to finding talent that's languishing on other teams. That is not easy to do. And frankly Buddy did too.

[Chandler#81]

I disagree. The phone thing was irrelevant. You could smooth that over pretty easily. Just say you're fishing for info and bluffing about your hand. Plus, he was under contract and is a professional. He's have been fine.

 

Thus, with Fitz already on the team, why reach for a mediocre prospect if you know you'll then be handcuffed to that prospect and thus precluded from exploring other (better) options?

That's your opinion, but many -if not most- disagree. The FO had begun discussions with Fitz to re-work his deal to a more manageable contract. Almost immediately after the story broke of Buddy dissing Fitz in that radio broacast hoax, Fitz refused to re-negotiate and was cut. All in the same week. The Bills HAD to select a QB #1 and grabbed the best guy in a crappy draft, while landing an additional early 2nd rounder.

The phone thing was relevant.

[Rob's House]

Weird to me that anyone would be real upset about the EJ pick, considering we traded down, knew EJ was at best a project, and got Kiko/McCoy out of the situation as well.

 

On top of that, why bother harping on about EJ when Whaley is also the guy who signed Tyrod? Does he get no credit for that at all?

 

If EJ was a Whaley/Nix pick, and we are laying the responsibility on Whaley (which I am fine doing), then Tyrod was a Whaley/Rex signing and Whaley should get the bulk of the credit there too.

It's been said 1000 times already (hell, it's even been said in this thread) - It's not simply missing on the pick that's the issue. It's how much faith and reliance was placed on that pick. Don't tell me this is the first time you've heard this.

That's your opinion, but many -if not most- disagree. The FO had begun discussions with Fitz to re-work his deal to a more manageable contract. Almost immediately after the story broke of Buddy dissing Fitz in that radio broacast hoax, Fitz refused to re-negotiate and was cut. All in the same week. The Bills HAD to select a QB #1 and grabbed the best guy in a crappy draft, while landing an additional early 2nd rounder.

The phone thing was relevant.

I see nothing in this post that supports the assertion that Fitz had to be cut, that we HAD to take a QB in the first, or that EJ was the best of the bunch.

 

I would argue that keeping Fitz, even at his high salary, would have been the smarter move, we could have just as easily taken a QB in the middle rounds (there wasn't much clear separation in talent among the top 5 or 6 guys, and that EJ wasn't the best of that bunch (Landry and Glennon have both looked better).

 

Making a desperation reach for, and simultaneously making a long term commitment to, a mediocre prospect because ??? doesn't sound like the work of geniuses to me.

[Dorkington]

It's been said 1000 times already (hell, it's even been said in this thread) - It's not simply missing on the pick that's the issue. It's how much faith and reliance was placed on that pick. Don't tell me this is the first time you've heard this.

 

I see nothing in this post that supports the assertion that Fitz had to be cut, that we HAD to take a QB in the first, or that EJ was the best of the bunch.

 

I would argue that keeping Fitz, even at his high salary, would have been the smarter move, we could have just as easily taken a QB in the middle rounds (there wasn't much clear separation in talent among the top 5 or 6 guys, and that EJ wasn't the best of that bunch (Landry and Glennon have both looked better).

 

Making a desperation reach for, and simultaneously making a long term commitment to, a mediocre prospect because ??? doesn't sound like the work of geniuses to me.

Should Whaley be fired, or kept after this season, so far?

[DrDawkinstein]

It's been said 1000 times already (hell, it's even been said in this thread) - It's not simply missing on the pick that's the issue. It's how much faith and reliance was placed on that pick. Don't tell me this is the first time you've heard this.

 

 

Well, when you draft a guy knowing (and advertising) that he is a 3-year project, maybe you want to actually see what you can do with him over those 3 years.

 

It's not like the Bills neglected to bring in a Veteran starter that was supposed to hold down the fort. EJ being thrust into the starting line up was never the plan, it's just the way the variables played out.

 

He tried getting Orton in back in June of last year. And he brought in 2 QBs to compete for the starting spot this year. So it's not like he's being that stubborn on EJ.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

The only people doubting Whaley are people unfamiliar with the other teams and their draft records. New England has busted on a zillion of their 2nd round picks. Baltimore misses. Both of those teams still are considered good at drafting.

And we've had some fabulous GMs who've picked the likes of Losman, McDavid, Mike Williams, Flowers, that loser defensive end/linebacker from Penn State, and Walt Patulski with number one picks.

[thebandit27]

I see nothing in this post that supports the assertion that Fitz had to be cut, that we HAD to take a QB in the first, or that EJ was the best of the bunch.

 

I would argue that keeping Fitz, even at his high salary, would have been the smarter move, we could have just as easily taken a QB in the middle rounds (there wasn't much clear separation in talent among the top 5 or 6 guys, and that EJ wasn't the best of that bunch (Landry and Glennon have both looked better).

 

Making a desperation reach for, and simultaneously making a long term commitment to, a mediocre prospect because ??? doesn't sound like the work of geniuses to me.

 

I think the point regarding Fitz is that the team wasn't going to reach the next level with him at QB, so the team decided to move on instead of paying him $10M/year. Did that have to be done? Probably not, but it made sense at the time.

 

As far as EJ, I think it'd be accurate to call him the "most physically talented" QB of the 2013 draft, which is clearly what Buffalo was buying when they took him.

[Kelly the Dog]

I remember years ago when certain posters announced that you couldn't judge a draft pick until they'd been in the league 2-3 years. The same holds true for GMs and probably HC's.

 

Where this mindset comes from that if something good happens, as in a win over the Dolphins, it suddenly means the GM and/or HC are geniuses is beyond me. I guess it's the instant gratification crowd who don't have the patience to evaluate an executive or player over the long haul, which is more than 1 game.

 

As for the term "hater" is it possible to have a contrary opinion where debate is permitted rather than one side resorting to name-calling?

 

When a person takes the negative POV more than 90% of his or her contributions and posts, you're a hater.

[Agent 91]

I guess no one had a gun to their heads but I know for a fact TBD demanded a QB be selected. Not one person here said skip 2013 because the QB class were all duds.

 

It was "Should we take Nassib or Barkley at 9 since Geno will be gone at 1?"

Not sure i was on this blog yet. But that was the reality in person as well. People were talking that up. Im not going to lie. I wanted to just stick with fitz one one year and look at bridgewater. But for whatever reason buddy decided he HAD to take a qb that year. Leave Buffalo with their franchise guy. Had i had to have chosen that year. It was Gino, pre-texting on his visits, or Tyler Wilson. I thought Glennon sucked Tyler Bray was weak. I didnt like it. I feel like if you HAD TO HAVE a QB that year trading down and taking EJ was the right call. It was by default.

Watkins had a great game. that's really the first one I remember that justifies his draft status. will he continue? we'll have to wait and see. if so, it was a good move. if not, it wasn't. it was especially problematic given that the qb position was at the very least unsettled, at worst, a disaster. tyrod was brought in by ryan. without him were probably 2-6 right now. I also suspect ryan played a hand in incognito and harvin as well but who knows. don't get me wrong. i'm not a huge ryan fan either but frankly i'd rather he be making the personnel decisions and whaley making them occur than vice versa.

 

again, the bottom line is W's. I say if they don't get 10 this year and make the playoffs then whaley was lacking as a gm. 9 and a crawl into the playoffs is borderline.

Sure Ryan had a hand in it. But Whaley had to sit down with them and hash out the particulars. I feel like the talent was brought in by Rex. But i just cant get behind saying Whaley isnt doing well. And Rex shouldnt have full autonomy. That defense needs help... bad. And rex can either make Thurman a fall guy. Or own up and say flat out.... he has n3ver had this much talent on defense and he needs to retink his whole defensive scheme. My point is whaley delivered the parts. He has no control over the outcome passed that

Edited November 9, 2015 by Agent 91

[DrDawkinstein]

Not sure i was on this blog yet. But that was the reality in person as well. People were talking that up. Im not going to lie. I wanted to just stick with fitz one one year and look at bridgewater. But for whatever reason buddy decided he HAD to take a qb that year. Leave Buffalo with their franchise guy. Had i had to have chosen that year. It was Gino, pre-texting on his visits, or Tyler Wilson. I thought Glennon sucked Tyler Bray was weak. I didnt like it. I feel like if you HAD TO HAVE a QB that year trading down and taking EJ was the right call. It was by default.

 

 

This. I was a Geno guy and pushed for him on here, but always with the caveat of "Assuming he interviews well". We know how that worked out.

 

Outside of that, all I really wanted was for the Bills to get "first pick" of all the QBs for once in a draft. Even though it turned out to be the worst draft for QBs in the last 40 years.

 

It's not like the Bills traded UP to get EJ, and then pushed him as the day-1 starting franchise-saving QB.

 

We risked losing him by trading down and added value to a pick we knew was going to be a crap shoot but that we also had to make.

 

 

All that being said... We now have TYROD, who Whaley signed as well. So let's keep that in consideration when talking about how this regime has handled the QB position.

Edited November 9, 2015 by DrDareustein

[Kelly the Dog]

That's your opinion, but many -if not most- disagree. The FO had begun discussions with Fitz to re-work his deal to a more manageable contract. Almost immediately after the story broke of Buddy dissing Fitz in that radio broacast hoax, Fitz refused to re-negotiate and was cut. All in the same week. The Bills HAD to select a QB #1 and grabbed the best guy in a crappy draft, while landing an additional early 2nd rounder.

The phone thing was relevant.

Not really true. The part that Fitz objected to was that the Bills told him he would have to take a huge pay cut (which he was willing to do) and basically said he would come to camp as a backup which he wasn't willing to do. As Rob said, they could have lied to him and said that was all bull **** but it wasn't. If they said we are all but certain to draft a QB #1 but you and whomever that is will have an equal shot and whomever the best man is will start he probably would have stayed, or at least there would have been a decent chance. The thing is, he would have beaten out EJ to start two years ago, he wouldn't have been good with Marrone and Hackett at the helm. We wouldn't have seen much of EJ in the first two years. Fitz probably would have been released at some point in the last three years. And we still wouldn't know about EJ.

[GunnerBill]

I honestly don't even know why he is under pressure. As far as I am concerned Buddy Nix started to professionalise the way this team approached scouting, talent evaluation and the draft and drag it kicking and at times screaming into the 21st century (which is probably because Buddy was one of the most respected and long tenured scouts in the NFL). Doug Whaley since taking over has stuck to a lot of those principles and been aggressive in making moves to get this team better.

 

Ignore the 2010 draft for a second - Buddy was having to go off work done by others at that point, but look at the way this team has drafted from 2011 and don't try and tell me you can't see the improvement. The criticism of Buddy, and it is a fair one, is he never resolved the QB position and didn't place enough importance on it. I am not sure what the knock on Whaley is? His first full year as GM we had our first winning record in TEN years and his second year as GM he might, just might have found us something approaching an answer at the Quarterback position. And that is without talking about the 3 very good young players he has found who are immediate contributors from a draft with no first rounder.

 

I just do not get it I am sorry - and all I hear in response is "yea but EJJJJJJJ" and "why trade up for Sammy we could have had OBJ?" I can normally appreciate the other side of the argument from posters on this board and I have a lot of respect for some of he guys seen around here as part of the 'negative' crowd but I just cannot see the other side's point at all on Whaley. If we ditch Doug Whaley this January to prop up Rex Ryan I will lose a lot of faith in the Pegulas.

[Rob's House]

 

I think the point regarding Fitz is that the team wasn't going to reach the next level with him at QB, so the team decided to move on instead of paying him $10M/year. Did that have to be done? Probably not, but it made sense at the time.

 

As far as EJ, I think it'd be accurate to call him the "most physically talented" QB of the 2013 draft, which is clearly what Buffalo was buying when they took him.

Fitz aside, with Kolb and TJax there shouldn't have been the sense of urgency that required that kind of reach.

 

And I think looking for who has the most physical talent is an extremely poor way of scouting QBs. Most of the all time greats never get a second glance using that criteria.

[GunnerBill]

 

This. I was a Geno guy and pushed for him on here, but always with the caveat of "Assuming he interviews well". We know how that worked out.

 

 

I was an anyone but Geno guy. I can't recall another Quarterback who has screamed bust to me quite like Geno Smith.

[Rob's House]

 

Well, when you draft a guy knowing (and advertising) that he is a 3-year project, maybe you want to actually see what you can do with him over those 3 years.

 

It's not like the Bills neglected to bring in a Veteran starter that was supposed to hold down the fort. EJ being thrust into the starting line up was never the plan, it's just the way the variables played out.

 

He tried getting Orton in back in June of last year. And he brought in 2 QBs to compete for the starting spot this year. So it's not like he's being that stubborn on EJ.

Drafting a 3 year project in the first, and subsequently going all in on him to the exclusion of better talent, is a pretty horrible strategy IMO.

 

Also, if the need is so urgent that it has to be addressed immediately despite a dearth of talent, how does a 3 year project address that? The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

[BarleyNY]

Whaley's legacy in Buffalo will hinge on him finding a franchise QB to lead the Bills. It's not necessarily fair, but it's just the way it is. A team can only be so good without one and having one can really cover some major warts.

Edited November 9, 2015 by BarleyNY

[Kelly the Dog]

Drafting a 3 year project in the first, and subsequently going all in on him to the exclusion of better talent, is a pretty horrible strategy IMO.

Also, if the need is so urgent that it has to be addressed immediately despite a dearth of talent, how does a 3 year project address that? The two concepts are mutually exclusive.

I don't think Whaley was nearly as all in as you think he was. He was ultimately wrong, of course, because EJ has not progressed enough. And he made more than one mistake (in concert with Marrone). But what he actually did and always said was we need to give this guy time. He signed a veteran to be the starter in Kolb. Marrone had the hard on for Tuel and Whaley acquiesced to his head coach.

 

He traded for Thad. In the second year Thad actually played pretty good. BOTH Marrone and Whaley thought there was no reason to believe Thad would not be a decent backup. Marrone kept his hard on for Tuel. Whaley and Marrone both equally decided that we are going to give EJ a chance in year two by not having him look over his shoulder by bringing in another (crappy) veteran (there was no veteran backups really worth it who would come to Buffalo at that time). That was a mistake in hindsight by both Whaley and Marrone's (Whaley's third mistake, after Kolb who was an injury waiting to happen and believing Thad could be the adequate backup and allowing the Tuel hard on to continue). Thad and Tuel both regressed badly starting right in OTAs and EJ looked horrible too. So Whaley went out and got the best veteran available in Orton who wasn't going to come to the Bills until after all four preseason games were played.

 

Then Whaley tried to sign McCown who turned us down for a better op, and then traded for Cassell, and then signed Tyrod. He was never saying or even implying that he knows EJ is a franchise player, only that we didn't know what we had in him and he needed to play. But there also wasn't a lot of options. Again, I think he made three or more tactical errors in the handling of the QB position although now he seems to have gotten a break with TT.