Tenhigh Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 You don't know enough to make any meaninful contribution to this thread.I am still waiting for yours. But nice deflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 "If you start listening to the fans ..." Haha - and I do agree with this. I just think the whole thing was botched before that 2013 draft so badly... they made a bad call because of the position they had backed themselves into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 "If you start listening to the fans ..."So why start now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It was either your four points, or the fact that all of this and a lot more was just hashed out in a 12 page thread on the same topic. Not sure which. Nah, hashing stuff out in one thread never shut us up before in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I don't think not picking a QB was an option at all - the fan base was demanding a Quarterback and the phone thing had put them in a difficult position with Fitz. I thought at the time that Fitz was the perfect holding piece but maybe he didn't see it that way and you don't want to start a new era with a new HC and a disgruntled QB. Could they have waited and taken a guy in the 2nd round? Possibly but if they really thought it was a bad class and EJ was the one guy they liked.... then I can see why they didn't wait. So in essence, whilst in theory you are correct, the practice I think is very different. Basically what I see, too. I mean, we picked up a vet who had upside as well, in Kolb. He obviously didn't work out. The next season we made an offer early to KO, but he sat on it until last second. So it's not like we were thinking the whole time that EJ was the only option. You pick a guy you like, you try to develop him and have a vet presence, and if he doesn't work out, you get another guy in a couple years. This time we got a guy who is a little bit of both, in Tyrod, and while his career/season is young, it's looking promising. I'd like to see the Bills take a QB in the mid-late rounds this next season (EJ's last on contract, right?), to push EJ in camp some more, and if that doesn't work out, the following season you take the best QB you can. The Bills missed on EJ, but the pick was understandable, and even with the Jax meltdown, I still think he is a decent backup QB. Outside of EJ, I can't think of much we've messed up on as far as talent is concerned. Now if you want to blame the coaching hires on Whaley, then I might be more in agreement with some of the others. Rex, while a great guy, has not been great for our defense. Roman is an improvement over Hackett, but we still aren't consistent enough (possibly due to injuries, we'll see). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Haha - and I do agree with this. I just think the whole thing was botched before that 2013 draft so badly... they made a bad call because of the position they had backed themselves into. Except for the QBs he drafted and signed, Whaley completely ignored the QB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) I don't think not picking a QB was an option at all - the fan base was demanding a Quarterback and the phone thing had put them in a difficult position with Fitz. I thought at the time that Fitz was the perfect holding piece but maybe he didn't see it that way and you don't want to start a new era with a new HC and a disgruntled QB. Could they have waited and taken a guy in the 2nd round? Possibly but if they really thought it was a bad class and EJ was the one guy they liked.... then I can see why they didn't wait. So in essence, whilst in theory you are correct, the practice I think is very different. I guess it really turns on the Fitz thing. I just think if these guys are good at running an organization, and especially with Nix about to step down, they could have ironed that out. Plus, everything I know about Fitz suggests he's the consummate professional, and he was well paid AND starting QB for an NFL franchise. I think he's have been fine. But I could be wrong. Edited November 9, 2015 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I guess no one had a gun to their heads but I know for a fact TBD demanded a QB be selected. Not one person here said skip 2013 because the QB class were all duds. It was "Should we take Nassib or Barkley at 9 since Geno will be gone at 1?" This. A qb had to be drafted there. I wanted Geno/Tyler Wilson/Zac Dysert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Watkins had a great game. that's really the first one I remember that justifies his draft status. will he continue? we'll have to wait and see. if so, it was a good move. if not, it wasn't. it was especially problematic given that the qb position was at the very least unsettled, at worst, a disaster. tyrod was brought in by ryan. without him were probably 2-6 right now. I also suspect ryan played a hand in incognito and harvin as well but who knows. don't get me wrong. i'm not a huge ryan fan either but frankly i'd rather he be making the personnel decisions and whaley making them occur than vice versa. again, the bottom line is W's. I say if they don't get 10 this year and make the playoffs then whaley was lacking as a gm. 9 and a crawl into the playoffs is borderline. Rex didn't bring any players in. Rex may have said... "Hey, I like this guy. Let's bring him in." But, it's Whaley's job to actually get them in, unless I'm mistaken. And isn't that another positive for Whaley? He listens to his HC and tried to get the type of talent he needs/wants for his schemes. Even if we give Rex all the credit for those signings, he still missed on one of them. So he's not perfect on every choice either. You're right, I'm placing too much value on the role wins and losses play in determining a championship team.I think the point was that you're devaluing the fact that those teams have fewer wins, directly because of the Bills' wins. So it seems you're placing value on their losses, without giving the Bills wins over them any value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Haha - and I do agree with this. I just think the whole thing was botched before that 2013 draft so badly... they made a bad call because of the position they had backed themselves into. Fitz was never going to be the answer. He ended 2012 with a 60% completion rate and an 83 passer rating. Always doing ALMOST enough, but never quite getting there. Remember his long ball? Me neither. Unfortunately, the best option that spring was EJ, and here we sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It doesn't get any more simple than this: if this team isn't missing 4 starters on offense, they're pretty darned good. Case closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Whaley still has his warts, and winning sure does hide them well. The more the team wins the less fans will look at the mistakes, and there have been many mistakes. Should the Bills somehow make the playoffs this season I doubt anyone will listen to anyone saying anything negative about the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Because Fitzpatrick was not the option at that point in time, Buddy got caught in a phone trap, and I don't remember the free agent QB market to be great... so you take a QB and hope for the best. I really don't think that "Catfished" phone call had that much impact. "Drafting a QB in a weak class and hoping for the best" would be a sucky plan, if that was their plan. I think they thought Kolb was a better QB than Fitzpatrick for the WCO system Marrone wanted to run, so they only wanted Fitzpatrick as a "camp arm" if he was willing to take a TJax type contract. Fitz was willing to reno, but he wanted a Kolb-type contract which indeed, is what he signed for in Tenn. OTOH, it was clear they had to draft a QB. The real problem is they waited about 2 years too long to burn a reasonable pick on a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Rex didn't bring any players in. Rex may have said... "Hey, I like this guy. Let's bring him in." But, it's Whaley's job to actually get them in, unless I'm mistaken. And isn't that another positive for Whaley? He listens to his HC and tried to get the type of talent he needs/wants for his schemes. Even if we give Rex all the credit for those signings, he still missed on one of them. So he's not perfect on every choice either. I think the point was that you're devaluing the fact that those teams have fewer wins, directly because of the Bills' wins. So it seems you're placing value on their losses, without giving the Bills wins over them any value. Given the lineage, Whaley has never been someone who uses UFA. The fact that Buffalo decided to sign/trade for some big money players like McCoy, Harvin, and Clay tells me Rex had some power upon taking over. And Whaley, in true political fashion, deferred to the HC to show he could work with a HC he didn't hire. But given how much he pushed for Manuel during the HC interviews, it seems plausible that he wasn't in the camp to trade for Cassel or sign Taylor. It's kinda like deducing the 2013 draft was more Whaley's because they traded down, something Buddy Nix refused to and didn't do from 2010-12. I doubt Nix suddenly changed his tune and draft strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Whaley still has his warts, and winning sure does hide them well. The more the team wins the less fans will look at the mistakes, and there have been many mistakes. Should the Bills somehow make the playoffs this season I doubt anyone will listen to anyone saying anything negative about the man. If the Bills make the playoffs I doubt there will be anyone saying bad things about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I really don't think that "Catfished" phone call had that much impact. "Drafting a QB in a weak class and hoping for the best" would be a sucky plan, if that was their plan. I think they thought Kolb was a better QB than Fitzpatrick for the WCO system Marrone wanted to run, so they only wanted Fitzpatrick as a "camp arm" if he was willing to take a TJax type contract. Fitz was willing to reno, but he wanted a Kolb-type contract which indeed, is what he signed for in Tenn. OTOH, it was clear they had to draft a QB. The real problem is they waited about 2 years too long to burn a reasonable pick on a QB. Very much agree with the bolded. Not sure if Whaley is to blame for that, but if he is, then there you go. Whaley missed on not drafting earlier, AND taking EJ. The rest he's been pretty damned good on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Given the lineage, Whaley has never been someone who uses UFA. The fact that Buffalo decided to sign/trade for some big money players like McCoy, Harvin, and Clay tells me Rex had some power upon taking over. And Whaley, in true political fashion, deferred to the HC to show he could work with a HC he didn't hire. But given how much he pushed for Manuel during the HC interviews, it seems plausible that he wasn't in the camp to trade for Cassel or sign Taylor. It's kinda like deducing the 2013 draft was more Whaley's because they traded down, something Buddy Nix refused to and didn't do from 2010-12. I doubt Nix suddenly changed his tune and draft strategy. It's not like Colbert in Pittsburgh didn't go out and sign UFA's...they actually did it with some of their key players in the 2000's (think Pro Bowl center Jeff Hartings, Duce Staley, James Farrior, Jared DeVries, Kimo Von Oelhoffen, etc.) Also, it's the GM's job to get the HC the pieces he wants. If Rex came in and said he wanted a stud RB and a top-tier TE, then it's Whaley's job to get them. Without a 1st round pick, UFA is the only way to do that. Very much agree with the bolded. Not sure if Whaley is to blame for that, but if he is, then there you go. Whaley missed on not drafting earlier, AND taking EJ. The rest he's been pretty damned good on. I don't think we'll ever be 100% sure when Whaley officially had the reigns, but I refuse to put the blame on him for anything prior to January of 2013 (when Russ took over for Ralph). Too many of Buddy's fingerprints on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Regarding HC's having power... I'd think the GM's job would be to get the players that fit what the HC wants to do as a team. HC says something like "I need these ingredients" and the GM stocks the cupboards with the best he can find. Edit: Bandit beat me to it. :| Edited November 9, 2015 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Given the lineage, Whaley has never been someone who uses UFA. The fact that Buffalo decided to sign/trade for some big money players like McCoy, Harvin, and Clay tells me Rex had some power upon taking over. And Whaley, in true political fashion, deferred to the HC to show he could work with a HC he didn't hire. But given how much he pushed for Manuel during the HC interviews, it seems plausible that he wasn't in the camp to trade for Cassel or sign Taylor. It's kinda like deducing the 2013 draft was more Whaley's because they traded down, something Buddy Nix refused to and didn't do from 2010-12. I doubt Nix suddenly changed his tune and draft strategy. I would very much agree. This off season was out of character for the way Whaley has always said he wanted to build the team. And that was very likely a direct result of Rex and the new ownership. But I see it as a point of strength that he got behind what the HC wanted and worked to make it happen. That's what ..should.. happen when a FO is working together. The problem I have with posters is they tend to place all the bad decisions at Whaley's feet, and give others credit for the good. Was he involved in the decision to draft EJ, yes. But, he was also involved in the decision to sign Tyrod. Bottomline for me, is the team more talented now than we were? Are we building a team as opposed to making moves just to make moves? Are we winning more than we're losing? So far, I think it's a definite yes on the first 2 and we have 8 more weeks to see how question 3 turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I would very much agree. This off season was out of character for the way Whaley has always said he wanted to build the team. And that was very likely a direct result of Rex and the new ownership. But I see it as a point of strength that he got behind what the HC wanted and worked to make it happen. That's what ..should.. happen when a FO is working together. The problem I have with posters is they tend to place all the bad decisions at Whaley's feet, and give others credit for the good. Was he involved in the decision to draft EJ, yes. But, he was also involved in the decision to sign Tyrod. Bottomline for me, is the team more talented now than we were? Are we building a team as opposed to making moves just to make moves? Are we winning more than we're losing? So far, I think it's a definite yes on the first 2 and we have 8 more weeks to see how question 3 turns out. I see the converse. when things go well, even for brief periods, it's due to whaley. when they go bad, he's absolved because it really wasn't his decision or everybody misses on picks. and should someone be praised for making things happen the way there supposed to? I don't think so. lastly winning more than losing seems a pretty low bar for a gm especially of a team with an owner willing to spend much more freely than his predecessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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