GunnerBill Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Whaley's legacy in Buffalo will hinge on him finding a franchise QB to lead the Bills. It's not necessarily fair, but it's just the way it is. A team can only be so good without one and having one can really cover some major warts. Of course it will. But we had the convo last week - Ozzie Newsome one of the most respected GMs in the game whiffed on his first big QB pick, got by with some sticking plaster veteran solutions before hitting on Flacco. I think ditching Whaley at this stage after 2 and a half years at the helm for not finding the long sought after Jim Kelly replacement would be incredibly short sighted. Especially while Tyrod is showing promise.
BarleyNY Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Of course it will. But we had the convo last week - Ozzie Newsome one of the most respected GMs in the game whiffed on his first big QB pick, got by with some sticking plaster veteran solutions before hitting on Flacco. I think ditching Whaley at this stage after 2 and a half years at the helm for not finding the long sought after Jim Kelly replacement would be incredibly short sighted. Especially while Tyrod is showing promise. I'm not arguing that. Just stating where this is going. Whaley shouldn't be cast off. Give him his full chance and don't be surprised if he goes all out for a QB.
DC Greg Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 I honestly don't even know why he is under pressure. As far as I am concerned Buddy Nix started to professionalise the way this team approached scouting, talent evaluation and the draft and drag it kicking and at times screaming into the 21st century (which is probably because Buddy was one of the most respected and long tenured scouts in the NFL). Doug Whaley since taking over has stuck to a lot of those principles and been aggressive in making moves to get this team better. Ignore the 2010 draft for a second - Buddy was having to go off work done by others at that point, but look at the way this team has drafted from 2011 and don't try and tell me you can't see the improvement. The criticism of Buddy, and it is a fair one, is he never resolved the QB position and didn't place enough importance on it. I am not sure what the knock on Whaley is? His first full year as GM we had our first winning record in TEN years and his second year as GM he might, just might have found us something approaching an answer at the Quarterback position. And that is without talking about the 3 very good young players he has found who are immediate contributors from a draft with no first rounder. I just do not get it I am sorry - and all I hear in response is "yea but EJJJJJJJ" and "why trade up for Sammy we could have had OBJ?" I can normally appreciate the other side of the argument from posters on this board and I have a lot of respect for some of he guys seen around here as part of the 'negative' crowd but I just cannot see the other side's point at all on Whaley. If we ditch Doug Whaley this January to prop up Rex Ryan I will lose a lot of faith in the Pegulas. He's not under pressure. Typical response from reactionist fans who want to call for someone's head after a loss. Bunch of Robespierre's around here. Unless there's a significant rift between he and Rex, I don't think he's going anywhere. Pegs seems to like his crew. Why would he start axing guys after one year?
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 I don't think Whaley was nearly as all in as you think he was. He was ultimately wrong, of course, because EJ has not progressed enough. And he made more than one mistake (in concert with Marrone). But what he actually did and always said was we need to give this guy time. He signed a veteran to be the starter in Kolb. Marrone had the hard on for Tuel and Whaley acquiesced to his head coach. He traded for Thad. In the second year Thad actually played pretty good. BOTH Marrone and Whaley thought there was no reason to believe Thad would not be a decent backup. Marrone kept his hard on for Tuel. Whaley and Marrone both equally decided that we are going to give EJ a chance in year two by not having him look over his shoulder by bringing in another (crappy) veteran (there was no veteran backups really worth it who would come to Buffalo at that time). That was a mistake in hindsight by both Whaley and Marrone's (Whaley's third mistake, after Kolb who was an injury waiting to happen and believing Thad could be the adequate backup and allowing the Tuel hard on to continue). Thad and Tuel both regressed badly starting right in OTAs and EJ looked horrible too. So Whaley went out and got the best veteran available in Orton who wasn't going to come to the Bills until after all four preseason games were played. Then Whaley tried to sign McCown who turned us down for a better op, and then traded for Cassell, and then signed Tyrod. He was never saying or even implying that he knows EJ is a franchise player, only that we didn't know what we had in him and he needed to play. But there also wasn't a lot of options. Again, I think he made three or more tactical errors in the handling of the QB position although now he seems to have gotten a break with TT. I pretty much agree with this. I probably attribute more reliance on EJ to Whaley than you, but overall I think you're more or less right. To be clear, I'm not saying that he's been terrible as a GM. Just that I haven't liked the way he's handled the QB position. And moreover that it's a results oriented business and I'll consider him a great GM when he builds a great team, but for now the jury's still out on that.
John from Riverside Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 His QB is 4-2 as a starter Its not a complete body of work.....but.....
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 seems like some cloudiness surrounds the QB history making for some mis assignment of blame... The bills QB saga sort of went like this: Fitz had a great start to the 2011 season and so the front office awarding him a franchise QB deal. With big guaranteed money. Then he crumbled back to mediocrity... He was given one more season to reclaim his form, but struggled demonstrating he just couldn't make all the throws and wasn't the long term answer. Chan gets fired at the end of the season (who by the way was publicly a clear fitzs supporter) Marrone is hired and begins a complete rebuild. New coaches, new o, new d. They went back to fitz wanting to restructure his deal... Remember the infamous phone call... Nix "can't pay a back up that kind of money, the next move is his" Meanwhile Whaley Marrone and Nix are spending months on the road scrutinizing every QB... Nix openly professes the top priority of the draft is QB and in the call. Shortly after the phone call goes viral fitz is released, likely accelerating the process that was going to happen in any case based on nix comments made. The bills draft EJ, sighting he's the most fixable of the flawed class and they need a QB. Whaley was part of the assessment team, but for all we know Ralph or Russ could have made the decision. At this point one can fault Whaley for hoping the tiny bit of good EJ would eventually overtake the massive amount of bad EJ with new coaching. But he went and got Tyrod, Cassel, Kolb and tried a number of other guys too, so it's not like he's in denial about EJ capability.
Rico Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 It's not about making the EJ pick at all. It's about (IF TRUE) forcing EJ on this year's staff... after last year's staff didn't want him either. There are very few people left in the fanbase that want anything to do with EJ anymore, especially after London. The bye week was when all the Whaley bashing reached it's peak, primarily based on EJ's performance. Since EJ didn't play this week, the bashing quieted down... I guess until now lol.
thebandit27 Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 It's not about making the EJ pick at all. It's about (IF TRUE) forcing EJ on this year's staff... after last year's staff didn't want him either. There are very few people left in the fanbase that want anything to do with EJ anymore, especially after London. The bye week was when all the Whaley bashing reached it's peak, primarily based on EJ's performance. Since EJ didn't play this week, the bashing quieted down... I guess until now lol. Let's suppose it were true that he "forced" EJ on this year's staff. In a year when they have some key FAs to re-sign (Dareus, Gilmore, Glenn), they could ill afford to spend an additional $2.5M against the cap to cut the guy. From a cap management perspective alone it makes no sense to cut him.
Rico Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Let's suppose it were true that he "forced" EJ on this year's staff. In a year when they have some key FAs to re-sign (Dareus, Gilmore, Glenn), they could ill afford to spend an additional $2.5M against the cap to cut the guy. From a cap management perspective alone it makes no sense to cut him. Nevertheless, perception is reality, fueled by the local media. It appears that the only one in EJ's corner is DW, and that's why he is taking some heat over it. I do think it's true that the vast majority of the fanbase has seen enough of EJ, and I think it's highly unlikely that he will be on the team next year.
thebandit27 Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Nevertheless, perception is reality, fueled by the local media. It appears that the only one in EJ's corner is DW, and that's why he is taking some heat over it. I do think it's true that the vast majority of the fanbase has seen enough of EJ, and I think it's highly unlikely that he will be on the team next year. I don't disagree with any of that. Next year, when the team is on the hook for his $2M+ base salary with no dead cap implications, it makes sense to let him go.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Nevertheless, perception is reality, fueled by the local media. It appears that the only one in EJ's corner is DW, and that's why he is taking some heat over it. I do think it's true that the vast majority of the fanbase has seen enough of EJ, and I think it's highly unlikely that he will be on the team next year. Rex gushes about EJ and even still does.
John from Riverside Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Rex gushes about EJ and even still does. I think EJ has run his course......and will be out of buffalo in the offseason
Dopey Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 in essence, this is the argument. and it's possible the bills finish 12-4 and make it to the sb. but 8-8 or 9-7 look much more probable to me. even in that instance, the homers here will not concede that the season was unsuccessful and that whaley holds responsibility. the bills look to me to be well measured by their current record. if we can't agree that wins and losses are the gold standard for success or failure, then it's not worth arguing. apparently, we can't. we can all agree that we hope for the best so perhaps unicorns and rainbows should be the theme of every thread. now if we were just better fans... Hey! I'm an awesome fan!
Kelly the Dog Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 I think EJ has run his course......and will be out of buffalo in the offseason Probably. Maybe not. But what I was referencing was the poster saying that Whaley is the only one who sticks up for EJ and it's not true.
prissythecat Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 I think EJ has run his course......and will be out of buffalo in the offseason Nooo. BF4E would fall to pieces without EJ around.
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 I don't disagree with any of that. Next year, when the team is on the hook for his $2M+ base salary with no dead cap implications, it makes sense to let him go. I, for one, have no problem keeping him on the roster at $2m. I just don't want to go into the season relying on him. If he wins the back up role I'd consider it a bonus. I think part of the criticism (especially from me) is that it seems EJ's always been handed his opportunity rather than winning it. First year - Kolb gets hurt and rather than sign or trade for a journeyman, EJ gets the start. Second year - We go into camp with EJ as the unquestioned starter and no QB competition and no competition brought in because we have the devastating duo of Thad Lewis and Tuel. Only after shutting the bed through camp and the first 1/4 of the season is anyone else given a chance. Third year - Despite losing out to both TT and Matt Friggin Cassel he's still gifted the backup role. I don't personally have much faith in his ability to develop, but if he does well then great. I'd just like to see him win his spot after an earnest attempt to bring in competition rather than have it gifted to him on account of Whaley's undying devotion.
DrDawkinstein Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) I, for one, have no problem keeping him on the roster at $2m. I just don't want to go into the season relying on him. If he wins the back up role I'd consider it a bonus. I think part of the criticism (especially from me) is that it seems EJ's always been handed his opportunity rather than winning it. First year - Kolb gets hurt and rather than sign or trade for a journeyman, EJ gets the start. Second year - We go into camp with EJ as the unquestioned starter and no QB competition and no competition brought in because we have the devastating duo of Thad Lewis and Tuel. Only after shutting the bed through camp and the first 1/4 of the season is anyone else given a chance. Third year - Despite losing out to both TT and Matt Friggin Cassel he's still gifted the backup role. I don't personally have much faith in his ability to develop, but if he does well then great. I'd just like to see him win his spot after an earnest attempt to bring in competition rather than have it gifted to him on account of Whaley's undying devotion. BS. We brought in every available vet journeyman after Kolb went down. No one looked like they could even run an offense. We brought in Leinart and Thad the same day, right after Kolb went down, as we scrambled to find ANYONE else instead of EJ. We also brought in Matt Flynn. Last year, we were in talks with Orton since June, and he simply was waiting for the best offer/opportunity. We brought in Jordan Palmer and other vets and none looked worth keeping. This year, we bring in Cassel and Tyrod as direct competition and expected winners in the QB race. Nothing has been handed to EJ. Edited November 9, 2015 by DrDareustein
26CornerBlitz Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Damn! The Pegulas sure do recruit them early for their apprentice programs. @buffalobills Today is your final day to enter the NYS 529 Plan Jr. GM contest! Visit http://buffalobills.com/jrgm Edited November 9, 2015 by 26CornerBlitz
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 BS. We brought in every available vet journeyman after Kolb went down. No one looked like they could even run an offense. We brought in Leinart and Thad the same day, right after Kolb went down, as we scrambled to find ANYONE else instead of EJ. We also brought in Matt Flynn. Last year, we were in talks with Orton since June, and he simply was waiting for the best offer/opportunity. We brought in Jordan Palmer and other vets and none looked worth keeping. This year, we bring in Cassel and Tyrod as direct competition and expected winners in the QB race. Nothing has been handed to EJ. You think what you just posted amounts to EJ beating out the competition? No other team has ever gone into the season with only rookies at QB except for the 2013 Bills. EJ didn't beat out ****. He didn't even outperform Thad Lewis.
BarleyNY Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) I don't disagree with any of that. Next year, when the team is on the hook for his $2M+ base salary with no dead cap implications, it makes sense to let him go. http://overthecap.com/player/ej-manuel/2197/ Manuel's cap number next season is $2.8M. That's the last year of his contract and carries no cap implications beyond that. $1.2M of that is due to the proration of his signing bonus. Nothing can be done about that. The other $1.6M due to him is guaranteed salary. The Bills are on the hook for that with the exception of him being traded or cut and signed by another team. If he would be cut and picked up off of waivers or traded then his new team would owe him the $1.6M and the Bills would be off the hook for that. His contract has offset language so if he cleared waivers the amount of the salary his new team pays him would be deducted from the $1.6M the Bills owe him in cash payments and, consequently, cap space. Edited November 9, 2015 by BarleyNY
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