Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I don't know who this man crush is. But tell us why you're mad son. I've listed a million Whaley positives. What's the argument here ? He's only batting .700 ? I don't like disingenuous bull ****. That means people who claim that EJ was all Nix despite overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence that Whaley was all over that pick. That also means people who pretend that Whaley going "all in" on EJ isn't the bigger issue. I'm not down on Whaley across the board, but recognizing one's positives doesn't prevent the recognition of his negatives either. And if Whaley's the man why can't you talk him up using the truth instead of distorting the truth to fit your narrative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xsoldier54 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) in essence, this is the argument. and it's possible the bills finish 12-4 and make it to the sb. but 8-8 or 9-7 look much more probable to me. even in that instance, the homers here will not concede that the season was unsuccessful and that whaley holds responsibility. the bills look to me to be well measured by their current record. if we can't agree that wins and losses are the gold standard for success or failure, then it's not worth arguing. apparently, we can't. we can all agree that we hope for the best so perhaps unicorns and rainbows should be the theme of every thread. now if we were just better fans... I agree that this team will be hard pressed to get to 9-7. The D still looks suspect and they are still taking way too many penalties. While I don't blame Whaley for this and I like a lot of the moves he has made, I do blame Rex Ryan and his staff. I think this team is talented enough to make the playoffs, but they have been wildly inconsistent. Choosing EJ as the backup was a major mistake IMO. Not sure he could have done anything to beat Cinci, but he gave away that Jacksonville game. I'm looking for some consistent good play, particularly from the D and thus far, I still haven't seen it. That's on the coaches. Edited November 9, 2015 by xsoldier54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 in essence, this is the argument. and it's possible the bills finish 12-4 and make it to the sb. but 8-8 or 9-7 look much more probable to me. even in that instance, the homers here will not concede that the season was unsuccessful and that whaley holds responsibility. the bills look to me to be well measured by their current record. if we can't agree that wins and losses are the gold standard for success or failure, then it's not worth arguing. apparently, we can't. we can all agree that we hope for the best so perhaps unicorns and rainbows should be the theme of every thread. now if we were just better fans... What do you hold Whaley responsible for? Drafting a qb who is an adequate backup (Wait that was Nix). Trading oft injured Kiko Alonso for a premier RB. trading away a first for what people around here call a super star who hasnt even shown glimpses of his potential yet. Oh best part... in the following draft which there was no 1st rd pick, got us Ronald Freakin Darby. Our best cornerback right now. Getting Karlos Williams. Going and resigning dareus hughes getting corey graham RICHIE INCOGNITO and trying harvin. And also getting Tyrod Taylor. A player here who people are saying could be the future (way too early for me to say that). Yeah you are right... i hold Whaley plenty responsible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester43 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Where are all the haters today? Kind of quiet? Perhaps because: 1. Watkins again proved why he was the best WR in the 2014 draft class. 2. Darby looked great again. Whaley again drafted a potential DROY?? 3. McCoy looked great. 4. So did another guy, K. Williams, drafted in the 5th round. Oh wait, he traded Matt Cassle, fire him i still think he's a lightweight. nothing about that game changed my opinion of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) The only legitimate beef people can really claim is the EJ pick, imo. But, the Bills were forced into a QB pick, traded down, picked up an extra pick (who turned into Kiko/Shady, I think?), and still got the guy they wanted. It's not like that QB class was super great (unless I'm forgetting someone?). Other than that, I can't see how anyone can complain. I guess you can hindsight OBJ instead of Sammy, but OBJ wasn't rated nearly that high from what I remember, and we were looking at Ebron if we didn't trade. I'm not sure if it's realistic to expect a GM to hit a homerun on every draft pick, but I think Whaley has done a good job building talent for this team. Our problems lie with coaching and injuries at this point. Edited November 9, 2015 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 The only legitimate beef people can really claim is the EJ pick, imo. But, the Bills were forced into a QB pick, traded down, picked up an extra pick, and still got the guy they wanted. It's not like that QB class has been super great (unless I'm forgetting someone?). Other than that, I can't see how anyone can complain. I guess you can hindsight OBJ instead of Sammy, but OBJ wasn't rated nearly that high from what I remember, and we were looking at Ebron if we didn't trade. I'm not sure if it's realistic to expect a GM to high a homerun on every draft pick, but I think Whaley has done a good job building talent for this team. Our problems lie with coaching and injuries at this point. This is another thing that is often stated but never supported. How were the Bills forced to take a QB in the 1st (or even 242nd) that year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I don't like disingenuous bull ****. That means people who claim that EJ was all Nix despite overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence that Whaley was all over that pick. That also means people who pretend that Whaley going "all in" on EJ isn't the bigger issue. I'm not down on Whaley across the board, but recognizing one's positives doesn't prevent the recognition of his negatives either. And if Whaley's the man why can't you talk him up using the truth instead of distorting the truth to fit your narrative? the Ej thing is over. More hits than misses. I've got nothing to complain about regarding Doug Whaley. I didn't see Ronald Darby or Karlos Williams, Whaley and his crew did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 This is another thing that is often stated but never supported. How were the Bills forced to take a QB in the 1st (or even 242nd) that year? Because Fitzpatrick was not the option at that point in time, Buddy got caught in a phone trap, and I don't remember the free agent QB market to be great... so you take a QB and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I remember years ago when certain posters announced that you couldn't judge a draft pick until they'd been in the league 2-3 years. The same holds true for GMs and probably HC's. Where this mindset comes from that if something good happens, as in a win over the Dolphins, it suddenly means the GM and/or HC are geniuses is beyond me. I guess it's the instant gratification crowd who don't have the patience to evaluate an executive or player over the long haul, which is more than 1 game. As for the term "hater" is it possible to have a contrary opinion where debate is permitted rather than one side resorting to name-calling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It wasn't that long ago when our punter was our most talented player on the team. We were rushing guys like Kelsay, McCargo, and Maybin. Our starting WRs included Donald Jones and David Nelson. I mean seriously... how can anyone deny we've added a boat load of talent in the last 4-5 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I don't like disingenuous bull ****. That means people who claim that EJ was all Nix despite overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence that Whaley was all over that pick. That also means people who pretend that Whaley going "all in" on EJ isn't the bigger issue. I'm not down on Whaley across the board, but recognizing one's positives doesn't prevent the recognition of his negatives either. And if Whaley's the man why can't you talk him up using the truth instead of distorting the truth to fit your narrative? I dont know that there is any "overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence" (lol Matlock). But even for arguments sake there was, and EJ was as much or more Whaley's pick than Buddy's, what should he done differently? Drafted Geno? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) This is another thing that is often stated but never supported. How were the Bills forced to take a QB in the 1st (or even 242nd) that year?I guess no one had a gun to their heads but I know for a fact TBD demanded a QB be selected. Not one person here said skip 2013 because the QB class were all duds. It was "Should we take Nassib or Barkley at 9 since Geno will be gone at 1?" Edited November 9, 2015 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) What do you hold Whaley responsible for? Drafting a qb who is an adequate backup (Wait that was Nix). Trading oft injured Kiko Alonso for a premier RB. trading away a first for what people around here call a super star who hasnt even shown glimpses of his potential yet. Oh best part... in the following draft which there was no 1st rd pick, got us Ronald Freakin Darby. Our best cornerback right now. Getting Karlos Williams. Going and resigning dareus hughes getting corey graham RICHIE INCOGNITO and trying harvin. And also getting Tyrod Taylor. A player here who people are saying could be the future (way too early for me to say that). Yeah you are right... i hold Whaley plenty responsible Watkins had a great game. that's really the first one I remember that justifies his draft status. will he continue? we'll have to wait and see. if so, it was a good move. if not, it wasn't. it was especially problematic given that the qb position was at the very least unsettled, at worst, a disaster. tyrod was brought in by ryan. without him were probably 2-6 right now. I also suspect ryan played a hand in incognito and harvin as well but who knows. don't get me wrong. i'm not a huge ryan fan either but frankly i'd rather he be making the personnel decisions and whaley making them occur than vice versa. again, the bottom line is W's. I say if they don't get 10 this year and make the playoffs then whaley was lacking as a gm. 9 and a crawl into the playoffs is borderline. Edited November 9, 2015 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Because Fitzpatrick was not the option at that point in time, Buddy got caught in a phone trap, and I don't remember the free agent QB market to be great... so you take a QB and hope for the best. I disagree. The phone thing was irrelevant. You could smooth that over pretty easily. Just say you're fishing for info and bluffing about your hand. Plus, he was under contract and is a professional. He's have been fine. Thus, with Fitz already on the team, why reach for a mediocre prospect if you know you'll then be handcuffed to that prospect and thus precluded from exploring other (better) options? Edited November 9, 2015 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 It wasn't that long ago when our punter was our most talented player on the team. We were rushing guys like Kelsay, McCargo, and Maybin. Our starting WRs included Donald Jones and David Nelson. I mean seriously... how can anyone deny we've added a boat load of talent in the last 4-5 years? it's about the W's. not some subjective measure of talent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I dont know that there is any "overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence" (lol Matlock). But even for arguments sake there was, and EJ was as much or more Whaley's pick than Buddy's, what should he done differently? Drafted Geno? What? You don't know enough to make any meaninful contribution to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 it's about the W's. not some subjective measure of talent We already have as many wins as the team I was referencing, and last year we had our first winning record in a very long time. We're on the right path, its a slow path, and the coaching is suspect, but the talent is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I guess no one had a gun to their heads but I know for a fact TBD demanded a QB be selected. Not one person here said skip 2013 because the QB class were all duds. It was "Should we take Nassib or Barkley at 9 since Geno will be gone at 1?" "If you start listening to the fans ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Watkins had a great game. that's really the first one I remember that justifies his draft status. will he continue? we'll have to wait and see. if so, it was a good move. if not, it wasn't. it was especially problematic given that the qb position was at the very least unsettled, at worst, a disaster. tyrod was brought in by ryan. without him were probably 2-6 right now. I also suspect ryan played a hand in incognito and harvin as well but who knows. don't get me wrong. i'm not a huge ryan fan either but frankly i'd rather he be making the personnel decisions and whaley making them occur than vice versa. again, the bottom line is W's. I say if they don't get 10 this year and make the playoffs then whaley was lacking as a gm. 9 and a crawl into the playoffs is borderline. Thats too simplistic of an argument. There is a tremendous amount of talent on this team. Now if you want to talk at coaching/scheme, then I will listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I disagree. The phone thing was irrelevant. You could smooth that over pretty easily. Just say you're fishing for info and bluffing about your hand. Plus, he was under contract and is a professional. He's have been fine. Thus, with Fitz already on the team, why reach for a mediocre prospect if you know you'll then be handcuffed to that prospect and thus precluded from exploring other (better) options? I don't think not picking a QB was an option at all - the fan base was demanding a Quarterback and the phone thing had put them in a difficult position with Fitz. I thought at the time that Fitz was the perfect holding piece but maybe he didn't see it that way and you don't want to start a new era with a new HC and a disgruntled QB. Could they have waited and taken a guy in the 2nd round? Possibly but if they really thought it was a bad class and EJ was the one guy they liked.... then I can see why they didn't wait. So in essence, whilst in theory you are correct, the practice I think is very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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