Kelly the Dog Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 The referees have an impossible job. They are instructed by the league office to emphasize certain infractions. What frustrates me to no end is the arbitrariness of many of the calls (as you noted). If a minor infraction has no bearing on a play or is not near where the play goes to it shouldn't be called. The referees have lost a sense of perspective and situational awareness. Is there a kickoff and punt return play where the call for blocking in the back isn't called? Because of the increasing amount of penalty calls it is less enjoyable to watch a game. The refereeing in general has become a pet peeve of mine. I'm tired of it! Agreed. The only thing I would add is that they are almost always making the call as it happens in their little area and aren't privy to what is going on elsewhere. Not most of the time but a lot of times they make the call without any idea of whether it will have a big affect on the play. And you really don't want them picking up flags because it didn't. Once in a great while when a play is close or other info makes them pick it up and that's okay. It's actually good. But they never should pick up a flag after it was thrown just because they then realized it didn't have anything to do with the play. I understand you didn't suggest they should. All I'm saying is half the time when they reach for it they wouldn't know yet.
JohnC Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 I totally agree on Gilmore and one of my colleagues who is a fellow NFL fan (Browns sadly for him) thinks Gilmore is a top 5 corner and is still fuming that the Browns didn't pick him #3 overall in 2012. That is a tad higher than I have him but I think he is better than the TBD consensus. My theory as to why so many people don't appreciate Gilmore as much as I think they should is because they resent the Bills drafting a CB with a high first round pick. The year in which they drafted Gilmore he was picked in the vicinity of where he was ranked i.e. near the top. While many people disagree with me (and you) he has played up to his lofty draft status. What more can one ask for?
dave mcbride Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 My theory as to why so many people don't appreciate Gilmore as much as I think they should is because they resent the Bills drafting a CB with a high first round pick. The year in which they drafted Gilmore he was picked in the vicinity of where he was ranked i.e. near the top. While many people disagree with me (and you) he has played up to his lofty draft status. What more can one ask for? I really do think that most bills fans realize that gilmore is a good player and merited the pick. The critics are loud, but they are few.
JohnC Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Agreed. The only thing I would add is that they are almost always making the call as it happens in their little area and aren't privy to what is going on elsewhere. Not most of the time but a lot of times they make the call without any idea of whether it will have a big affect on the play. And you really don't want them picking up flags because it didn't. Once in a great while when a play is close or other info makes them pick it up and that's okay. It's actually good. But they never should pick up a flag after it was thrown just because they then realized it didn't have anything to do with the play. I understand you didn't suggest they should. All I'm saying is half the time when they reach for it they wouldn't know yet. In general I agree with what you stated. Where I have a different take is that instead of working as individuals and responsible for certain designated areas on the field. they should act more as a unit. This would call for more film work with the refereeing team and more communication prior to the game. How does one legislate judgment? If there is a marginal holding call by the RT and the running play goes to the left then the official should let it go. It has no bearing on the play but can have a disproportionate affect on the game if the back breaks a big play. It's a tough job where usually one side is going to be dissatisfied with the call. What I find upsetting is that the problem with the arbitrariness of the calls seems to be getting worse. I really do think that most bills fans realize that gilmore is a good player and merited the pick. The critics are loud, but they are few. Are you pointing the finger at NYC Bill? Maybe if he went to Alabama Gotham Bill would be more receptive towards him? In his defense he has slowly but steadily come around on him. LOL
BADOLBILZ Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 I really do think that most bills fans realize that gilmore is a good player and merited the pick. The critics are loud, but they are few. I was critical of Gilmore for being inconsistent.....and he deserved it. He's improved a lot in the past 30 games or so but that was no given. As much as people think fans are too critical here.......there is a bigger faction that want to give participation trophies to their celebrity crushes. Cases in point.......guys like CJ and SJ13.
dave mcbride Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 I was critical of Gilmore for being inconsistent.....and he deserved it. He's improved a lot in the past 30 games or so but that was no given. As much as people think fans are too critical here.......there is a bigger faction that want to give participation trophies to their celebrity crushes. Cases in point.......guys like CJ and SJ13. No doubt. I'm referring more to the dislike of cb picks here ( and not just bill) because their mistakes are so visible and hence easy to peg as problems. Gilmore is one of the top 15 cbs in the nfl, and while not the best I'll take it. I watch other teams with bad cbs get shredded on a regular basis. The bills don't despite having a truly feeble pass rush.
Reed83HOF Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 No doubt. I'm referring more to the dislike of cb picks here ( and not just bill) because their mistakes are so visible and hence easy to peg as problems. Gilmore is one of the top 15 cbs in the nfl, and while not the best I'll take it. I watch other teams with bad cbs get shredded on a regular basis. The bills don't despite having a truly feeble pass rush. Playing CB is one of the most difficult positions in the NFL now with all of the rule changes. You breathe on the WR its PI...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Darby may be better than Gilmore, already. I'll say it.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 My theory as to why so many people don't appreciate Gilmore as much as I think they should is because they resent the Bills drafting a CB with a high first round pick. The year in which they drafted Gilmore he was picked in the vicinity of where he was ranked i.e. near the top. While many people disagree with me (and you) he has played up to his lofty draft status. What more can one ask for? Ridiculous. Most fans appreciate him but he's always drawn some bad penalties for one thing. People who understand the game don't care where someone is drafted. They just want to see them consistently produce. Should people not appreciate Taylor because he was a low draft choice and thus cannot possibly play, or Karlos for that matter?
Bill from NYC Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 Are you pointing the finger at NYC Bill? Maybe if he went to Alabama Gotham Bill would be more receptive towards him? In his defense he has slowly but steadily come around on him. LOL Funny you should say that! The Tide has a kid at corner who is a freshman, Minkah Fitzpatrick. Remember that name. Saban doesn't even start this kid! He plays him at nickel and on special teams. If he stays healthy and focused, he is going right to the NFL and right to the Pro Bowl. Do watch #29 if you have a Bama game on.
Bill from NYC Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) I really do think that most bills fans realize that gilmore is a good player and merited the pick. The critics are loud, but they are few.Dave, teams that are set at quarterback, LT and DE SHOULD draft first round corners if they see a special talent. The Bills? Generally speaking, are really not one of these teams. I am one of the few on this board that was not so impressed with Levy. Reed, Smith, Kelly, Talley, Thurnman, etc. all seemed to age at the same time. In lieu of trying to find replacements, he drafted defensive backs. Some were good and some were not so good. This resulted in losing football games. When he came back in 2006 he held even more sway and was even worse. He came away from the 2006 draft with a 37.5 (as I recall) million dollar Donte Whitner, and a couple of early round dbs who sucked. That draft destroyed this team for many years and I absolutely knew it would. And yes, he DID also get Kyle Williams in round 5. Gilmore? He is "good." But, how many games has he taken over and won for the Bills. One? Two? He has 8 interceptions in 3 1/2 years. Again, this is "good." But imho, a cornerback is almost never someone to build a team around, especially a team with qb problems. Finally, a defensive back doesn't have to be a top 10 pick to produce. Darby is proof of this. So is Robey, who has 5 sacks and a pick in his short career, and Searcy (4 sacks, 4 forced fumbles and 5 picks in 4 1/2 seasons). Hey, Revis went at #14. So, was Gilmore worth the #10? I suppose his talent says yes. Did his selection result in wins? Sure, a couple. But he also lost us some games along the way. The bottom line is that we must hope that Tyrod is the real deal!!! It's mostly about the QB these days whether we like it or not. GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited November 10, 2015 by Bill from NYC
stony Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Dave, teams that are set at quarterback, LT and DE SHOULD draft first round corners if they see a special talent. The Bills? Generally speaking, are really not one of these teams. I am one of the few on this board that was not so impressed with Levy. Reed, Smith, Kelly, Talley, Thurnman, etc. all seemed to age at the same time. In lieu of trying to find replacements, he drafted defensive backs. Some were good and some were not so good. This resulted in losing football games. When he came back in 2006 he held even more sway and was even worse. He came away from the 2006 draft with a 37.5 (as I recall) million dollar Donte Whitner, and a couple of early round dbs who sucked. That draft destroyed this team for many years and I absolutely knew it would. And yes, he DID also get Kyle Williams in round 5. Gilmore? He is "good." But, how many games has he taken over and won for the Bills. One? Two? He has 8 interceptions in 3 1/2 years. Again, this is "good." But imho, a cornerback is almost never someone to build a team around, especially a team with qb problems. Finally, a defensive back doesn't have to be a top 10 pick to produce. Darby is proof of this. So is Robey, who has 5 sacks and a pick in his short career, and Searcy (4 sacks, 4 forced fumbles and 5 picks in 4 1/2 seasons). Hey, Revis went at #14. So, was Gilmore worth the #10? I suppose his talent says yes. Did his selection result in wins? Sure, a couple. But he also lost us some games along the way. The bottom line is that we must hope that Tyrod is the real deal!!! It's mostly about the QB these days whether we like it or not. GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've always looked at Levy the coach as a manager type. Not a knock by any means, because it took a special type of coach to manage the talent and egos of those teams. Levy the GM set the team back 5-10 years. Arggg.
Wayne Cubed Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Gilmore? He is "good." But, how many games has he taken over and won for the Bills. One? Two? He has 8 interceptions in 3 1/2 years. Again, this is "good." But imho, a cornerback is almost never someone to build a team around, especially a team with qb problems. Bill, you could say almost the exact same thing for a LT and a DE. Look at Joe Thomas, how many games has he "taken over and won" for the Browns? How about JJ Watt? Sure, there were a couple games last year were he willed the Texans to win by his play but still not nearly as much as a good QB would. Does that mean no team should pick those positions in the first round? Or in the top ten? So, a team with QB problems probably should only select QBs in the first round. And to your other point, you can find DE and LT not in the first round as well. Jason Peters and Greg Hardy are examples of that. Is it harder/rare? Of course it is, just like it is for finding a starting CB. Can you find "serviceable" CBs past round 1? Of course. Now, if you're saying a team doesn't need great CBs or a great LT or a great DE because they have a great QB, I would agree with that.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 My theory as to why so many people don't appreciate Gilmore as much as I think they should is because they resent the Bills drafting a CB with a high first round pick. The year in which they drafted Gilmore he was picked in the vicinity of where he was ranked i.e. near the top. While many people disagree with me (and you) he has played up to his lofty draft status. What more can one ask for? The sky and a Winning Mega Lottery ticket?
JohnC Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Funny you should say that! The Tide has a kid at corner who is a freshman, Minkah Fitzpatrick. Remember that name. Saban doesn't even start this kid! He plays him at nickel and on special teams. If he stays healthy and focused, he is going right to the NFL and right to the Pro Bowl. Do watch #29 if you have a Bama game on. Alabama is certainly loaded with pro talent. What has perplexed me about Saban is that he recruits exceptional talent at all the positions except the qb position. What's the problem? Most of the qbs who play for him seem to be smart manager type qbs. I'm surprised he hasn't had an elite qb prospect in the fold, or I'm not aware of it. Edited November 10, 2015 by JohnC
PromoTheRobot Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 After rewatching the game I realize it could have been much much closer. The third quarter was going badly for us and could have easily swung their way. Luckily they screwed themselves. Ridiculous. Most fans appreciate him but he's always drawn some bad penalties for one thing. People who understand the game don't care where someone is drafted. They just want to see them consistently produce. Should people not appreciate Taylor because he was a low draft choice and thus cannot possibly play, or Karlos for that matter? Our problem is we watch our players too closely and only see highlights of others. We get hung up on every mistake while forgetting other players have the same flaws.
metzelaars_lives Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Bill, you could say almost the exact same thing for a LT and a DE. Look at Joe Thomas, how many games has he "taken over and won" for the Browns? How about JJ Watt? Sure, there were a couple games last year were he willed the Texans to win by his play but still not nearly as much as a good QB would. Does that mean no team should pick those positions in the first round? Or in the top ten? So, a team with QB problems probably should only select QBs in the first round. And to your other point, you can find DE and LT not in the first round as well. Jason Peters and Greg Hardy are examples of that. Is it harder/rare? Of course it is, just like it is for finding a starting CB. Can you find "serviceable" CBs past round 1? Of course. Now, if you're saying a team doesn't need great CBs or a great LT or a great DE because they have a great QB, I would agree with that. Excellent post. After rewatching the game I realize it could have been much much closer. The third quarter was going badly for us and could have easily swung their way. Luckily they screwed themselves. Our problem is we watch our players too closely and only see highlights of others. We get hung up on every mistake while forgetting other players have the same flaws. So true. Been saying this for years with respect to our offensive line. According to 90% of the posters on this website, our offensive line always sucks and has always sucked. "Oh imagine how much better (x running back) would have been if he had a decent offensive line..." Someone last week even intimated that Losman and Edwards were doomed and never got a fair shake because the line was so bad. The only year in recent memory that the Bills line really sucked was last year. In 2012 it may have been the best in football! People act as if every other line in the league is like the Cowboys current unit. People still talk about this year's line as if it sucks. It doesn't suck at all. It's at least average if it isn't above average. Edited November 10, 2015 by metzelaars_lives
GunnerBill Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 In 2012 it may have been the best in football! People act as if every other line in the league is like the Cowboys current unit. People still talk about this year's line as if it sucks. It doesn't suck at all. It's at least average if it isn't above average. Whilst I agree with you that people generally think this line is worse compared to the rest of the league than it is (and the standard around the league is not good I have to say) the 2012 Bills line was definitely not the best in football. The 9ers were the best, but there were other very good lines about - the Browns and ironically Rex's Jets spring to mind. I think it was a top 10 group but that is as far as I'd go. Chan's system helped the line look better than it was. This year I think the Bills line ranks somewhere between 14 and 20 in the league.... the problem is it is inconsistent. This weekend was its best outing of the season without any question, it has had bad days as well though - they were horrible against New England for example and were not great against the Titans either.
Bill from NYC Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 I've always looked at Levy the coach as a manager type. Not a knock by any means, because it took a special type of coach to manage the talent and egos of those teams. Levy the GM set the team back 5-10 years. Arggg. I completely agree. Levy was very good at managing people. I never thought of him as a football man in the traditional sense.
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