Buffalo Barbarian Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 I think we all know the real reason Kiko was traded is that Rex watched all the episodes of "Cooking with Kiko" and decided he probably couldn't learn the defense. He did, however, make and eat the various dips. neither can the rest of the defense
dave mcbride Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 I had no idea the deal only took 20 minutes. Looking it up to confirm that I came across this article which confirms that and gives interesting analysis on the trade. The "sports science" angle with the Eagles I found very interesting. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2015/03/04/eagles-sell-high-on-a-declining-lesean-mccoy/ Good link.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 Weak sauce dude Lots of personal speculation here He had a year that was not up to his standards......and had a hamstring injury this year.......that is pretty much it at you and Greggy with your "speculation" excuse. Your belief that McCoy is going to return to All-Pro status is speculation as well........it's just that his performance the past two seasons and the data regarding the decline of RB's of a certain age and mileage does not support your opinions.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 at you and Greggy with your "speculation" excuse. Your belief that McCoy is going to return to All-Pro status is speculation as well........it's just that his performance the past two seasons and the data regarding the decline of RB's of a certain age and mileage does not support your opinions. Spot on!
billsfanmiami(oh) Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) You're wilfully misreading what I'm saying. I'm not saying they're the same at all. I'm trying to convey that investing a lot in the RB position isn't something that many elite organizations do. Good, productive players at the position are relatively easy to find, which many good teams show almost every year. I'm basically talking about production from the position, not individual players. There are 4 teams that are undefeated right now, and one other team that's playing at an elite level (Arizona). None invest much in the position. That is a FACT. PS - not once in the post above do I convey that they're the same player. Gio Bernard & Jeremy Hill from Cincy say hello. Edited November 7, 2015 by billsfanmiami(oh)
FireChan Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 Gio Bernard & Jeremy Hill from Cincy say hello. Jonathan Stewart was selected 13th overall too. Really it's just the team with a HoF QB and a HoF coach that don't invest much in the position. Lacy was a 2nd rounder. Chargers took Melvin Gordon. Todd Gurley is dominating. Even Shady was a 2nd rounder. The "RB is devalued" narrative is the most overplayed angle in sports.
Deranged Rhino Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 at you and Greggy with your "speculation" excuse. Your belief that McCoy is going to return to All-Pro status is speculation as well........it's just that his performance the past two seasons and the data regarding the decline of RB's of a certain age and mileage does not support your opinions. Excuse? No, it's a fact. You're speculating. And, as I said yesterday, so am I. You don't know for sure what the future holds, no matter how many numbers you look at. Unlike most, I'm not basing my opinion on speculative data, I'm basing it on watching the guy play. This year. Last year his numbers went down not because he hit the wall but because of a myriad of issues that are still haunting Kelly's scheme. You don't like to admit that but the games are all there online to watch. You should treat yourself and then you'll see it wi your own eyes. Kelly was the biggest reason Shady's numbers dropped. He's also the only reason Shady was available via trade. The difference between our positions, other than watching the guy play rather than just reading stat lines and rehashing old cliches about RBs, is I'm speculating that a guy who is barely 27 and has been an elite playmaker for the past four plus seasons, has plenty left in the tank. Which, of course, would be great for Buffalo. You and BBF are speculating (based on conjecture and the history of other players at the position) that his "window is closed" and his contract is going to be an "albatross" for the near future. Both of which would be very bad for Buffalo. Call me a glass half full guy, but I'm rooting for McCoy to shut all the haters up tomorrow and for seasons to come. No question, I agree. I'm speculating that his window hasn't closed and he's still an elite RB in this league as much as others are speculating the other way. I just think there's actual evidence this season -- albeit brief -- that McCoy is still at that elite level. It's up to McCoy to prove that to fans though on a week to week basis.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 Jonathan Stewart was selected 13th overall too. Really it's just the team with a HoF QB and a HoF coach that don't invest much in the position. Lacy was a 2nd rounder. Chargers took Melvin Gordon. Todd Gurley is dominating. Even Shady was a 2nd rounder. The "RB is devalued" narrative is the most overplayed angle in sports. So Carolina, Cincy, SD and St. Louis are elite organizations now? The RB position has been devalued for a decade now so calling it overplayed is laughable. The position is rebounding a little in value because defenses are being built to defend the pass and are subsequently more vulnerable to the run........but outside of what Seattle has done, running games aren't otherwise making much of an impact in January. What's more, further proving the devaluation of the position......the talent at the RB position is WAY down over what it once was. A lot of the great athletes who would have once ridden the pine in the NFL are now being re-purposed earlier and turned into pass rushers, LB's and DB's where they are being put to greater use.
FireChan Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 So Carolina, Cincy, SD and St. Louis are elite organizations now? The RB position has been devalued for a decade now so calling it overplayed is laughable. The position is rebounding a little in value because defenses are being built to defend the pass and are subsequently more vulnerable to the run........but outside of what Seattle has done, running games aren't otherwise making much of an impact in January. What's more, further proving the devaluation of the position......the talent at the RB position is WAY down over what it once was. A lot of the great athletes who would have once ridden the pine in the NFL are now being re-purposed earlier and turned into pass rushers, LB's and DB's where they are being put to greater use. Those organizations are not elite, no. But they are a few of the many examples of teams who didn't get the memo that RB's are devalued. Like I said, there isn't one organization who doesn't invest a decent amount of resources into their RB situation whose QB isn't Peyton or Brady. It's overplayed in the sense that folks act like no other team invests in the RB position. It's tiresome to read these posts that act like the Bills are the only team giving RB's big contracts. We aren't. We don't have a great QB, which makes virtually any RB effective. We need a great RB to drag this team to the postseason like AP did with the VIkings and we took a shot on one. Even if the Shady trade blows up, and Shady sucks, if we don't find a franchise QB, does it even matter? We swung for the fences and that's that.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 Excuse? No, it's a fact. You're speculating. And, as I said yesterday, so am I. You don't know for sure what the future holds, no matter how many numbers you look at. Unlike most, I'm not basing my opinion on speculative data, I'm basing it on watching the guy play. This year. Last year his numbers went down not because he hit the wall but because of a myriad of issues that are still haunting Kelly's scheme. You don't like to admit that but the games are all there online to watch. You should treat yourself and then you'll see it wi your own eyes. Kelly was the biggest reason Shady's numbers dropped. He's also the only reason Shady was available via trade. The difference between our positions, other than watching the guy play rather than just reading stat lines and rehashing old cliches about RBs, is I'm speculating that a guy who is barely 27 and has been an elite playmaker for the past four plus seasons, has plenty left in the tank. Which, of course, would be great for Buffalo. You and BBF are speculating (based on conjecture and the history of other players at the position) that his "window is closed" and his contract is going to be an "albatross" for the near future. Both of which would be very bad for Buffalo. Call me a glass half full guy, but I'm rooting for McCoy to shut all the haters up tomorrow and for seasons to come. And I pointed out tape to you that showed McCoy not following his blocks in preseason and writing checks at the LOS that his slightly slower feet can no longer cash. Your response to that was to tell me how good he WAS a couple years ago. The worst thing for me is that he SHOULD be better. Even in decline, with his talent, there was no reason that he should have been under 4.5 ypc last year. In fact, this is actually his third season as an average per carry or below rusher in the last 4. This is not an elite RB and it's not just because he's lost a step physically. It's a combination of things....mostly choices by him.......like choosing to not follow a block and take a 4 yard gain with a solid tackle versus going wide for no yards and a gentle impact.......and it was right there for the Bills to see. Third calling him a gamer in this thread was priceless. "Gamers" follow the same block into harms versus Jacksonville as they do versus New England.
Deranged Rhino Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Those organizations are not elite, no. But they are a few of the many examples of teams who didn't get the memo that RB's are devalued. Like I said, there isn't one organization who doesn't invest a decent amount of resources into their RB situation whose QB isn't Peyton or Brady. It's overplayed in the sense that folks act like no other team invests in the RB position. It's tiresome to read these posts that act like the Bills are the only team giving RB's big contracts. We aren't. We don't have a great QB, which makes virtually any RB effective. We need a great RB to drag this team to the postseason like AP did with the VIkings and we took a shot on one. Even if the Shady trade blows up, and Shady sucks, if we don't find a franchise QB, does it even matter? We swung for the fences and that's that. I am with you in the sense that the "RBs are devalued" argument is not the same as "RBs are worthless in the NFL". Too many people make the mistake of conflating those two positions. The position became devalued because the rules of the game changed drastically a decade ago in an effort to up passing numbers and point totals. And what BADOL says is true in the sense a lot of guys who would have been RBs in the 80s and 90s in college / HS switched to WR where they could get the ball in space more often. That certainly had an effect on the talent pool of guys coming into the league. But that doesn't mean there aren't extraordinary talents at the RB position anymore, or that teams don't need a running game to win in January. That's just taking it way too far. And I pointed out tape to you that showed McCoy not following his blocks in preseason and writing checks at the LOS that his slightly slower feet can no longer cash. Your response to that was to tell me how good he WAS a couple years ago. The worst thing for me is that he SHOULD be better. Even in decline, with his talent, there was no reason that he should have been under 4.5 ypc last year. In fact, this is actually his third season as an average per carry or below rusher in the last 4. This is not an elite RB and it's not just because he's lost a step physically. It's a combination of things....mostly choices by him.......like choosing to not follow a block and take a 4 yard gain with a solid tackle versus going wide for no yards and a gentle impact.......and it was right there for the Bills to see. Third calling him a gamer in this thread was priceless. "Gamers" follow the same block into harms versus Jacksonville as they do versus New England. Preseason?! Just stop dude. You're embarrassing yourself now. First off, preseason was the first year in a new scheme and it was practice. Forget the fact he was playing on one leg since week two of camp, even if he was healthy you're telling me that a single preseason game (in year one of a new system) is more indicative of where he is as a player compared to actual game footage from less than 7 months ago? You're reaching now. You're a student of the game, go watch his games last year. You keep using those numbers (without any context mind you) as proof he's in decline. Go watch those games and see if you have the same answer. You won't if you're honest. Edited November 7, 2015 by GreggyT
FireChan Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 I am with you in the sense that the "RBs are devalued" argument is not the same as "RBs are worthless in the NFL". Too many people make the mistake of conflating those two positions. The position became devalued because the rules of the game changed drastically a decade ago in an effort to up passing numbers and point totals. And what BADOL says is true in the sense a lot of guys who would have been RBs in the 80s and 90s in college / HS switched to WR where they could get the ball in space more often. That certainly had an effect on the talent pool of guys coming into the league. But that doesn't mean there aren't extraordinary talents at the RB position anymore, or that teams don't need a running game to win in January. That's just taking it way too far. Preseason?! Just stop dude. You're embarrassing yourself now. First off, preseason was the first year in a new scheme and it was practice. Forget the fact he was playing on one leg since week two of camp, even if he was healthy you're telling me that a single preseason game (in year one of a new system) is more indicative of where he is as a player compared to actual game footage from less than 7 months ago? You're reaching now. You're a student of the game, go watch his games last year. You keep using those numbers (without any context mind you) as proof he's in decline. Go watch those games and see if you have the same answer. You won't if you're honest. That's why I say the narrative is overplayed. There's truth to it, but it is taken to crazy extremes.
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 at you and Greggy with your "speculation" excuse. Your belief that McCoy is going to return to All-Pro status is speculation as well........it's just that his performance the past two seasons and the data regarding the decline of RB's of a certain age and mileage does not support your opinions. Hows that Darby prediction working out for you? Spot on! As if you would know
Deranged Rhino Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 That's why I say the narrative is overplayed. There's truth to it, but it is taken to crazy extremes. Absolutely. I agree (and was trying to agree w you in that post but I'm typing on the run). Like all cliches, they become cliche because there is truth to it.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 Hows that Darby prediction working out for you? As if you would know My Darby prediction is working out very well, along with Watkins, McCoy, the Bills season. It looks like I do know....
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 My Darby prediction is working out very well, along with Watkins, McCoy, the Bills season. It looks like I do know.... Just like most of your posts are misinformed.......this one is as well.... The Darby post was to Bado not you As far as you go....your basically full of **** most the time.....
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) Just like most of your posts are misinformed.......this one is as well.... The Darby post was to Bado not you As far as you go....your basically full of **** most the time..... You mean one of the most informed. I don't bat 100%, but more like 90%. The thing I missed on was the Cleveland Browns but other than that I have been on point with my analysis with all things football. Edited November 7, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 You mean one of the most informed. I don't bat 100%, but more like 90%. The thing I missed on was the Cleveland Browns but other than that I have been on point with my analysis with all things football. It is usually the people that think they are the smartest ones int he room are just the ones that post just how much crap they can throw at the wall and see what sticks........ but lets stay on point.....your trying to talk about the demise of McCoy right? In his first year with a hamstring injury You dont know jack crap about how this player is going to play for us based on the data you have in less then a full season.....what you are basically doing is hoping he plays like **** so you are right (which makes me want to vomit) But......the fact is that healthy McCoy has looked pretty good the last 2 weeks.......he is a versitile weapon on both run and pass. He wont go to the pro bowl this year for sure......but we are gonna need more then 1 season before we start calling a player that has not been injury prone in the past, is under 30, injury prone and on the decline Not enough data to support your theory.....sorry
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 It is usually the people that think they are the smartest ones int he room are just the ones that post just how much crap they can throw at the wall and see what sticks........ but lets stay on point.....your trying to talk about the demise of McCoy right? In his first year with a hamstring injury You dont know jack crap about how this player is going to play for us based on the data you have in less then a full season.....what you are basically doing is hoping he plays like **** so you are right (which makes me want to vomit) But......the fact is that healthy McCoy has looked pretty good the last 2 weeks.......he is a versitile weapon on both run and pass. He wont go to the pro bowl this year for sure......but we are gonna need more then 1 season before we start calling a player that has not been injury prone in the past, is under 30, injury prone and on the decline Not enough data to support your theory.....sorry We will have to disagree that there is "not enough data to support the theory McCoy is decline".
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2015 Posted November 7, 2015 We will have to disagree that there is "not enough data to support the theory McCoy is decline". Not really much of a disagreement You dont have it
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