BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Yup. Read it. It's speculation still. Maybe you should look up the definition of the word? You're struggling with this concept. Just because someone writes about it, doesn't make it true or universally applicable. Is it true the majority of RBs decline as they hit 30? Sure. Are there exceptions to this rule? Yes. Is Shady one of them? He's 27 and it's too early to tell conclusively unless you speculate. His play on the field, when healthy this year, shows he's still special. You can deny this all you want to make your case -- but it just shows you have no interest in having an honest discussion about this. Your mind is made up, it was months ago. Shady's done and the Bills gave him a contract that will be an "albatross" to the Bills' future. Good on you for being so principled and sticking to your initial assessment of the deal, facts be damned. YOU wanted FACTUAL evidence that McCoy is in decline and PFF gave it to you. You just can't accept it.
Maury Ballstein Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Do people really think McCoy hasn't played well? I don't get it. He's been our best player on offense. Not seeing the same thing most of you are seeing. Since he's been 100%, McCoy has looked spectacular. He's going to have a huge game on Sunday. The "running backs are all the same" narrative got a little too oversimplified there for a minute- McCoy is a special back. Yep and yep. Buff bills forever narrative is funny. He made his claim in preseason and is sticking to it. Who needs to watch the games ?
8-8 Forever? Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 I was against this trade and still am. The net return is just not worth it. Even if Kiko got hurt in Buffalo this year his contract was affordable and we rolled the dice another year. Trading him for an overvalued RB who has seen limited action and provided less then stellar production; sorry, McCoy wasn't worth the money and the trade. Id have rather traded a draft pick for McCoy, a 3rd round at best for 2016. Spiller was only slightly less production then MehCoy and more affordable. we so got the best of this trade. Spiller and Kiko have played even less than McCoy. Plus Kiko will never be right; Spiller can't get on the field. any we got the worst of it? Can't predict pulling a hammy. Happens at all ages. At least the Bills are going for it. Finally. you are micro managing it. no more Ralph Wilson thinking please. lets go build a winner
Deranged Rhino Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 YOU wanted FACTUAL evidence that McCoy is in decline and PFF gave it to you. You just can't accept it. Again, you're incorrect. You can't definitively prove McCoy's window has closed because the future is unwritten. No one knows. The best anyone can do is project -- which is inherently speculative. It's very difficult to have a real conversation with you when you're so desperate to be right you're unwilling to look at other possibilities. The article paints a picture and makes a prediction based on the numbers -- that doesn't mean it's 100% accurate or it's going to go the way PFF says. Which is my point. It's SPECULATION that you happen to agree with because you really, really, REALLY want to be right about McCoy being done. I watched McCoy play last year, every snap. His numbers going down had nothing to do with his "decline" and everything to do with Kelly's system and substitution patterns. I've gone over this before at length. And as I said then, time will tell who is ultimately right on the issue, but anyone who says they KNOW 100% for certain McCoy is done is not being honest.
dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) Let me know when Lewis is a three time all pro and wins a rushing title. But that's the past, right? It doesn't matter. And there's no room for sentiment because that past production never helped the Bills. As for whether Lewis would have made the Bills, which another poster mentioned: if he didn't, that would have been evidence of an evaluation failure. He's a helluva player and he makes a lot of yardage on his own. I like him a lot. McCoy is a good player and has looked sensational at times, but the fact that he's been dinged up testifies to league-wide trends regarding RBs with a lot of mileage. Some might see the hamstring as a fluke, but the lost games and lost production are typical of RBs with that many lifetime carries. I think McCoy has the potential to light it up in the final 9 games, but if you play the percentages you're gonna think that spending a fortune on a RB with a ton of carries already isn't the wisest of moves. There are exceptions. Let's just hope he's the next Fred Taylor/Tony Dorsett/Curtis Martin/Eric Dickerson (great in his year 28 and 29 seasons) rather than the next LaDainian Tomlinson/Clinton Portis/Marshall Faulk/Shaun Alexander/Jamal Lewis. Everyone in the latter group fell off the cliff after their year-27 seasons. There are more in the latter category than the former. Edited November 6, 2015 by dave mcbride
Deranged Rhino Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 But that's the past, right? It doesn't matter. And there's no room for sentiment because that past production never helped the Bills. As for whether Lewis would have made the Bills, which another poster mentioned: if he didn't, that would have been evidence of an evaluation failure. He's a helluva player and he makes a lot of yardage on his own. I like him a lot. McCoy is a good player and has looked sensational at times, but the fact that he's been dinged up testifies to league-wide trends regarding RBs with a lot of mileage. Some might see the hamstring as a fluke, but the lost games and lost production are typical of RBs with that many lifetime carries. I think McCoy has the potential to light it up in the final 9 games, but if you play the percentages you're gonna think that spending a fortune on a RB with a ton of carries already isn't the wisest of moves. There are exceptions. Let's just hope he's the next Fred Taylor/Tony Dorsett/Curtis Martin/Eric Dickerson (great in his year 28 and 29 seasons) rather than the next LaDainian Tomlinson/Clinton Portis/Marshall Faulk/Shaun Alexander/Jamal Lewis. Everyone in the latter group fell off the cliff after their year-27 season. There are more in the latter category than the former. You're really going to double down on your ridiculous comparison?! Oh man, come on. Lewis is not on the same level as McCoy -- this year or years past. Trying to argue that he is, despite all evidence to the contrary, is pretty hilarious.
dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Again, you're incorrect. You can't definitively prove McCoy's window has closed because the future is unwritten. No one knows. The best anyone can do is project -- which is inherently speculative. It's very difficult to have a real conversation with you when you're so desperate to be right you're unwilling to look at other possibilities. The article paints a picture and makes a prediction based on the numbers -- that doesn't mean it's 100% accurate or it's going to go the way PFF says. Which is my point. It's SPECULATION that you happen to agree with because you really, really, REALLY want to be right about McCoy being done. I watched McCoy play last year, every snap. His numbers going down had nothing to do with his "decline" and everything to do with Kelly's system and substitution patterns. I've gone over this before at length. And as I said then, time will tell who is ultimately right on the issue, but anyone who says they KNOW 100% for certain McCoy is done is not being honest. The reason his numbers were down last year was because of injuries to o-line starters in the first 4 games. He averaged 4.7 ypc the final 12 games. I wouldn't read too much into last season's ypc stats (not that you do).
Deranged Rhino Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 The reason his numbers were down last year was because of injuries to o-line starters in the first 4 games. He averaged 4.7 ypc the final 12 games. I wouldn't read too much into last season's ypc stats (not that you do). Certainly the injuries and reshuffling along the O-Line played a role as well. Good call.
dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) You're really going to double down on your ridiculous comparison?! Oh man, come on. Lewis is not on the same level as McCoy -- this year or years past. Trying to argue that he is, despite all evidence to the contrary, is pretty hilarious. You're wilfully misreading what I'm saying. I'm not saying they're the same at all. I'm trying to convey that investing a lot in the RB position isn't something that many elite organizations do. Good, productive players at the position are relatively easy to find, which many good teams show almost every year. I'm basically talking about production from the position, not individual players. There are 4 teams that are undefeated right now, and one other team that's playing at an elite level (Arizona). None invest much in the position. That is a FACT. You're really going to double down on your ridiculous comparison?! Oh man, come on. Lewis is not on the same level as McCoy -- this year or years past. Trying to argue that he is, despite all evidence to the contrary, is pretty hilarious. PS - not once in the post above do I convey that they're the same player. Edited November 6, 2015 by dave mcbride
Deranged Rhino Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 You're wilfully misreading what I'm saying. I'm not saying they're the same at all. I'm trying to convey that investing a lot in the RB position isn't something that many elite organizations do. There are 4 teams that are undefeated right now, and one other team that's playing at an elite level (Arizona). None invest much in the position. That is a FACT. Your original post implied Lewis and McCoy are the same, if not Lewis was better because he was cheaper. That's what I'm picking on. They're not the same caliber RB, today, or any other day. Injuries included. McCoy is a special, top 3 RB in the league. People are arguing he's on the decline (an argument that was never made until he became a Bill btw), I disagree. There's no way to know which side is right on that issue until his contract is up because no one knows the future. But I do know that Lewis is not the same level RB as McCoy. It's ridiculous to compare the two just because they went to the same college.
dave mcbride Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) Your original post implied Lewis and McCoy are the same, if not Lewis was better because he was cheaper. That's what I'm picking on. They're not the same caliber RB, today, or any other day. Injuries included. McCoy is a special, top 3 RB in the league. People are arguing he's on the decline (an argument that was never made until he became a Bill btw), I disagree. There's no way to know which side is right on that issue until his contract is up because no one knows the future. But I do know that Lewis is not the same level RB as McCoy. It's ridiculous to compare the two just because they went to the same college. Production. That's what I'm talking about. The Patriots are VERY well coached (forget about Brady for a second) and they figure out ways to get the ball into the hands of their backs in ways that maximize their talents. Lewis is probably as quick/shifty in space as McCoy, and he's as good a receiver. He's not as good a back overall, but he is a VERY productive player because of how he is used--and he's used a lot. Matched up with Blount, they have a great running attack even if they only use it periodically. The same goes for Shane Vereen, who was a total stud in the SB last year, making numerous difficult catches that kept the chains moving. Basically, the Pats are better than the Bills at roster building, and it's not simply about Brady. Of course, they're better than everyone else too, so the Bills are in good company. Edited November 6, 2015 by dave mcbride
Deranged Rhino Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Production. That's what I'm talking about. The Patriots are VERY well coached (forget about Brady for a second) and they figure out ways to get the ball into the hands of their backs in ways that maximize their talents. Lewis is probably as quick/shifty in space as McCoy, and he's as good a receiver. He's not as good a back overall, but he is a VERY productive player because of how he is used--and he's used a lot. Matched up with Blount, they have a great running attack even if they only use it periodically. The same goes for Shane Vereen, who was a total stud in the SB last year, making numerous difficult catches that kept the chains moving. Basically, the Pats are better than the Bills at roster building, and it's not simply about Brady. Of course, they're better than everyone else too, so the Bills are in good company. Gotcha.
boyst Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 we so got the best of this trade. Spiller and Kiko have played even less than McCoy. Plus Kiko will never be right; Spiller can't get on the field. any we got the worst of it? Can't predict pulling a hammy. Happens at all ages. At least the Bills are going for it. Finally. you are micro managing it. no more Ralph Wilson thinking please. lets go build a winner Just because we got the best of the trade doesn't mean we should have made the trade. We should have never made the trade. That's my argument. McCoy acquisition has not benefited us as it should have. Let me know when Lewis is a three time all pro and wins a rushing title. What he has done in the past is the past. Yes, he's been productive for us but anyone would have been productive. We have enough playmakers that not having McCoy would not have changed much. Find my how many RB's go to their second team and flourish. Even L Tomlinson didn't do super amazing awesome in NJ.
Max997 Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 @AroundTheNFL Injury roundup: Kiko Alonso slated to return to Eagles; Ryan Mathews questionable http://at.nfl.com/ND5uQy4 Odds he makes it through the entire game are slim
John from Riverside Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Just because we got the best of the trade doesn't mean we should have made the trade. We should have never made the trade. That's my argument. McCoy acquisition has not benefited us as it should have. What he has done in the past is the past. Yes, he's been productive for us but anyone would have been productive. We have enough playmakers that not having McCoy would not have changed much. Find my how many RB's go to their second team and flourish. Even L Tomlinson didn't do super amazing awesome in NJ. Was LT a lot older when he moved onto his 2nd team? And no....not any running back would have flourished with this team....our run blocking has been horrid and our WR's a mash unit
QB Bills Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 They could easily have had mccoy AND kiko this year. The fact that Philly called them and they completed the deal in 20 minutes tells you how eager chip kelly was to get rid of him. A linebacker who can cover is just what this defense is missing right now. We had one of the better ones in the league and gave him away.
boyst Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Was LT a lot older when he moved onto his 2nd team? And no....not any running back would have flourished with this team....our run blocking has been horrid and our WR's a mash unit McCoy 5 games, 78 carries, 304 yards, 4.6 avg, 1 TD, 33 lng. Williams 4 games, 42 carries, 226 yards, 5.4 avg, 3 TD, 41 lng. ...yawn.
FireChan Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 Was LT a lot older when he moved onto his 2nd team? And no....not any running back would have flourished with this team....our run blocking has been horrid and our WR's a mash unit LT was 29/30 and was already declining fast. And actually bounced back in NY.
John from Riverside Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 McCoy 5 games, 78 carries, 304 yards, 4.6 avg, 1 TD, 33 lng. Williams 4 games, 42 carries, 226 yards, 5.4 avg, 3 TD, 41 lng. ...yawn. You mean the same Williams who has been out for concussion protocol? Jesus LT was 29/30 and was already declining fast. And actually bounced back in NY. Chan, Thanks for looking that up So basically 2 years difference.....which in NFL RB years is a lifetime
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 6, 2015 Posted November 6, 2015 One Pitt Panther RB: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoLe01.htm The other Pitt Panther RB: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LewiDi00.htm Both were drafted by the Eagles. Both were available this past offseason. One cost less and required less of a commitment than the other. The more expensive one doesn't appear to be quicker and more dynamic than the less expensive one. I do realize that hindsight is 20/20, so of course factor that in. But the dime-a-dozen argument does have some merit. I saw both guys at Pitt quite a bit. I thought lewis was the better back at the time. His issue is staying healthy.
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