Fire Doug Whaley signs

[BuffaloBillsForever]

 

I think that you are infatuated with the idea of starting fresh, clean slate, from scratch, etc. I get it. I think you are wrong, but I get it.

With a new owner, a GM he was looking at the option to replace last offseason and not under contract next year it couldn't happen at a better/more approriate time IMO.

Edited October 30, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever

[NickelCity]

With a new owner, a GM he was looking at the option to replace last offseason and not under contract next year it couldn't happen at a better/more approriate time IMO.

 

I think it could definitely happen. I would expect Pegula will want his own guy. I just hope it doesn't.

[thebandit27]

 

Average drafting at its best (with the exception of one player Darby that I loved when they drafted him) and overpaying for mediocre FA's like Clay and Harvin, giving egregious contracts to declining players such as McCoy . Paying a full back 3 million a year. Egregious free agent signings like Chris Williams. Bad trades for Bryce Brown and Mike Williams.

 

Not to mention egregious moves on EJ and Sammy Watkins that have wasted 3 1st round picks. 150 million team cap hit for 2016.

 

Sorry that I don't like how this team is built.

 

I would say they've had pretty good drafts since he's been in charge. If we count 2013, he's drafted:

 

1 4 Sammy Watkins WR Clemson 2 44 Cyrus Kouandjio T Alabama 3 73 Preston Brown ILB Louisville 4 109 Ross Cockrell CB Duke 5 153 Cyril Richardson G Baylor 7 221 Randell Johnson LB Florida Atlantic 7 237 Seantrel Henderson T Miami (Fla.) 2013 - Buffalo Bills RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 16 EJ Manuel QB Florida State 2 41 Robert Woods WR USC 2 46 Kiko Alonso MLB Oregon 3 78 Marquise Goodwin WR Texas 4 105 Duke Williams FS Nevada 5 143 Jonathan Meeks DB Clemson 6 177 Dustin Hopkins K Florida State 7 222 Chris Gragg TE Arkansas

 

Plus Darby, Miller, Karlos, Steward, and Dez Lewis.

 

20 players, 7 starters (Darby, Miller, Sammy, Brown, Henerson, Kiko, Woods), 3 role players (Goodwin, Duke, Gragg), 1 solid backup (Kouandjio), and 2 guys (Hopkins and Cockrell) contributing for other teams.

 

Keep in mind that out of the 510 players drafted between the 2013 and 2014 drafts, only 6 have made the Pro Bowl (L. Bell, T. Frederick, Z. Martin, C. Moseley, A. Donald, O. Beckham). If Pro Bowls are the standard, then there are 27 GMs that need to be fired.

[Fadingpain]

For those that remember the Bills from 2003-2010, you would know this is a much more talented team than prior to 5 years ago. Nix, then whaley have made misses, but overall they built a much better team than the above stated years of incompetence in the front office.

 

I don't hate Whaley. should he have kept Cassel, yes, is EJ deplorable, yes, but he drafted relatively well, and then when we didn't have a first round pick, he convinces the Pegulas to open the well, and spend to the cap in cash for these free agents. We haven't seen it come together due to a horrible season of injuries.

Given that the Bills during that stretch of time were one of the worst run organizations in N. American major league sports, having more talent now than then is not a very relevant yardstick to go by.

 

What matters is talent level compared to our competitors, now.

 

I think the overall talent level of this team is greatly overestimated by the majority of this board, and we are seeing proof of that as the season plays out.

 

Yes we've suffered a lot of injuries of late, but we were quite healthy with a returning Dareus for the Patriots game, and were out-classed. Again.

 

That is the barometer I'll go by.

 

Whaley's mismanagement of the QB position alone and the ensuing Watkins fiasco should have already cost him his job.

 

It will be interesting to see if his K is renewed.

[thebandit27]

 

Yes we've suffered a lot of injuries of late, but we were quite healthy with a returning Dareus for the Patriots game, and were out-classed. Again.

 

That is the barometer I'll go by.

 

Then you are going to find out, very quickly, that every team in the NFL that isn't NE is a disappointment.

 

 

Whaley's mismanagement of the QB position alone and the ensuing Watkins fiasco should have already cost him his job.

 

It will be interesting to see if his K is renewed.

 

I always find the QB criticism interesting: what, in your opinion (and yes, I'm allowing hindsight here), should he have done?

[Fadingpain]

 

Then you are going to find out, very quickly, that every team in the NFL that isn't NE is a disappointment.

 

 

 

I always find the QB criticism interesting: what, in your opinion (and yes, I'm allowing hindsight here), should he have done?

I don't mean the loss to NE was a disappointment; no one has been able to beat them this year.

 

I mean being outclassed was the disappointment; we were not capable of giving them a game and that game was not a lot different than almost all of them over the last decade. That was the disappointment.

 

What should Whaley have done? For a starter, we need to be drafting at least one QB every year until we hit on one, and his assessment that EJ was a potential NFL talent, and a 1st round talent nonetheless, is an offense worthy of dismissal.

The man is paid, in part, to be a judge of talent. Drafting EJ in the first round shows a shocking lack of judgment.

 

Whaley himself said "We are in QB purgatory" and for the most part, seems OK with that.

 

That's also unacceptable.

[jahnyc]

I do not think the drafting has been very good, with some exceptions, including Darby. We should not give Whaley any credit for Watkins since he gave up a first round pick and a fourth round pick to move up and draft him. At that point of the draft, there is little chance that you will draft a bad player so I am not sure what draft expertise he showed by drafting Watkins. Darby, Brown and Alonso were very good picks. CK has been a bust in relation to where he was drafted in a very strong draft. The other guys have been disappointments to some degree.

[thebandit27]

I don't mean the loss to NE was a disappointment; no one has been able to beat them this year.

 

I mean being outclassed was the disappointment; we were not capable of giving them a game and that game was not a lot different than almost all of them over the last decade. That was the disappointment.

 

What should Whaley have done? For a starter, we need to be drafting at least one QB every year until we hit on one, and his assessment that EJ was a potential NFL talent, and a 1st round talent nonetheless, is an offense worthy of dismissal.

The man is paid, in part, to be a judge of talent. Drafting EJ in the first round shows a shocking lack of judgment.

 

Whaley himself said "We are in QB purgatory" and for the most part, seems OK with that.

 

That's also unacceptable.

 

NE has outclassed everyone; as I said, by that definition, every team is a disappointment thus far.

 

The team needed to draft a QB in 2013, so they took their shot. There really isn't anyone else from that draft that looks the part. They had a chance to take their pick of the litter, so they did. It didn't work out. At the time of the 2014 draft, EJ certainly didn't look like he didn't belong, so they gave him a second year to see what he's got. I suppose there's an argument that they could've tried to trade up from round 2 to take Bridgewater or Carr, but the jury is most decidedly still out on both of those guys, so they'd have been in a spot where they were unsure of 2 guys coming into this season instead of one.

 

The purgatory comment has been explained ad nauseum: he meant that they weren't going to be drafting high enough to take one of the top prospects because they were too good a team. It's not unacceptable to believe that he's assembled a good team.

 

Their biggest problems this season have been injuries and inconsistency on defense (partially due to guys not knowing their assignments in Rex's scheme yet).

[metzelaars_lives]

Prior to this season, virtually every NFL analyst would have told you that, aside from the QB position, the Bills had as talented a roster as any team in the game. Doug Whaley largely put together that roster. He has had a few very good drafts. And I would not hang the QB position on him. He tried with Manuel, I liked the pick at the time, no they should not have used another high pick on Carr or Bridgewater as Manuel actually had a mildly encouraging rookie year. I didn't really get the Cassel trade but, ehh whatever. Plus the Taylor signing looks to be a good one. Guys, Doug Whaley can only put the roster together. What happens after that is up to the coaches. Whaley put a good roster together yet they are imploding on and off the field. You tell me.

 

Ya know, Whaley put together the team last year that went 9-7 with poor QB play pretty much throughout the season. He IMPROVED the roster going into this season yet now they are playing undisciplined football. What changed between last year and this year? Hint: it wasn't Whaley.

 

And OP, I have been a diehard Bills fan growing up in Buffalo since my first game, week 1 1985, and that wasn't even close to the most disheartening loss I've ever seen. It was a close loss. They happen to every team, every season. A disheartening loss is when you are beating the s**t out of the Patriots all game, up by two scores with two minutes to go in their house on national television in a game no one expected you to win, you can taste the victory, you are ready for an epic celebration, all you have to do is not fumble a kickoff return and then- well yeah.

Edited October 30, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[Deranged Rhino]

 

I would say they've had pretty good drafts since he's been in charge. If we count 2013, he's drafted:

 

1 4 Sammy Watkins WR Clemson 2 44 Cyrus Kouandjio T Alabama 3 73 Preston Brown ILB Louisville 4 109 Ross Cockrell CB Duke 5 153 Cyril Richardson G Baylor 7 221 Randell Johnson LB Florida Atlantic 7 237 Seantrel Henderson T Miami (Fla.) 2013 - Buffalo Bills RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL 1 16 EJ Manuel QB Florida State 2 41 Robert Woods WR USC 2 46 Kiko Alonso MLB Oregon 3 78 Marquise Goodwin WR Texas 4 105 Duke Williams FS Nevada 5 143 Jonathan Meeks DB Clemson 6 177 Dustin Hopkins K Florida State 7 222 Chris Gragg TE Arkansas

 

Plus Darby, Miller, Karlos, Steward, and Dez Lewis.

 

20 players, 7 starters (Darby, Miller, Sammy, Brown, Henerson, Kiko, Woods), 3 role players (Goodwin, Duke, Gragg), 1 solid backup (Kouandjio), and 2 guys (Hopkins and Cockrell) contributing for other teams.

 

Keep in mind that out of the 510 players drafted between the 2013 and 2014 drafts, only 6 have made the Pro Bowl (L. Bell, T. Frederick, Z. Martin, C. Moseley, A. Donald, O. Beckham). If Pro Bowls are the standard, then there are 27 GMs that need to be fired.

 

Good stuff.

 

 

What should Whaley have done? For a starter, we need to be drafting at least one QB every year until we hit on one...

 

This philosophy will never work in the NFL. 99% of guys, even elite level studs, need time to grow into the QB position in the NFL. There's a lot being thrown at them in terms of a jump in talent across the ball from them, on top of being asked to be the CEO of the offense. If you draft one every year, you'll never have the time to properly assess the one you drafted the year before. Not to mention, as GM, you'll be run out of town before you ever see the fruits of your labor.

 

There have certainly been misses under Whaley, especially at QB, but this is just a bad philosophy to employ for ANY GM.

[NickelCity]

Prior to this season, virtually every NFL analyst would have told you that, aside from the QB position, the Bills had as talented a roster as any team in the game. Doug Whaley largely put together that roster. He has had a few very good drafts. And I would not hang the QB position on him. He tried with Manuel, I liked the pick at the time, no they should not have used another high pick on Carr or Bridgewater as Manuel actually had a mildly encouraging rookie year. I didn't really get the Cassel trade but, ehh whatever. Plus the Taylor signing looks to be a good one. Guys, Doug Whaley can only put the roster together. What happens after that is up to the coaches. Whaley put a good roster together yet they are imploding on and off the field. You tell me.

 

Ya know, Whaley put together the team last year that went 9-7 with poor QB play pretty much throughout the season. He IMPROVED the roster going into this season yet now they are playing undisciplined football. What changed between last year and this year? Hint: it wasn't Whaley.

 

Bingo.

[Dennis in NC]

 

Thoughts?

 

Get bent.

 

If you are pissed about EJ Manuel, you may need to blame Buddy Nix instead. I think the Manuel drafting was Buddy's final act as GM. We will never really get the lowdown on who did what in that draft, but I think that was Buddy. After ignoring the QB position for his whole tenure (maybe), he HAD TO DRAFT A QB, and it was a lousy QB class to choose from.

 

As for this "ego" thing, where do you get that crap? Is this about Bryce Brown perhaps?

 

[Best Player Available]

Prior to this season, virtually every NFL analyst would have told you that, aside from the QB position, the Bills had as talented a roster as any team in the game. Doug Whaley largely put together that roster. He has had a few very good drafts. And I would not hang the QB position on him. He tried with Manuel, I liked the pick at the time, no they should not have used another high pick on Carr or Bridgewater as Manuel actually had a mildly encouraging rookie year. I didn't really get the Cassel trade but, ehh whatever. Plus the Taylor signing looks to be a good one. Guys, Doug Whaley can only put the roster together. What happens after that is up to the coaches. Whaley put a good roster together yet they are imploding on and off the field. You tell me.

 

Ya know, Whaley put together the team last year that went 9-7 with poor QB play pretty much throughout the season. He IMPROVED the roster going into this season yet now they are playing undisciplined football. What changed between last year and this year? Hint: it wasn't Whaley.

 

 

And OP, I have been a diehard Bills fan growing up in Buffalo since my first game, week 1 1985, and that wasn't even close to the most disheartening loss I've ever seen. It was a close loss. They happen to every team, every season. A disheartening loss is when you are beating the s**t out of the Patriots all game, up by two scores with two minutes to go in their house on national television in a game no one expected you to win, you can taste the victory, you are ready for an epic celebration, all you have to do is not fumble a kickoff return and then- well yeah.

 

it's weird, on paper yes the Bills seem and in some areas indeed are very talented. However on the field for the most part they have been less than impressive. The titans win reminded me of the Vikes last year. Look at the hoody*** I swear that guy can take a UDFA and make him look good. he does it every year. it's having a system that is almost like plug and play. That makes that team dangerous and very good +++ every year. Lose Revis? Who cares? This is all scheme getting get rid of the losing culture and secure a coaching staff that is up too the job. I am really diasappointed in all the coaching. And IMO Crossman should have been canned the day after the London disaster. Analysts and paper stats IMO do not mean jack unless you're talking W's. I don't want to give up on Rex but he needs to dig deep and turn this talent into winners. he needs to stand tall against the Coughlin's, Hoody's of the league. I seriously do not think he is up too the task.But it's year 1.

 

Whaley's comment on "QB Purgatory" makes some sense. I am in Tyrods corner but his style won't translate to a long career. We need to draft someone to sit and learn. WTF is up with David Lee? Honestly EJ's mistakes last week were what I thought we brought him in to correct?

Edited October 30, 2015 by Best Player Available

[NickelCity]

 

Thoughts?

 

Get bent.

 

If you are pissed about EJ Manuel, you may need to blame Buddy Nix instead. I think the Manuel drafting was Buddy's final act as GM. We will never really get the lowdown on who did what in that draft, but I think that was Buddy. After ignoring the QB position for his whole tenure (maybe), he HAD TO DRAFT A QB, and it was a lousy QB class to choose from.

 

 

Regardless of who drafted him, the idea that missing on a QB is a fireable offense for a GM who has shown skill in recognizing talent and roster building is flawed. The success rate of QB drafting is appalling.

 

You take your chances and thank the stars if they pan out. Tyrod was a big pickup and I'm incredibly thankful he's on this team. He can lead a team to the playoffs imo, and should allow us to be successful until (a) we draft our franchise QB or (b) he develops into one. Both are low probability, that's why there are so few franchise guys in the league. The issue with this team is coaching, or adjusting to said coaching. Injuries aren't helping either.

[WotAGuy]

When Donohoe was under fire and fans wanted him gone, I bought several t-shirts from a vendor outside the stadium that had a rude, but not obscene, Fire Donohoe message on them. I wore one and was carrying in several others. The first two gates I tried to get in would not let me in with the shirts. I had to turn the one I was wearing inside out and hide the others before I finally got in the third gate I tried. I didn't flaunt them once inside because I didn't want to get thrown out. I'm pretty sure we lost that game too.

[Rob's House]

 

I agree that they're judged on wins and losses; I simply disagree that W/L record is the only criterion.

 

Let me ask it this way: is this Bills team talented enough to make the playoffs? If not, what should Whaley have done since January of 2013 to make it so?

 

You may say no to the first question, and you may have a perfectly reasonable answer to the second question...I'm just not sure what that answer would be, hence my asking.

I know it wasn't asked if me but I'll answer anyway.

 

1. Maybe. Depends on TT.

 

2. An inexhausive list off the top of my head:

- Not draft Manuel in the first round.

- Not go "all in" on Manuel

- Draft Derek Carr or Teddy Bridgewater (which probably only costs us Kouandjio and Richardson)

- Not trade a 4th for Bryce Brown

- Draft someone other than Watkins and keep a 1st and 4th (definitely could have had Carr or Bridgewater)

- Keep Fred Jackson

- Keep Cassel

- The O-line could be better.

 

Far and away the biggest gripe is QB mismanagement. A lot of good work has been undermined by those decisions. In fairness, if TT is the man or if he solves it next year (if he gets another year) then he may prove to be a great GM, but right now things are looking pretty iffy. Like EJ iffy.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Rob's House

[MRW]

I don't mean the loss to NE was a disappointment; no one has been able to beat them this year.

 

I mean being outclassed was the disappointment; we were not capable of giving them a game and that game was not a lot different than almost all of them over the last decade. That was the disappointment.

 

You know, that's a common sentiment, but what would "giving them a game" have looked like? Really, anyone who just wants to gloss over the fact that the Bills ended up losing that game by a TD + 2 point conversion needs to explain what their standards are. And yes, you can tell me all about garbage time, the Pats* let off the pressure, etc., but the game is 60 minutes and a game where you trail by a score with two minutes left and the ball is not one where you didn't give your opponent a game.

[BobbyC81]

While I feel your pain, Its not just about the GM this year! So many factors are involved but the buck stops at the GM for the talent on the field, and stops at the coaches at what they do with that talent.

 

So, who hired this HC? The people in the room were the CEO, the GM, and the new owners Terry & Kim Pegula, and the owners made the hire. We recently found out from Leroi that the CEO Russ Brandon has been involved in the draft process, and probably persuaded the new owners that they would know who they wanted as their HC after they spoke with the prospects for the HCing job.

 

 

Makes one wonder about their hiring process. Did they talk to the Jets owner?

Edited October 30, 2015 by LittleJoeCartwright

[mead107]

I know when you come to a game next year you will see a win. Look foward to seeing you next year. Give a hug to the little one

[BuffaloBillsForever]

 

Thoughts?

 

Get bent.

 

If you are pissed about EJ Manuel, you may need to blame Buddy Nix instead. I think the Manuel drafting was Buddy's final act as GM. We will never really get the lowdown on who did what in that draft, but I think that was Buddy. After ignoring the QB position for his whole tenure (maybe), he HAD TO DRAFT A QB, and it was a lousy QB class to choose from.

 

As for this "ego" thing, where do you get that crap? Is this about Bryce Brown perhaps?

 

 

 

We know exactly the lowdown. Assistant GM Doug Whaley and the Bills scouts were involved heavily with player evaluation for the draft (as well as a lesser degree by Buddy Nix). Doug Whaley came up with and had full control and final say of the draft board based on the scouting. Buddy Nix selects players based off the draft board Doug Whaley created along with collaboration from Doug Whaley and the rest of the team in the draft room about the pick in question.

Edited October 30, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever