JohnC Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 If it were up to me I'd use my first round pick on a QB every year and just accept the fact that I may only win a SB every 5-7 years from there on out. But Watkins was my highest rated player in that draft class....probably the most dynamic freshman WR in NCAA history and I would never have thought the Bills would get a chance to select him........and I also generally think that first round picks are overvalued..........so I thought it was a rational trade and still support what he was trying to do. Sammy just needs to pull his act together and produce now. I refuse to believe that 7 injuries are just a fluke. He needs to figure out how to prepare and armor up better. In hindsight would it have been wiser to trade down and select either Derek Carr or Terry Bridgewater? I also consider Watkins an elite talent. But without the qb position solidified his talents are gong to be underutilized. The Raiders selected Carr two years ago and then selected Cooper this year. They appear to have gotten the drafting sequence for positions right.
GG Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 They appear to have gotten the drafting sequence for positions right. In Whaley's mind, so did the Bills
FireChan Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 In Whaley's mind, so did the Bills That's the real problem.
garbag3man Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 In hindsight would it have been wiser to trade down and select either Derek Carr or Terry Bridgewater? I also consider Watkins an elite talent. But without the qb position solidified his talents are gong to be underutilized. The Raiders selected Carr two years ago and then selected Cooper this year. They appear to have gotten the drafting sequence for positions right. I know that there are a lot of armchair talent scouts here, and even myself (a strong supporter of EJ) can safely say that he is done here. HOWEVER, that is exactly what we had done. We drafted a QB (who got injured in his first year, and was still a question mark after only 12 games in his first season), and then drafted a super star WR. Carr had a 76.1 QB rating last year, not exactly a superstar (I know he showed flashes), and I don't want this to be a conversation about EJ. My only point is that we in fact did draft a QB, and then a super star WR in the next year. The QB didn't pan out, but it was what we did. The bi-polar impatience that this fan base & team has (while understandable) is what ruins young players, and makes it hard to lure a good coach here. We are already calling for our 1st year HC's head, because we are 1 game below .500 (with a favorable schedule the rest of the way) with EVERY player we have having been hurt. We insist that we draft a new QB in the first round every year, despite the fact that the NFL game takes time to learn and get comfortable with.
birdog1960 Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 In Whaley's mind, so did the Bills yep. enuf said.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 I know that there are a lot of armchair talent scouts here, and even myself (a strong supporter of EJ) can safely say that he is done here. HOWEVER, that is exactly what we had done. We drafted a QB (who got injured in his first year, and was still a question mark after only 12 games in his first season), and then drafted a super star WR. Carr had a 76.1 QB rating last year, not exactly a superstar (I know he showed flashes), and I don't want this to be a conversation about EJ. My only point is that we in fact did draft a QB, and then a super star WR in the next year. The QB didn't pan out, but it was what we did. The bi-polar impatience that this fan base & team has (while understandable) is what ruins young players, and makes it hard to lure a good coach here. We are already calling for our 1st year HC's head, because we are 1 game below .500 (with a favorable schedule the rest of the way) with EVERY player we have having been hurt. We insist that we draft a new QB in the first round every year, despite the fact that the NFL game takes time to learn and get comfortable with. Problem with your assessment is that it's unrealistic to expect the average fan to be patient after 15 years of utter and complete failure.
garbag3man Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Problem with your assessment is that it's unrealistic to expect the average fan to be patient after 15 years of utter and complete failure. As a fan, I am just as impatient. But I also know that rash decisions, impatient decisions, are ALWAYS bad decisions. We have a new owner, he has been here for 1yr, and is investing in this team. Despite disappointment, and frustration, patience is still necessary, or we will continue making stupid decisions.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 In hindsight would it have been wiser to trade down and select either Derek Carr or Terry Bridgewater? I also consider Watkins an elite talent. But without the qb position solidified his talents are gong to be underutilized. The Raiders selected Carr two years ago and then selected Cooper this year. They appear to have gotten the drafting sequence for positions right. It would have been wiser just to select either one of them with their first round pick. This is part of the reason why I say just select the top QB on your board with that first round pick every year. When the Bills drafted EJ I said it was only the wrong decision if they were unwilling to go back to the well for a QB in the next draft. Of course.......they were unwilling to go back to the well. So accepting that reality I didn't see the Watkins trade as a bad "B" option.
metzelaars_lives Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 I know that there are a lot of armchair talent scouts here, and even myself (a strong supporter of EJ) can safely say that he is done here. HOWEVER, that is exactly what we had done. We drafted a QB (who got injured in his first year, and was still a question mark after only 12 games in his first season), and then drafted a super star WR. Carr had a 76.1 QB rating last year, not exactly a superstar (I know he showed flashes), and I don't want this to be a conversation about EJ. My only point is that we in fact did draft a QB, and then a super star WR in the next year. The QB didn't pan out, but it was what we did. The bi-polar impatience that this fan base & team has (while understandable) is what ruins young players, and makes it hard to lure a good coach here. We are already calling for our 1st year HC's head, because we are 1 game below .500 (with a favorable schedule the rest of the way) with EVERY player we have having been hurt. We insist that we draft a new QB in the first round every year, despite the fact that the NFL game takes time to learn and get comfortable with. Excellent post. I agree. As much as I came to terms with the fact that it wasn't happening for EJ before many people on this website, I also do not blame the Bills for not taking a QB in 2014 as EJ had shown enough his rookie year to warrant him getting another look. I also had or really still have no issue with the Watkins trade. He was the clear cut #1 WR in that draft and was as can't miss a prospect as there is. It's so easy for people to just sit back and say that we could've/should've just taken Beckham but Watkins was a full step higher- more on the level of a Julio Jones/AJ Green.
metzelaars_lives Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 Problem with your assessment is that it's unrealistic to expect the average fan to be patient after 15 years of utter and complete failure. I could be wrong but I am interpreting your post to mean that the Raiders were patient with Carr and now it's paying off, whereas the Bills were not patient enough with Manuel and somehow failed him. I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to say before I respond. But I would note that I was gushing on here this past offseason about Carr and, of course, as you can imagine, most people were exclaiming that he sucks and, naturally, they would rather have EJ Manuel. Part of talent evaluation is knowing who to draft but maybe a bigger part of it is knowing when to be patient with a guy vs. knowing when to just cut your losses. The Bills gave Manuel ample opportunities. Carr showed plenty his rookie year for Raiders fans to optimistic about.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 I could be wrong but I am interpreting your post to mean that the Raiders were patient with Carr and now it's paying off, whereas the Bills were not patient enough with Manuel and somehow failed him. I want to make sure I understand what you're trying to say before I respond. But I would note that I was gushing on here this past offseason about Carr and, of course, as you can imagine, most people were exclaiming that he sucks and, naturally, they would rather have EJ Manuel. Part of talent evaluation is knowing who to draft but maybe a bigger part of it is knowing when to be patient with a guy vs. knowing when to just cut your losses. The Bills gave Manuel ample opportunities. Carr showed plenty his rookie year for Raiders fans to optimistic about. The concerns about Carr were real. He looked terrible when faced with any pressure in college. I mean, if that kind of improvement could be anticipated then there would be a dozen first round QB's this spring. He's really stepped up his game at the next level.
metzelaars_lives Posted November 2, 2015 Posted November 2, 2015 (edited) The concerns about Carr were real. He looked terrible when faced with any pressure in college. I mean, if that kind of improvement could be anticipated then there would be a dozen first round QB's this spring. He's really stepped up his game at the next level. Really? I was under the impression that he dominated in college (it was the MWC after all and I watched him play a few times being a Wyoming fan) and that the concern was that he didn't go up against big enough competition in college to be taken seriously as a top ten prospect. Regardless, I didn't see enough of him in college to really scout him but I can tell you I watched him improve over the course of last season and I was very optimistic about his chances this season. My point is that enough people saw enough good things in him last season to commit to him whereas a guy like Manuel clearly did not show enough. Imagine if Carr came into this past offseason and completely regressed from his rookie year, stunk throughout training camp and the preseason, so much so that the Raiders were like "no way we can go into a season with just this guy- call Kyle Orton and give him whatever he wants..." Cause that's what happened in Buffalo. Edited November 2, 2015 by metzelaars_lives
JohnC Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I know that there are a lot of armchair talent scouts here, and even myself (a strong supporter of EJ) can safely say that he is done here. HOWEVER, that is exactly what we had done. We drafted a QB (who got injured in his first year, and was still a question mark after only 12 games in his first season), and then drafted a super star WR. Carr had a 76.1 QB rating last year, not exactly a superstar (I know he showed flashes), and I don't want this to be a conversation about EJ. My only point is that we in fact did draft a QB, and then a super star WR in the next year. The QB didn't pan out, but it was what we did. The bi-polar impatience that this fan base & team has (while understandable) is what ruins young players, and makes it hard to lure a good coach here. We are already calling for our 1st year HC's head, because we are 1 game below .500 (with a favorable schedule the rest of the way) with EVERY player we have having been hurt. We insist that we draft a new QB in the first round every year, despite the fact that the NFL game takes time to learn and get comfortable with. I know that there are a lot of armchair talent scouts here, and even myself (a strong supporter of EJ) can safely say that he is done here. HOWEVER, that is exactly what we had done. We drafted a QB (who got injured in his first year, and was still a question mark after only 12 games in his first season), and then drafted a super star WR. Carr had a 76.1 QB rating last year, not exactly a superstar (I know he showed flashes), and I don't want this to be a conversation about EJ. My only point is that we in fact did draft a QB, and then a super star WR in the next year. The QB didn't pan out, but it was what we did. The bi-polar impatience that this fan base & team has (while understandable) is what ruins young players, and makes it hard to lure a good coach here. We are already calling for our 1st year HC's head, because we are 1 game below .500 (with a favorable schedule the rest of the way) with EVERY player we have having been hurt. We insist that we draft a new QB in the first round every year, despite the fact that the NFL game takes time to learn and get comfortable with. There was a scouting book on Manuel when he was drafted. The consensus of the scouts was that his mechanics were raw and he was only a first read qb. The scouting book on him was accurate. Is he salvageable as a prospect? I don't believe so. That doesn't mean he can't carve out a long and prosperous career as a backup. As you indicated you didn't want this discussion to be on Manuel. So let's not make it so. I brought up the scenario that if the Bills would have drafted either Carr or Bridgewater in the Watkins's draft year this franchise would be in a much better situation. I strongly believe that. You might not? The issue isn't having patience or not although a generation is a long time. The issue is that this franchise will not be successful until it has a legitimate starting qb. Manuel definitely is not the answer. Is Tyrod Taylor the answer? I actually like him a lot but I have major doubts about his durability. Until the qb position is stabilized the Bills will not be a serious team. It's as simple as that. As far as the HC I had little regard for him before he was hired, and my position on him has not changed; it is more confirmed.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Really? I was under the impression that he dominated in college (it was the MWC after all and I watched him play a few times being a Wyoming fan) and that the concern was that he didn't go up against big enough competition in college to be taken seriously as a top ten prospect. Regardless, I didn't see enough of him in college to really scout him but I can tell you I watched him improve over the course of last season and I was very optimistic about his chances this season. My point is that enough people saw enough good things in him last season to commit to him whereas a guy like Manuel clearly did not show enough. Imagine if Carr came into this past offseason and completely regressed from his rookie year, stunk throughout training camp and the preseason, so much so that the Raiders were like "no way we can go into a season with just this guy- call Kyle Orton and give him whatever he wants..." Cause that's what happened in Buffalo. Yeah he looked like a fraud against good teams. His bowl performance against a mediocre USC team was absolutely atrocious. Looked like a braindead QB who let the stage get the best of him who would throw the ball up for grabs when pressured. Basically, like his brother. That game cost him the better part of a round. He put up huge numbers in his career but got in shootouts with non-prospects that definitely made you wonder if it was legit to judge him against that low quality of pass defense. His physical talent wasn't a question.
3rdand12 Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Real hate from 'fans', real angry response from Sammy, fake outrage, fake talking to, fake public apology, mouth breathers appeased, the world continues to turn on its access. excess attempted respectful fix
dave mcbride Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) The concerns about Carr were real. He looked terrible when faced with any pressure in college. I mean, if that kind of improvement could be anticipated then there would be a dozen first round QB's this spring. He's really stepped up his game at the next level. Carr played well late last season, and overall his sack rate was ridiculously low. He fell because of a family member. He's the opposite of his brother in terms of getting rid of the ball. Edited November 3, 2015 by dave mcbride
klos63 Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 If it were up to me I'd use my first round pick on a QB every year and just accept the fact that I may only win a SB every 5-7 years from there on out. But Watkins was my highest rated player in that draft class....probably the most dynamic freshman WR in NCAA history and I would never have thought the Bills would get a chance to select him........and I also generally think that first round picks are overvalued..........so I thought it was a rational trade and still support what he was trying to do. Sammy just needs to pull his act together and produce now. I refuse to believe that 7 injuries are just a fluke. He needs to figure out how to prepare and armor up better. Your highest rated player? How do you go about rating players?
thebandit27 Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Your highest rated player? How do you go about rating players? I cannot speak for BADOL, but I graded over 150 players from last year's draft. I watched as many live games as possible, then I re-watched every snap I could find on every single one of them (draftbreakdown.com is a great resource), wrote up profiles, reviewed them, and gave them a grade. Then I monitored the offseason workouts as a spot-check to see if anything looked red-flaggish (weight, uncommonly low strength, timed speed, etc.), which doesn't change much most of the time. I don't give a number grade the way scouts do (which is typically on a scale of 1.0 to 9.0--though some teams use 1.0 to 8.0); I usually just assign a round-based grade and what position(s) and scheme(s) I think is the best fit. Here's an example that I posted from last year's guard class: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174895-bandits-2015-draft-report-ogs/ I would imagine that most folks on here that grade players do it somewhat similarly. There are actually some surprisingly sharp football minds on this board.
FireChan Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I cannot speak for BADOL, but I graded over 150 players from last year's draft. I watched as many live games as possible, then I re-watched every snap I could find on every single one of them (draftbreakdown.com is a great resource), wrote up profiles, reviewed them, and gave them a grade. Then I monitored the offseason workouts as a spot-check to see if anything looked red-flaggish (weight, uncommonly low strength, timed speed, etc.), which doesn't change much most of the time. I don't give a number grade the way scouts do (which is typically on a scale of 1.0 to 9.0--though some teams use 1.0 to 8.0); I usually just assign a round-based grade and what position(s) and scheme(s) I think is the best fit. Here's an example that I posted from last year's guard class: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174895-bandits-2015-draft-report-ogs/ I would imagine that most folks on here that grade players do it somewhat similarly. There are actually some surprisingly sharp football minds on this board. Kudos for this. Miller has the look of a solid-but-unspectacular guard to me. I think he’ll be a starter in the NFL, and maybe even as a rookie. I don’t ever see him making an all-pro team, but rather being a 4th-round type guy that comes in and contributes immediately.
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