If Cassel plays decently, is that it for Whaley?

[Kelly the Dog]

Agreed. Plus, if Whaley was sure EJ was the franchise QB they needed, they wouldn't have traded down and risked losing the chance to draft him. But they did trade down, got an extra second which was turned into Kiko and then McCoy.

Yep. There is virtually zero chance that Whaley was convinced EJ was a franchise QB simply because of that trade. There is no way he thinks "I am the only guy that knows this about EJ."

[Nanker]

I still think the JESTS would have picked EJ if he were there. They bit on Geno in the 2nd because EJ wasn't there for them. So Doug Nix would have had to have taken Geno or Nassib in the 2nd to "get themselves a QB". Doing that we would not have gotten either Wood or Kiko in the 2nd.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Nanker

[FireChan]

I still think the JESTS would have picked EJ if he were there. They bit on Geno in the 2nd because EJ wasn't there for them. So Doug Nix would have had to have taken Geno or Nassib in the 2nd to "get themselves a QB". Doing that we would not have gotten either Wood or Kiko in the 2nd.

Or we could've gotten Woods and Kiko and somebody else with our 1st and maybe Glennon.

[Deranged Rhino]

Or we could've gotten Woods and Kiko and somebody else with our 1st and maybe Glennon.

 

Absolutely could have, but everyone knew the Bills were going QB shopping in that draft. It was a foregone conclusion. The trade back, which is often overlooked when people are wailing about Whaley (ha) and EJ, shows that at the VERY least the Bills (as in their whole scouting department including Whaley and Nix) didn't believe there was a sure fire, can't miss QB prospect to be had.

And, they turned out to be right on the money.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

How about Bridgewater or Carr? Yes, it's hindsight, but Whaley gave up two picks for Watkins when all he had was Manuel and his own delusions.

As prospects bridgewater and carr were crapshoots, too.

 

Look- kaep, upheld as a new standard got benched, Luck- the last sure fire can't miss nfl QB prospect is the 30th rated passer this season. Brady was such an obvious choice the waited six rounds for him... There is some magic fit that comes together when the right QB and head coach are connected with each other. And not one GM on the planet has figured out how to force this to happen repeatedly.

[mannc]

 

Do you mean Hopkins or Bryant? Hopkins is tearing it up this year in the stats. #FantasyNumbers

I meant Bryant, who lasted until the 4th round the year Sammy came out and has outperformed him so far. Hopkins and Watkins only would have played together one year, I think.

[MDH]

My speculation, after learning that Marrone was a Nix and Brandon pick, and after listening to Nix say repeatedly that he wasn't going to leave until he had a franchise QB in place, was that it was a Nix pick that Whaley was totally on board with (which all that means is that EJ was a better long term prospect than Geno or Barkley or Nassib, etc.). Whaley was ready to take over. Nix had his QB and coach in place that he wanted and the Bills could start off with the idea of a whole new look (young President, young coach, young GM and new #1 pick QB.

 

This doesn't absolve Whaley of the responsibility for EJ however because I believe he was totally on board and likely would have made the same choice had he been doing it alone. I don't however, get the sense that Whaley was sure EJ was going to be a franchise QB, only that he needed a chance to show what he could do over time. And now it appears that he's still raw and likely never a starting quality QB.

 

Yeah, if I was to speculate this would pretty much be my take as well.

[GunnerBill]

I meant Bryant, who lasted until the 4th round the year Sammy came out and has outperformed him so far. Hopkins and Watkins only would have played together one year, I think.

 

Outperformed him? Really? Bryant is a vertical threat receiver and as a result has a higher ypc.... but he has fewer catches and fewer yards. I wouldn't swap Sammy for him, not on any day of the week - and I was not a big fan of the trade.

[mannc]

 

Manuel is Whaley's signature move and will be for the rest of his career, unless he hits on a QB in Buffalo or does so with another organization.

 

The trade for Watkins was big, but QB picks define a legacy.

I don't think so. While I agree that QB trumps all these days, the Bills used the 16th pick in a pretty crappy draft (for all positions, not just QB) to take EJ. On the other hand, they used the 4th pick in an absolutely loaded draft (especially at WR) to pick Watkins and traded extra first and fourth round picks for that opportunity. I can forgive the EJ selection because the QB alternatives at that point were poor, and because they traded down to get him, picking up an extra second rounder. And, as scary as it is to think about, EJ is probably the best QB to come out of that draft.

[FireChan]

 

Absolutely could have, but everyone knew the Bills were going QB shopping in that draft. It was a foregone conclusion. The trade back, which is often overlooked when people are wailing about Whaley (ha) and EJ, shows that at the VERY least the Bills (as in their whole scouting department including Whaley and Nix) didn't believe there was a sure fire, can't miss QB prospect to be had.

And, they turned out to be right on the money.

Agreed. I just reject the notion that we had to take Geno in the second if we didn't take EEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeJ.

 

That whole class was really bad though.

[mannc]

 

Outperformed him? Really? Bryant is a vertical threat receiver and as a result has a higher ypc.... but he has fewer catches and fewer yards. I wouldn't swap Sammy for him, not on any day of the week - and I was not a big fan of the trade.

In 13 games, Bryant has 780 yards, 11 TDs and is averaging 20 yards/catch. In 20 games, Watkins has 8 TDs and is averaging less than 15 YPC. Not saying I would swap Watkins for Bryant, but Bryant has outperformed Watkins in several key categories and he was a fourth-round pick as opposed to the fourth overall pick.

[GunnerBill]

In 13 games, Bryant has 780 yards, 11 TDs and is averaging 20 yards/catch. In 20 games, Watkins has 8 TDs and is averaging less than 15 YPC. Not saying I would swap Watkins for Bryant, but Bryant has outperformed Watkins in several key categories and he was a fourth-round pick as opposed to the fourth overall pick.

 

He is a totally different much more limited type of receiver. The Bills were looking for a number 1 guy. If what you are saying is Bryant has been great draft value and Sammy hasn't lived up to 2 first round picks then fine... but I don't believe that equates to outperforming Sammy.

 

 

EDIT: And as much as I didn't particularly like the trade - I do think Sammy is a genuine stud. Get him healthy and get him the ball. Some people have forgotten how good he was last year.

Edited November 3, 2015 by GunnerBill

[Fadingpain]

I would think so, but that's just a hunch. He'll last through the season but will be out come new year. This season is over.

Let me turn this around on you a bit just as an intellectual exercise of sorts.

 

What if Whaley performs decently. Is that it for Cassel?

[Tenhigh]

Agreed. I just reject the notion that we had to take Geno in the second if we didn't take EEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeJ.

 

That whole class was really bad though.

Just to be clear, this has nothing to do with your fire Whaley crus...agenda, right?

[JESSEFEFFER]

This is the best evidence of how much Doug Whaley was involved in picking EJ. I for one do not think EJ is done, either here or elsewhere. The way Tyrod plays it is probably better than 50/50 that EJ plays meaningful football again this year. I've seen plenty of bad QB play/offensive football this year and not many teams that came from 24 down to take the lead.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI2TFbCiI08

[yungmack]

 

Manuel is Whaley's signature move and will be for the rest of his career, unless he hits on a QB in Buffalo or does so with another organization.

 

The trade for Watkins was big, but QB picks define a legacy.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that EJ is indeed Whaley's pick, one he strenuously lobbied for (apparently that's not the case in reality, but let's pretend it is...playing "pretend" is a big, big deal around here).

 

And let's say that EJ is the worst QB ever drafted in the first round (again, that's not true but, you know, we're playing "pretend").

 

And let's stipulate that Whaley traded down to pick him and got Kiko into the bargain (Oh, wait, that actually did happen).

 

And then let's pretend he said EJ would need time to learn the position so he was bringing in an old pro as a teacher/starter (oh, hell, that's true too).

 

Then let's pretend that guy got injured and EJ was thrown into the starters role under a lousy OC, a lousy HC, with no QB coach, playing behind a lousy Oline and then he gets hurt (Wow! That actually happend too. Sorry about that).

 

And then let's pretend there are 3 QBs and Whaley foolishly trades the really, really good one (Oops. Sorry. The one he traded is actually worse than EJ).

 

So, in the end, the guy he was mad dog crazy about hasn't panned out as a starter and might never.

 

In the meantime, Whaley has drafted a slew of guys who are doing just fine, traded for others who've had a major positive impact, signed free agents who are making solid contributions, re-signed key players and keeps finding other guys to fill the holes created by injuries. And so, out of all this, you "focus like a laser" on the one pick that's gone sour. No need to ask if you're a glass half full or a glass half empty guy. Clearly, to you, there isn't even a glass.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Manuel is Whaley's signature move and will be for the rest of his career, unless he hits on a QB in Buffalo or does so with another organization.

 

 

Whaley then is the only GM in history who made his "signature move" before he was ever a GM, and was SO in love with his "signature move" that he traded down and risked losing him in order to get another 2nd round pick.

[FireChan]

Just to be clear, this has nothing to do with your fire Whaley crus...agenda, right?

Zero.

[Beerball]

One Whaley thread is plenty.