If Cassel plays decently, is that it for Whaley?

[machine gun kelly]

I hope you realise how stupid this thread is...

 

Whaley has:

 

1. Got us the #3 ranked guard in the NFL from FA
2. Got us a possible franchise QB
3. got us an elite RB (albeit an injured one)
4. Drafted a top 3 corner without a first round pick
5. Drafted a serviceable guard
6. Drafted a very promising RB in the 5th round

All within the last year. I'm not even gonna mention the smart moves he made last year (ok I am, but briefly: Bringing in Orton, Signing Corey Graham, Drafting Henderson in the 7th, Drafting Preston Brown in the 3rd, the list goes on). None of these things are remotely controversial because I didnt want to list the moves that I thought were smart but other might disagree. In essence this list is only the moves that everyone with more than 3 neurons would think are good. So think before you create threads like this.

Excellent post.

 

For those who hate Whaely, what are your expectations?

 

This is what a top GM does in terms of understanding what are the true needs and hitting on starters in the later rounds. One example is Karlos Williams in the 5th round avg 6 yards a run, and Seantrel Henderson in the 7th becoming a starter. Even if he is average, his is a 7th round pick.

 

It's easy to pick guys like Luck. It's a lot harder finding Preston Brown in the 3rd who has turned out to be a solid MLB. If your going to make your entire decision on EJ, first it was really Nix's pick, and also it was a miss with a few years of bad QB classes. Yes, all of us can be armchair QB's and say, why not Wilson, Dalton, Carr, Bridgewater, but balance that with all of the hits.

 

As the radio guys like Polian say on NFL Radio, be careful what you wish for, and who is better? If you don't have an answer, you have your answer.

[GunnerBill]

One of my points on the Quarterback issue is that Whaley's team deserves their shot at drafting one. Whaley was part of the team that drafted EJ but Monos and Fisher weren't. I have faith in all 3 of those guys and I'd like them to have a chance to take their own guy.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Re the right side of the line, I'm not sure Henderson and Miller are better than their replacements -- at all. Miller has played poorly all season, and Henderson is a weak link. I don't see any dropoff from those two Urbik and CK, at least not yet. In other words, they're not a great loss.

 

Henderson - > Kujo agree but Miller >> Urbik. Urbik is better in pass protection which is an experience thing I think, but he can not run block. Miller can. Maybe not well yet but better than Urbik.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm actually starting to come around to this view, along with the realization that this might be a very poorly coached team. But the Watkins trade/pick is still sticking in my craw and it hurts more and more every time ODB lights it up while Sammy is either injured or getting three targets per game. It was a terrible trade and a lot of us said so at the time. unfortunately, it was Whaley's signature move. I know I need to let it go, but I just can't.

 

I understand your viewpoint on Sammy. I do think you need to let it go, though. Seek professional help if you must.

 

Have you ever watched the video of the War Room whilst they were negotiating for that trade? Watch it carefully - do you know which of those guys is Brandon and which is Littman and Overdorf? then ask whose "signature move" that is. Whaley is the buck-stopper - the GM - so yeah, he gets the credit or blame, but looking at how positively gleeful and ecstatic Brandon is, it's kind of easy to think that there was influence there, especially with the past history of "ticket sales" roster moves from the Bills (TO, VY, etc).

 

That said, Watkins was never hurt in college and OBJ has Manning throwing to him, so it's hard to lay Watkins injuries on Whaley.

[Sisyphean Bills]

 

I understand your viewpoint on Sammy. I do think you need to let it go, though. Seek professional help if you must.

 

Have you ever watched the video of the War Room whilst they were negotiating for that trade? Watch it carefully - do you know which of those guys is Brandon and which is Littman and Overdorf? then ask whose "signature move" that is. Whaley is the buck-stopper - the GM - so yeah, he gets the credit or blame, but looking at how positively gleeful and ecstatic Brandon is, it's kind of easy to think that there was influence there, especially with the past history of "ticket sales" roster moves from the Bills (TO, VY, etc).

 

That said, Watkins was never hurt in college and OBJ has Manning throwing to him, so it's hard to lay Watkins injuries on Whaley.

 

It isn't completely true that he was never hurt. I distinctly recall him hobbling around in a game with his leg wrapped. On the other hand, he didn't get a total knee replacement either.

[mannc]

 

I understand your viewpoint on Sammy. I do think you need to let it go, though. Seek professional help if you must.

 

Have you ever watched the video of the War Room whilst they were negotiating for that trade? Watch it carefully - do you know which of those guys is Brandon and which is Littman and Overdorf? then ask whose "signature move" that is. Whaley is the buck-stopper - the GM - so yeah, he gets the credit or blame, but looking at how positively gleeful and ecstatic Brandon is, it's kind of easy to think that there was influence there, especially with the past history of "ticket sales" roster moves from the Bills (TO, VY, etc).

 

That said, Watkins was never hurt in college and OBJ has Manning throwing to him, so it's hard to lay Watkins injuries on Whaley.

With all the Clemson film they must have watched, did no one notice that the wideout on the other side of the field was pretty good too? Sad. Edited November 3, 2015 by mannc

[dave mcbride]

 

Henderson - > Kujo agree but Miller >> Urbik. Urbik is better in pass protection which is an experience thing I think, but he can not run block. Miller can. Maybe not well yet but better than Urbik.

Miller has been *terrible* this year according to the metrics (and he doesn't look good to the naked eye). But he may well get better. Urbik won't. My point is that right now there isn't much of a drop off if any. I am also not convinced that Henderson has played any better than CK, who played decently against Jax.

[Sisyphean Bills]

With all the film they must have watched on Sammy, did no one notice the wideout on the other side of the field?

 

Do you mean Hopkins or Bryant? Hopkins is tearing it up this year in the stats. #FantasyNumbers

[BillsVet]

I'm actually starting to come around to this view, along with the realization that this might be a very poorly coached team. But the Watkins trade/pick is still sticking in my craw and it hurts more and more every time ODB lights it up while Sammy is either injured or getting three targets per game. It was a terrible trade and a lot of us said so at the time. unfortunately, it was Whaley's signature move. I know I need to let it go, but I just can't.

 

Manuel is Whaley's signature move and will be for the rest of his career, unless he hits on a QB in Buffalo or does so with another organization.

 

The trade for Watkins was big, but QB picks define a legacy.

[John from Riverside]

 

Manuel is Whaley's signature move and will be for the rest of his career, unless he hits on a QB in Buffalo or does so with another organization.

 

The trade for Watkins was big, but QB picks define a legacy.

Except it was Nix pick

[GG]

Except it was Nix pick

 

It really wasn't.

[BuffaloBaumer]

The Bills were desperate for a QB and people would have flipped if we had not picked one in the first round. It was a terrible year and yes, they could have waited for Bridgewater. Cassel is no longer relevant so let's just kill this thread - he's terrible.

[DrDawkinstein]

 

Manuel is Whaley's signature move and will be for the rest of his career, unless he hits on a QB in Buffalo or does so with another organization.

 

The trade for Watkins was big, but QB picks define a legacy.

 

So Kyle Boller defines Ozzie Newsome's legacy? Newsome should have been fired after his first 4-5 years of not properly addressing the QB spot, right?

Edited November 3, 2015 by DrDareustein

[GunnerBill]

 

So Kyle Boller defines Ozzie Newsome's legacy? Newsome should have been fired after his first 4-5 years of not properly addressing the QB spot, right?

 

No because to be fair he did say - unless he hits here or elsewhere. Which Newsome has since with Flacco. However, it is fair to say that Newsome - a revered talent evaluator - took a few swings at a QB before he got it right. I don't believe in the "you have to get your QB straight away or you should be fired" logic. The question should be "are you improving your roster every year?" and Whaley has and is here in Buffalo.

[DrDawkinstein]

 

No because to be fair he did say - unless he hits here or elsewhere. Which Newsome has since with Flacco. However, it is fair to say that Newsome - a revered talent evaluator - took a few swings at a QB before he got it right. I don't believe in the "you have to get your QB straight away or you should be fired" logic. The question should be "are you improving your roster every year?" and Whaley has and is here in Buffalo.

 

Fair enough!

 

And I agree with the rest of your post. Whaley, like Newsome in his early career, has shown he is a good enough drafter and good enough pro-talent scout to get another chance at picking a QB.

Edited November 3, 2015 by DrDareustein

[BillsVet]

Except it was Nix pick

 

Whaley was re-signed in Feruary 2013 when he was Assistant GM. It can be deduced that this contract extension was not merely to serve as Assistant GM. And if that isn't the case, wouldn't it make sense a professional sports team would have a plan on replacing their then 73 year old GM? And if that's the case, wouldn't it make sense the personnel decisions were predominantly made by the incoming as opposed to outgoing GM? And would a professional sports team permit the outgoing guy to have so much influence on the incoming guy's tenure? At worst, it was a joint decision, albeit one made when the incoming guy scouted Manuel heavily and admitted as much.

 

Or you can revert to homerism which is bereft of all logic and critical thinking skills.

 

 

So Kyle Boller defines Ozzie Newsome's legacy? Newsome should have been fired after his first 4-5 years of not properly addressing the QB spot, right?

 

No, Ozzie Newsome selected Flacco in 2008 and before then acquired a QB who held the position from 06-07 when it was clear Boller was not capable after 2005.

 

Ozzie Newsome then, as GM, won a SB with that 1st round QB a few season later. Keep conflating the argument though.

[GunnerBill]

 

No, Ozzie Newsome selected Flacco in 2008 and before then acquired a QB who held the position from 06-07 when it was clear Boller was not capable after 2005.

 

Ozzie Newsome then, as GM, won a SB with that 1st round QB a few season later. Keep conflating the argument though.

 

I have defended what you actually said in your previous post - but I think you are being a little unfair with the above. There are similarities. Newsome had been having a major say in personnel decisions for 6 years in Baltimore but it was as he was transitioning to being formally acknowledged as GM that they selected Boller in 2002. Boller had some accuracy issues and some injury issues early on (not unlike EJ) and they stuck with him basically for 3 years (not unlike EJ) before they moved on. In fact it is fair to say that the Bills have done more to bring other guys in than the Ravens did during the Boller era and you could also argue that the Ravens were wasting a Superbowl standard defense and running game - more so probably than Buffalo has.

 

Whaley has brought in Tyrod this year - who (and I think we are in agreement on this) has shown some nice things and some not so good and is an incomplete at the moment and no doubt they will have another go at taking a Quarterback.

 

So the Newsome - Boller scenario and the Whaley - Manuel scenario are comparable actually. DrD has acknowledged that he slightly misrepresented your post by missing the bit where you said "unless he hits here or elsewhere," but Ozzie Newsome is a good example of a high class GM who despite getting a lot right didn't strike gold immediately at Quarterback. I think Whaley has got a lot right without striking gold yet at QB.

Edited November 3, 2015 by GunnerBill

[MDH]

It really wasn't.

 

Only the people inside the building know. Everyone else is just speculating.

[Kelly the Dog]

Only the people inside the building know. Everyone else is just speculating.

My speculation, after learning that Marrone was a Nix and Brandon pick, and after listening to Nix say repeatedly that he wasn't going to leave until he had a franchise QB in place, was that it was a Nix pick that Whaley was totally on board with (which all that means is that EJ was a better long term prospect than Geno or Barkley or Nassib, etc.). Whaley was ready to take over. Nix had his QB and coach in place that he wanted and the Bills could start off with the idea of a whole new look (young President, young coach, young GM and new #1 pick QB.

 

This doesn't absolve Whaley of the responsibility for EJ however because I believe he was totally on board and likely would have made the same choice had he been doing it alone. I don't however, get the sense that Whaley was sure EJ was going to be a franchise QB, only that he needed a chance to show what he could do over time. And now it appears that he's still raw and likely never a starting quality QB.

[Deranged Rhino]

My speculation, after learning that Marrone was a Nix and Brandon pick, and after listening to Nix say repeatedly that he wasn't going to leave until he had a franchise QB in place, was that it was a Nix pick that Whaley was totally on board with (which all that means is that EJ was a better long term prospect than Geno or Barkley or Nassib, etc.). Whaley was ready to take over. Nix had his QB and coach in place that he wanted and the Bills could start off with the idea of a whole new look (young President, young coach, young GM and new #1 pick QB.

This doesn't absolve Whaley of the responsibility for EJ however because I believe he was totally on board and likely would have made the same choice had he been doing it alone. I don't however, get the sense that Whaley was sure EJ was going to be a franchise QB, only that he needed a chance to show what he could do over time. And now it appears that he's still raw and likely never a starting quality QB.

Agreed. Plus, if Whaley was sure EJ was the franchise QB they needed, they wouldn't have traded down and risked losing the chance to draft him. But they did trade down, got an extra second which was turned into Kiko and then McCoy.