If Cassel plays decently, is that it for Whaley?

[Nihilarian]

Well, I'm just glad that Matt Cassel was able to show off his noodle for an arm with his three picks, and perhaps now it will shut up his Bills supporters.

 

The Cowboys have an excellent line, run game and it still didn't help the duck thrower.

[Never NEVER Give-up]

In the NFL you need a QB to win consistently.

• With Fitz we knew he'd be around .500.
• Tannehill - never sold on him - .500ish as well.
• EJ - probably no better than a 5-6 win guy (per season).
• Brady - probably a 12 win guy (or better). I hate him, but he's the best.
• Tyrod - we still don't know. Some scintillating work on the runs, but passing? Hate to say - he's like EJ so far. Some great, some bad. Though he does protect the ball better! If Tyrod fulfills his upside and stays healthy - we may have something. If not, he'll be a good back-up somewhere between 5-8 wins/year.

As the Bills s/told us in the preseason, the Defense was all-world and would win games for us. See Tenn game - allowed 13 pts & Tyrod got us 2 TD's to win. We should have won yesterday too. Forget everything prior to our taking the 31-27 lead. The 'D' couldn't stop Bortles - plain & simple. No way was EJ gonna lead a last minute comeback with the way he played - already responsible for 4 TD's - 2 for / 2 against. During that last drive we saw some good work and some bad - 50/50 - just enough to get us to mid-field, then comes up short on 4th down. No one can say they were surprised.

[jeffismagic]

The Bills never had a shot at Newton. Of course they would have taken him. Not so sure on Tannehill. But the point about hindsight is dismissive at best. A GM of a team with no known answer at QB needs to keep drafting them until one is found. No one knew what would happen with Brady, and there was no call for drafting him. That was one in a million. You are incorrect about Bridgewater though. Entering his last college season, he was widely regarded as a top prospect, the #1 prospect by many accounts. Carr was highly thought of as well, both far more than EJ Manuel. Manuel's name didn't even start to gain traction until after the combine. He was still thought if as a 3rd or so rounder. Bridgewaters stock plummeted due to a horrendously bad pro day, not anything he did on the football field in season. These GM s are paid well and their Job is to have foresight . Yes, fans have hindsight. But the fans shouldn't have more foresight than the GM. I for one wanted DW to draft Bridgewater and see if one if them worked out. It's the most important position and should take priority over a RT or whatever.

 

Carr and Bridgewater were drafted AFTER EJ Manuel in their respective drafts. There were some supporters and detractors for both. I did like what I heard on Bridgewater coming out. But NFL teams do not draft QB's in the first round every year. The team that has drafted the most 1st round QB's recently? The Cleveland Browns.

 

You just don't draft another late 1st round QB after your 1st round QB had a good rookie year and showed promise. After he got benched in 2014, then you can spend a 1st again.

[Nihilarian]

The Bills never had a shot at Newton. Of course they would have taken him. Not so sure on Tannehill. But the point about hindsight is dismissive at best. A GM of a team with no known answer at QB needs to keep drafting them until one is found. No one knew what would happen with Brady, and there was no call for drafting him. That was one in a million. You are incorrect about Bridgewater though. Entering his last college season, he was widely regarded as a top prospect, the #1 prospect by many accounts. Carr was highly thought of as well, both far more than EJ Manuel. Manuel's name didn't even start to gain traction until after the combine. He was still thought if as a 3rd or so rounder. Bridgewaters stock plummeted due to a horrendously bad pro day, not anything he did on the football field in season. These GM s are paid well and their Job is to have foresight . Yes, fans have hindsight. But the fans shouldn't have more foresight than the GM. I for one wanted DW to draft Bridgewater and see if one if them worked out. It's the most important position and should take priority over a RT or whatever.

Whats sad is it looks like all these highly paid scouts / GM's don't have anymore ability to find a franchise QB then the armchair GM's of the world.

 

Andy Dalton

Russell Wilson

Derek Carr

and fans were saying Colin Kaepernick just two years ago.

 

Mike Mayock stated EJ was like a piece of clay that needed to be molded properly over a period of time while allowing him to develop. Now that doesn't mean throwing the kid to the wolves behind one of the worst offensive lines in the league with little or no running game for two years, and have his OC go pass happy. Now the Bills have another lamb for slaughter in Tyrod Taylor, and make big talk about how they will run the ball this year. Yet the O lines best player this season is the troubled LG who signed for one year. The right side is another disaster this year!

 

Well now, what will happen this upcoming off season when LT Cordy Glenn's contract is up, and Incognito decides to sign elsewhere? Perhaps the Bills with draft a QB again in 2016 so he can be ruined behind bad lines like all the rest for the last 16 years.

[yungmack]

But without the slip he's not there. Still, he stared him down. Terrible play but not pick six or even INT without the slip.

It's possible that Smith still would have ignored Clay even if he didn't fall because EJ telegraphed it so bad. I'm not exonerating him for staring down the WR. It was awful. Smith just ignored Clay right away and went right for the ball because he was reading EJ. If Clay got off clean i still think Smith covers him, that was clearly his man, and doesn't make the quick break he makes on the ball.

I am not knocking you personally about this as it is a common comment around here (probably other boards as well); just using your remarks as an example of something that doesn't stand up to broader evidence. By this I mean that every QB "stares down" his receivers from time to time. Go watch some tape of Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady or any top QB and you will see them doing exactly that play after play, especially when they're getting the ball our in less than three seconds. This is really the least of EJ's many problems.

[Tenhigh]

 

Agreed that McCown>Cassel/Manuel, but he still sucks.

 

Such a predictable non-response. Buddy Nix retired in May 2013. How are you blaming 2011-2013 on Whaley? He was handed the reigns with a 1st rd QB in May 2013 with the plan to let him learn behind a seasoned vet. Anything from then to now, sure, he owns it, but again, who SHOULD he have picked up? Hoyer? McCown? Fitz? Who?

 

 

 

Do you think that Buddy one day just ambled up to Russ Smithers-Brandon and said he was going to retire? I don't, and suspect that Whaley took on more of a personnel management (i.e. decision making) role in early 2013 leading to his promotion to GM. And that includes (as Dave McB noted) scouting and picking a QB he could feature. Why would the Bills permit Nix to take a QB his successor would have to live and die on?

 

If you do, then we're done here.

 

For what it's worth the Bills probably would have been better off with Fitz, and that guy defines what it means to be a journeyman.

So no answer then, check. I'll even play by your nonsensical idea that EJ was ALL Whaley's pick. Who were you taking in the 2013-2015 drafts for QBs? Which one of these QBs selected since 2013 seemed like the guy coming out of college:

 

EJ, Geno, Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr, Garappolo, Johnny Football, Winston and Mariota.

 

Bridgewater and Carr are the ONLY ones in the top 15 in QBR and/or completion percentage. Did you really think either of those 2 were the real deal? I didn't. Hell, who even watched a Fresno State game. The rest of these guys stink out loud. Ironically, in hindsight I agree about Fitz, albeit only marginally but if we kept him, we'd still be middle of the pack at best. You can't get blood from a stone.

[OldTimer1960]

He has started over 70+ games in this league, EJ has 16 now at 6-10. Cassel took over a hurt Tom Brady 1st game of 2008 season and led them 11-5 starting all but 1. They missed the playoffs with a identical record with Miami. He also led KC to a 10-6 record and playoffs. I am not saying he is great but I guarantee he is better than EJ Manual. Ask yourself, why would Dallas sit their backup QB to play a bad Matt Cassell and give us a 5th pick for him? Your statement doesn't make sense when this QB led 2 winning seasons in the NFL!

How did Matt Cassel do for Dallas? 3 INTS, if I recall correctly.

[Kelly the Dog]

I am not knocking you personally about this as it is a common comment around here (probably other boards as well); just using your remarks as an example of something that doesn't stand up to broader evidence. By this I mean that every QB "stares down" his receivers from time to time. Go watch some tape of Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady or any top QB and you will see them doing exactly that play after play, especially when they're getting the ball our in less than three seconds. This is really the least of EJ's many problems.

Agreed. But it also directly led to the INT and pick six.

[birdog1960]

 

How many 1st round picks have they spent on a QB since Tom Brady became their QB?

 

That was the question.

 

He did. He bought an EJ ticket and is getting killed for it! That was 2013. Since then he has picked up TT, another lottery ticket and will buy another one this off-season if he has to.

huh? by your own definition, since ej was 1st rounder he wasn't a lottery ticket. and by your own definition of what constitutes a lottery ticket, whaley hasn't taken a single one. and no. the question was "what would the pats* do?" someone else answered correctly for you. they took a qb in the second among several other picks in recent years that meet your criteria for lottery tickets. this is the logical and historically successful approach to obtaining good qb's. whaley ignores it.

[jeffismagic]

My definition of a lottery ticket is any QB not drafted in the top 5. Mid round QBs in the 1st have a low probability of success.

 

New England has not spent a 1st round pick on a QB recently. The Bills have in 2013. EJ was a lottery ticket. He didn't work. TT was a lottery ticket. TBD.

[BillsVet]

So no answer then, check. I'll even play by your nonsensical idea that EJ was ALL Whaley's pick. Who were you taking in the 2013-2015 drafts for QBs? Which one of these QBs selected since 2013 seemed like the guy coming out of college:

 

EJ, Geno, Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr, Garappolo, Johnny Football, Winston and Mariota.

 

Bridgewater and Carr are the ONLY ones in the top 15 in QBR and/or completion percentage. Did you really think either of those 2 were the real deal? I didn't. Hell, who even watched a Fresno State game. The rest of these guys stink out loud. Ironically, in hindsight I agree about Fitz, albeit only marginally but if we kept him, we'd still be middle of the pack at best. You can't get blood from a stone.

 

Buffalo still is a middle of the road team. In 2+ seasons they've managed to win about 46% of their games which translates to a 7 win season.

 

Owners don't employ GM's who fail to win and as architect of the roster, Doug Whaley hasn't won games.

 

Fitz looked decent yesterday. Better than EJ will ever be. There are also some young guys who show more upside out there, including the guys you specified.

[Nihilarian]

 

Buffalo still is a middle of the road team. In 2+ seasons they've managed to win about 46% of their games which translates to a 7 win season.

 

Owners don't employ GM's who fail to win and as architect of the roster, Doug Whaley hasn't won games.

 

Fitz looked decent yesterday. Better than EJ will ever be. There are also some young guys who show more upside out there, including the guys you specified.

The Jets are showing Buffalo that even an average journeyman QB can play well with a solid supporting cast. good WR corp, good run game, good line. Right now with all the injuries the Bills have none of those.

[dave mcbride]

 

 

So no answer then, check. I'll even play by your nonsensical idea that EJ was ALL Whaley's pick. Who were you taking in the 2013-2015 drafts for QBs? Which one of these QBs selected since 2013 seemed like the guy coming out of college:

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000204027/article/new-bills-gm-doug-whaley-integral-in-ej-manuel-pick

 

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/QB-Manuel-leads-FSU-pro-day/33131f22-5ec7-49fa-9714-7f75bad24312

 

In the last article, it doesn't say who was there for the Bills, but it was Whaley - I remember reading about his presence at the time it happened. Unfortunately, I can't find it on the web, however.

[BuffaloHokie13]

How did Matt Cassel do for Dallas? 3 INTS, if I recall correctly.

And a lower tQBR than EJ Manuel (17.9 vs. 19.2)

[Nanker]

I don't think so. As I've said elsewhere, this is less about Cassel's performance than about the relationship between the coach in year 1 of a big 5-year deal and the GM without a contract come December 31. I don't believe the coaching staff supported the trade.

What makes you say that Dave? What real evidence do you have that that's the case? The only "original" source I ever heard about was from a local reporter that mentioned that some coach(es) wanted Cassel as the starter. That was toward the end of the preseason before they decided to let TT and EJ play more.

 

If you're just speculating on that, then I'll speculate that Cassel only came back with certain of his demands met. To whit, he had to start the first game. (explain why BOTH he and TT were on the field for the opening snap if you disagree) I think it had to do with his contract escalators in his last contract - which is the only reason he re-signed here. I think the FO didn't want to placate him any further, and at the time it seems that the development of both EJ and TT made Matt expendable.

 

Furthermore, I think Cassel or his agent initiated the trade with Dallas. JJ had DW on speed dial because he felt "owed" by The Bills because he paid Orton for "retiring", and then DW talked him out of retirement.

[Doc]

Well, I'm just glad that Matt Cassel was able to show off his noodle for an arm with his three picks, and perhaps now it will shut up his Bills supporters.

 

The Cowboys have an excellent line, run game and it still didn't help the duck thrower.

 

Yeah, the Cowboys' OL is one of the best in the league. So that showing by Cassel was especially troubling.

[birdog1960]

My definition of a lottery ticket is any QB not drafted in the top 5. Mid round QBs in the 1st have a low probability of success.

 

New England has not spent a 1st round pick on a QB recently. The Bills have in 2013. EJ was a lottery ticket. He didn't work. TT was a lottery ticket. TBD.

"I don't see the Pats spending a 1st on a late 1st/2nd round QB. But these are lottery tickets. Sure fire QB's go top 3. Once you are drafting mid 1st and later you are buying a lottery ticket and hoping".

 

you might want to edit this post then.

Edited October 26, 2015 by birdog1960

[Tenhigh]

 

Buffalo still is a middle of the road team. In 2+ seasons they've managed to win about 46% of their games which translates to a 7 win season.

 

Owners don't employ GM's who fail to win and as architect of the roster, Doug Whaley hasn't won games.

 

Fitz looked decent yesterday. Better than EJ will ever be. There are also some young guys who show more upside out there, including the guys you specified.

You can't possibly think Fitz is the answer to ANY question for this team. As for the other guys I specified, which one did you want? There were serious questions about every single one of those guys. I don't know that they aren't all at their ceiling, and neither do you. Honestly man, it can't all be hindsight in your argument. There is talent on this team, the GMs job is to bring in talent. The coaches' job is to take that talent and win games.

[GaryPinC]

I am not knocking you personally about this as it is a common comment around here (probably other boards as well); just using your remarks as an example of something that doesn't stand up to broader evidence. By this I mean that every QB "stares down" his receivers from time to time. Go watch some tape of Aaron Rogers or Tom Brady or any top QB and you will see them doing exactly that play after play, especially when they're getting the ball our in less than three seconds. This is really the least of EJ's many problems.

You're partially right except they don't do it continually like EJ was doing. Myself, I don't consider it the least of his problems since he didn't correct it after the first pick. But with all EJ's faults it's hard to tag a "least".

 

I have been willing to be patient with EJ but pretty much my patience ran out yesterday. He clearly does not have the mental ability to handle the speed of the NFL game. Looking off receivers, recognizing blitzes, feeling the pressure and moving away, not being able to throw a pass away on a critical down, staring receivers, the odd horrible throw. I know I've missed some and at times he does better at all these things but really he can't seem to put them all together correctly with any consistency. His mental process/plan/decision making is not there.

 

I am glad they got rid of Cassel. The Pittsburgh preseason game spoke volumes about all 3 QB's IMO. Manuel may have failed us but I'm glad we took that chance over Meh.

 

I do think TT has a mild sprain, maybe the MCL as has been reported. I think Rex is trying to get him some rest through the bye week in hopes he'll be more effective when heeled up. Certainly wasn't expecting a loss in London though!

[Nihilarian]

You're partially right except they don't do it continually like EJ was doing. Myself, I don't consider it the least of his problems since he didn't correct it after the first pick. But with all EJ's faults it's hard to tag a "least".

 

I have been willing to be patient with EJ but pretty much my patience ran out yesterday. He clearly does not have the mental ability to handle the speed of the NFL game. Looking off receivers, recognizing blitzes, feeling the pressure and moving away, not being able to throw a pass away on a critical down, staring receivers, the odd horrible throw. I know I've missed some and at times he does better at all these things but really he can't seem to put them all together correctly with any consistency. His mental process/plan/decision making is not there.

 

I am glad they got rid of Cassel. The Pittsburgh preseason game spoke volumes about all 3 QB's IMO. Manuel may have failed us but I'm glad we took that chance over Meh.

 

I do think TT has a mild sprain, maybe the MCL as has been reported. I think Rex is trying to get him some rest through the bye week in hopes he'll be more effective when heeled up. Certainly wasn't expecting a loss in London though!

Sometimes those type of games need to happen to build character, and light a fire. It would be completely different if EJ continued to suck all game like Geno, and instead fought his way back outta that huge hole he dug himself. Fans might even be more forgiving had the defense not allowed Bortles that last TD.

 

Not all QB's develop at the same pace, and some take more then four years to completely develop to a starting level QB. EJ still has the arm, and physical tools so it is still possible for him to improve with the mental aspect. EJ did seem to look a whole lot better when he had less time to think while running the hurry up offense. Then remember his first two seasons were with the mutt & Jeff show.

 

I can only think that the entire offense would be better without all the injuries, and with a better line. Then both those young QB's might look a lot better.