Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Well AJ McCarron and Brandon Weedon are looking like AFC Playoff QBs this season. Whoopty Doo! Them grapes would have Some Pucker Power!
26CornerBlitz Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Them grapes would have Some Pucker Power!
Nihilarian Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 I just think the Rex thing is way more complicated In Rex final 2 years he could not get the help from his GM that was needed.....the whole thing was a tire fire (for instance it is pretty much known Rex asked for corner help to make his D work....he didnt get it) Exit Rex....in come new mgt......and coach.....AND NEW GROCERIES TO WORK WITH Now...everyone is upset with Rex here right not to...me included...but ALL aspects need to be looked at not just try to make a simple view of it. The HC/GM situation with the jets was TOXIC I don't think it's that complicated at all. The #4 Bills defense from last year is now a horrendous #20th under Rex Ryan the defensive genius and that defense that was # NUMBER ONE in sacks is now 30th!!! The current Buffalo Bills team has not been a stable team in any regard all year and have been beset with a clear lack of team discipline at times. So many penalties this year. So many mistakes with game management, flag management late defensive calls. Players are not knowing, understanding their respective responsibilities and that's just for the defense. This entire team is pretty much a mess this year, and because of the HC hire. The NY Jets owner fired the GM & HC after a 4-12 season, and then hired some experienced NFL advisers to guide the owner as to who to hire. Charley Casserly & Ron Wolf. Those men advised the new owner to hire GM Former Texans director of college scouting Mike Maccagnan as GM, and from there hired new HC Todd Bowles. These new men set out to acquire the players, and assistant coaches needed to build a winning team, and they did just that in one short year. The NY Jets are #5 in total defense and are #12 in total offense. What Bills fan wouldn't want their team to be 10-5 right now on the verge of the playoffs even with Fitz at QB. I know I would! The Jets also just beat the Patriots something Ryan couldn't get done. Would anyone here care to think that any NY Jets fan isn't happy that Rex Ryan is gone from their team or unhappy he is now the HC in Buffalo? Buffalo Bills now heading to 16 years of no playoffs, and two years in that time at 9-7.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 NO ! fitz was and still is better than EJ and Orton. fitz is not better than TT. might have been better off short term (2011 - 2014), but not long term (2015 - 2017). I guess it depends upon your metrics. One criticism leveled at EJ by many here was: when did he ever take over a game, throw for ~300 yds and 3 TDs and win the game? I don't know that I buy into that as a measure of QB quality (passing yards are not correlated to winning), but it most be acknowledged that TT has yet to demonstrate that ability either - he's come close in the loss to KC but that was a loss. His completion percentage is hovering in the mid-50s for the last 5 games. Well, Fitz has now done that thing, and against the hated (and AFC leading) Pats. I mean, credit where it's due, if you were out of touch during the game and someone said "Brady/Fitz one QB 231 yds. 1 TD 1 INT; 1 QB 296 yds 3 TD 0 INT you would tag Fitz for the 1st and Brady for the 2nd set of stats, AmIRight? The fact is Ol' Fitzy has been a pretty decent QB the last 2 years, so if we'd had him playing like that for us in 2015, we arguably would be better off. It is possible that he may have taken a step, a step I thought he might take in B'lo but instead he regressed. Thing is, if we kept him, would he play like that, or would he still be on the "better than Orton, better than EJ, better than Kolb" level? Fitz himself credits his year with O'Brien, benching and all: "'I probably learned more about football last year than I had the rest of my career in a single season in terms of being able to see the game from a different angle.' That's high praise, considering Fitzpatrick spent three years in Buffalo with his current coordinator, Chan Gailey, a coach he admires." Ryan Fitzpatrick praised Texans head coach Bill O'Brien, and the rest of the Texans staff, yesterday, saying that he learned a lot from them last year. Fitzpatrick threw for 2,483 yards and 17 TDs last year in a Texans uniform. So I think if we kept him, Fitz wouldn't be better off and thus we wouldn't be better off, if that makes sense.
boyst Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Ryan Fitzpatrick would have been good enough to play QB as a backup, relief starter or full fledged starter along the journey. We still could have and likely would have been able to land Taylor or any other QB along the way. We could have taken the hit on the salary cap and done just fine. We would have been better off keeping him than going with Orton, Cassell, Manuel, Lewis, Tuel...who else? The same can be said for having kept Searcy, Poz, etc...so many guys I wanted to keep.
dollars 2 donuts Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 I don't think it's that complicated at all. The #4 Bills defense from last year is now a horrendous #20th under Rex Ryan the defensive genius and that defense that was # NUMBER ONE in sacks is now 30th!!! The current Buffalo Bills team has not been a stable team in any regard all year and have been beset with a clear lack of team discipline at times. So many penalties this year. So many mistakes with game management, flag management late defensive calls. Players are not knowing, understanding their respective responsibilities and that's just for the defense. This entire team is pretty much a mess this year, and because of the HC hire. The NY Jets owner fired the GM & HC after a 4-12 season, and then hired some experienced NFL advisers to guide the owner as to who to hire. Charley Casserly & Ron Wolf. Those men advised the new owner to hire GM Former Texans director of college scouting Mike Maccagnan as GM, and from there hired new HC Todd Bowles. These new men set out to acquire the players, and assistant coaches needed to build a winning team, and they did just that in one short year. The NY Jets are #5 in total defense and are #12 in total offense. What Bills fan wouldn't want their team to be 10-5 right now on the verge of the playoffs even with Fitz at QB. I know I would! The Jets also just beat the Patriots something Ryan couldn't get done. Would anyone here care to think that any NY Jets fan isn't happy that Rex Ryan is gone from their team or unhappy he is now the HC in Buffalo? Buffalo Bills now heading to 16 years of no playoffs, and two years in that time at 9-7. Well said.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) I was furious that they cut Fitz with no real prospects for improvement at the position................ and even more upset when they signed Kevin Kolb and then basically said they HAD to sign him because there was nobody else out there. I'll never forget Kolb's press conference where he was talking about taking the Bills to the Super Bowl. However................I was the first person on this board to point out Fitz' inability to get the ball downfield with enough accuracy to keep defense's honest. That take was met with even more outrage and denial than my recent McCoy takes. But that didn't mean I didn't see the value in what Fitz could bring. The guy was a competitor, he was durable and he could get hot and win games for you. All things considered he was inexplicably remarkably successful against NE, which I really liked. One of major crimes of this organization has been starting new coaching regimes without requisite talent to succeed and cutting Fitz was doing just that. Manuel's early success in the Marrone/Hackett no-huddle had me thinking they might come out of a couple bad QB decisions looking ok.......but at the very least they should have kept Fitz and let him compete for the job. It was a dumb move by a guy in Buddy Nix who was in over his head as a GM. I would much rather have Tyrod Taylor now though. Edited December 28, 2015 by #BADOL
DreamJayy Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Yes....absolutely. We released Fitz and signed Kevin Kolb to play while EJ developed and we all remember how that turned out.... Manuel was thrown in the lineup too early after 2 left feet slipped and fell, was injured and last year was replaced with Kyle Orton (both situations ruined his development and confidence). These problems could have been solved by giving Fitz an extra year or 2 in a new system, and if Manuel wasnt ready in 2014, Im sure Fitz with Watkins and Woods would have been better than Orton was.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) I just think the Rex thing is way more complicated In Rex final 2 years he could not get the help from his GM that was needed.....the whole thing was a tire fire (for instance it is pretty much known Rex asked for corner help to make his D work....he didnt get it) Exit Rex....in come new mgt......and coach.....AND NEW GROCERIES TO WORK WITH Now...everyone is upset with Rex here right not to...me included...but ALL aspects need to be looked at not just try to make a simple view of it. The HC/GM situation with the jets was TOXIC I know that's the "spin" Rex has on the situation. But there are a couple questions worth asking: 1) What kind of corner help did Rex want and did the Jets have the cap space to get it? there aren't that many Darrell Revis types in the league. Sometimes a strong coach needs to take what he has and make the most of it. Did Rex do that? There are many ways a GM/Coach pairing can become toxic. One is if the coach insists that, to succeed, he needs players that aren't there, or aren't available, and can't work with the players he has to best advantage. I'm not saying this is true of Rex, but it's worth asking. Didn't Belichek (the Devil) basically cut the entire NE 2ndary just before the season one year and somehow make it work? 2) Yes, the Jets signed a lot of 2ndary help this year, but has that been critical? Two of them are long in the tooth (Cro and Revis). How good is the Jets 2ndary this year? They are kind of "meh" in passing defense, aren't they? But very stout against the rush, improved from last year, and also much improved in sacks and turnovers? Is that the secondary, or a difference in how the same guys are being used? 3) Rex hadn't been to the playoffs with the Jets in 4 years. So if the problem was help at cornerback the last 2 years, what happened the previous 2 years? I think it's pretty simple. Bowles brought in a DC who simplified and streamlined the D to get the most out of his DL and LB and take pressure off his 2ndary. He brought in a creative OC who gets the most out of his QB. A few key pieces were added, and team discipline/game day management were improved. La voila. The Bills opened the checkbook for Rex, bringing in the OC he wanted, drafting high on CB and RG and bringing in quality FA at LG, RB TE, WR, QB, and all the defensive assistants he wanted. Team discipline and game day management went to hell and the D seems disorganized and confused. La voila. Edited December 28, 2015 by Hopeful
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 If you keep Fitzy, you don't draft EJ. And maybe you flub that draft anyway -- I don't see it that way. I think they weren't going to keep Fitz with the big roster bonus and salary that he was due, but I think if they offered him around the same level of guaranteed money and salary they offered Kolb and then Orton (similar or a bit more than what Fitz signed for in Tenn) they could have kept him, and drafted a QB.
TheFunPolice Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 The Jets have not yet clinched a playoff berth. And how exactly did he drive a stake into the heart of the evil empire? I'm glad they won, because New England losing is always great. But NE* is still going to win SB 50 and its possible that the Jets come in here and lose next week and miss the playoffs
Jkgobills Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Yes....absolutely. We released Fitz and signed Kevin Kolb to play while EJ developed and we all remember how that turned out.... Manuel was thrown in the lineup too early after 2 left feet slipped and fell, was injured and last year was replaced with Kyle Orton (both situations ruined his development and confidence). These problems could have been solved by giving Fitz an extra year or 2 in a new system, and if Manuel wasnt ready in 2014, Im sure Fitz with Watkins and Woods would have been better than Orton was. I couldn't agree more. Keeping Fitz would have meant that The Bills had organizational competence in the front office in how to handle the most important position on the field. Instead we were at one point treated to a season of 1. EJ 2. Jeff Tuel. 3. Thad Lewis. No significant NFL experience and no veteran among them. Fitz was a better QB than Kolb at that time, more durable, and a team leader. And yes, Fitzy's contract seemed expensive when compared to jobs that aren't NFL QB (like teacher, lawyer, Doctor, CEO of a company), but for a starting QB in the NFL it was still reasonable and a good value, Then The Bills were forced to bring Orton out of retirement and we had watch him play, because EJ was not up to the level of starting NFL QB. Not keeping Fitz, not properly managing the QB position through the draft (over drafting EJ out of desperation), and then not having a durable veteran available to help develop EJ, Tuel, Thad and now Tyrod was The Bills height of inept decision making. And this is a very tall mountain these past 18 years ! In a nation of 320+ million people, we produce 32 starting NFL QB's. Of those 32, 15 teams have a great to "good enough" player at that position. Fitz was and is borderline "good enough". The play at QB (with the exception of Tyrod this year) has been far from "good enough" for the Bills since they cut Fitz loose. The Bills would have been better off with him, but were too poorly run during the Dobahie/ Marv/ Nix years to have known to keep him.
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Probably. Even overpaid QBs rarely get cut. His cap number wasn't severely hamstringing us. It was a money move. They didn't want to keep paying him to be mediocre. Do i think he'd be starting for us today if we didnt cut him? no. He probably would have been cut a year later or something.
YoloinOhio Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 No. The revisionist history is amazing. He was brutal the last year he was here. Good for him for reviving his career - he found a good spot to do so and he seems like a nice guy. But he was not even close to being good after he got paid here. Even Houston is better without him and they are on their 4th QB this year.
Jkgobills Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 No. The revisionist history is amazing. He was brutal the last year he was here. Good for him for reviving his career - he found a good spot to do so and he seems like a nice guy. But he was not even close to being good after he got paid here. Even Houston is better without him and they are on their 4th QB this year. The question was would the Bills be better. And yes, Fitzy was average, to sometimes streaky good, to sometimes just awful. No revisionist here. However, given the QB nightmare up until Tyrod this season the Bills would have been better off keeping Fitz, while simultaneously trying to upgrade the QB position. Instead they made the position worse while trying to upgrade the position. Which the Bills finally did this year with Tyrod. Without a doubt I would rather have Tyrod going forward over Fitz. However, the Bills could have kept Fitz, been better off the past 2 seasons and had Fitz available when Tyrod got hurt this year. Fitz would be an upgrade over all of the Bills backups this year and may have been the difference in the games Tyrod missed due to injury.
YoloinOhio Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) The question was would the Bills be better. And yes, Fitzy was average, to sometimes streaky good, to sometimes just awful. No revisionist here. However, given the QB nightmare up until Tyrod this season the Bills would have been better off keeping Fitz, while simultaneously trying to upgrade the QB position. Instead they made the position worse while trying to upgrade the position. Which the Bills finally did this year with Tyrod. Without a doubt I would rather have Tyrod going forward over Fitz. However, the Bills could have kept Fitz, been better off the past 2 seasons and had Fitz available when Tyrod got hurt this year. Fitz would be an upgrade over all of the Bills backups this year and may have been the difference in the games Tyrod missed due to injury. that's nice in theory. The revisionist history is that there was a phone call made public by Nix that said they didn't want him. They also had to draft a QB because of how bad he was. He was making too much for a backup and if you start him again while you develop EJ or whatever you are looking at another losing season - probably, since that was all he ever had. Plus he would have been without Chan, and with Marrone. No one knows how much worse he would have been. It's all a hypothetical but if you go back to when the decision had to be made and then what transpired in reality afterward... I say no, they would not have been better off. Maybe 7-9 or 8-8 instead of 6-10 in 2013 at best? Maybe they don't get Sammy? It's way too pie in the sky so can't really say yes, for sure. Edited December 28, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 NO ! fitz was and still is better than EJ and Orton. fitz is not better than TT. might have been better off short term (2011 - 2014), but not long term (2015 - 2017). Fitz>Orton is debatable/borderline... Everything else is right on.
Jkgobills Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 that's nice in theory. The revisionist history is that there was a phone call made public by Nix that said they didn't want him. They also had to draft a QB because of how bad he was. He was making too much for a backup and if you start him again while you develop EJ or whatever you are looking at another losing season - probably, since that was all he ever had. Plus he would have been without Chan, and with Marrone. No one knows how much worse he would have been. It's all a hypothetical but if you go back to when the decision had to be made and then what transpired in reality afterward... I say no, they would not have been better off. Maybe 7-9 or 8-8 instead of 6-10 in 2013 at best? Maybe they don't get Sammy? It's way too pie in the sky so can't really say yes, for sure. My post on previous page is about organizational competence for the Bills. The Nix years were not high on the competence scale. There has not been a QB on this roster since Fitz was cut loose better than Fitz...until Tyrod. We can respectfully disagree, but my prior post had as much to do with the fact that a competent organization would have kept Fitz as he was relatively cheap, durable, and serviceable while the Bills kept looking for his successor. Keeping Fitz would have been a decision made by a competent front office (not one run by Buddy Nix). A competent front office then would mean the Bills are better off as a franchise now.
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Well, all the fans that jumped off the bridge wouldn't be around to see it one way or the other.
Max997 Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 Hopefully Fitz's performance today finally puts this discussion to bed. Fitz will more often than not turn the ball over in crunch time
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