dave mcbride Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I understand the sentiment that "you have to resign your own players". I really do. Except that it really isn't true. CJ Spiller, Jairus Byrd were both talented players who performed well for the Bills whose cost just exceeded their market value. Dareus had a very good season in the Jim Schwartz scheme and his market value probably shot up to near where the Bills resigned him (we did pay full price though). The problem is that in the Rex Ryan scheme, DT is a really low value position. Dareus can execute perfectly what he is asked to do, and his role just isn't worthy of being the highest paid player on the team. I am not sure what was the last championship team whose first or second highest paid player was a DT. It seems like Ryan and Whaley need to communicate better on what positions mean the most in the schemes on both sides of the ball are. DT isn't a low-value position his defense. Kris Jenkins was the lynchpin of their front 7 years back, and Sheldon Richardson was one of the most productive DTs in the league in that system. And Haloti Ngata was a dominator for Rex when he DC'd Baltimore's D from 2006-08.
BrooklynBills Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The Jets and Broncos would disagree. Both are equally as talented and have played lesser offenses. Cincy and NE are 1 and 2 on offense. Giants are 7. The highest rated offense the jets have faced is WSH who was 17th coming into yesterday. The highest rated offense the broncos have faced is KC at 12th, and they needed more than 24 points to beat them. Denver's D was nearly as good as ours last year statistically and the Jets added 3 new CBs, including one of the best in the NFL and the top defensive player in the draft.
JohnC Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I don't disagree...A Franchise QB is the key...But I do think it's MUCH easier said than done...And to that point I think Whaley has done OK based on the option (s) presented to him... The Bills were looking for a Franchise QB in the wrong Draft...Everyone knew it...They were a day late and a dollar short...And that's Buddy Nix fault...Not Whaley's...The margin of error is so paper thin... Of the current starting QB's in the league the Bills really only had a "chance" at these guys.. Draft Dalton Kaepernick Wilson *Carr *Bridgewater * - Would have required a trade up or down Trade Palmer Bradford Foles A. Smith UFA Hoyer McCown So...Obviously the big chance came in the 2nd Round of the 2011 Draft (Dalton) and most especially the 3rd round of the 2012 Draft where they could have got Wilson...Maybe they could have made a legit run at Carson Palmer when he became available...Though I doubt Palmer would have wanted to come to Buffalo...I think the argument can be made that...all things considered...the Bills are in a better position with TT if he continues to develop than any of the other trade/UFA options that have been available... So the moral of this story is...It's damn hard to find a Franchise QB nowadays...So Whaley tried to do what is easier...Build the rest of the team...What he did not plan for was the Ryan hire...And while I fully understand how difficult it is to stop good QB's in this league, it's even harder when you have a Defense that seemingly does not fully understand, or fit, the newly installed scheme...If you're not getting big 3rd down stops, especially at home, you're not going to beat most teams...That fact is only magnified when you don't have a Franchise QB... The Bills are built around a Defense that finished in the top 5 overall last year...They made the crazy assumption that Rex's scheme would actually improve that Defense...They never really considered the possibility that Rex's scheme was not a match for the current personnel, or that maybe it would take some time for the scheme to sink-in...This Defense is getting no-pressure on the QB, they are not making plays in the back field, and they are not turning the ball over...And IMHO that's why they are 3-3 instead of 5-1 right now...Well...That and the freaking penalties... The point I'm stressing is that having a strong defense will not overcome or compensate for major deficiency at the qb position. Last year our defense was elite Marrone took a very conservative offensive approach because he recognized how bad our OL was and how mediocre our qbing was. DM reaized very early on that EJ was not capable. Some of the conflict centered around EJ and how the HC was so dismissive of his ability to play. Marrone was right in his stance on EJ. Our record was 9-7. The team's upside, regardless of its dynamic defense, was limited because of the inadequate qb play. Especially compared to this year's new loquacious HC DM maximized the the team's record relative to its limitatiion on offense. Doug Whaley was bold in the Watkins deal. I believe that if Watkins played on a team with a good qb he would be ranked at nearly the top level. But what return are you going to get out of your receiver investment (a position dependent on the qb) when there is such a void at the qb position? Would making a deal for a Nick Foles type qb been a wiser move than dealing assets that could have been used to acquire a qb by trade or in the draft? I have never been a Rex fan. I didn't understand why there was such an appeal for him by the Pegula's or anyone else. He got fired and his replacement has stabilized the team that was in turmoil when he coached it. Other than be more personable than the former dour HC what was so attractive about him? There is no doubt that the scheme on defense has to be altered. But the core problem for this team is the same as it has been since the Kelly departure: a need for a good qb. You could adjust the scheme on defense that is more suitable to the talent and you can upgrade the OL and it still won't make a significant difference. It's about the qb! All other issues are secondary compared to the primary need. Maybe Tyrod can be good enough to make us respectable? Maybe not?
John from Riverside Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Are we really talking about firing people after starting 3-3? shhhh pitchforks are out keep your head down
bmur66 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 What were the Bills going to do? Make Cassel a 3rd stringer or make EJ the 1st round pick a 3rd stringer? I think not. That's why they cut Cassel. He was only brought back as trade bait to get their draft pick back which is exactly what they did. If EJ doesn't show progress this year I don't think Whaley will hesitate cut him if he doesn't have another year on his rookie contract. This notion that Whaley is conspiring to stack the deck for his guy is laughable. EJ is getting a fair chance and that is it.
TheFunPolice Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I wonder if Marrone quit over QB and Whaley was sort of forced to bring in other options because of Rexs stature and the fact the he reports to the Pegulas, not the GM
DrDawkinstein Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Do you think Terry is going to blow it up after one season? I would hope he's keen to avoid the Cleveland/Haslem model. The only benefit of the Pegulas firing either the HC or GM after this year (short of a 3-13 finish) would be that it would clearly tell us we have worse owners than the last one, and I can give up my season tickets. I will say, however, that Whaley (and maybe even the Pegulas) need to sit down with Rex and Dennis Thurman and have a very frank discussion about our defense and the current scheme. Edited October 19, 2015 by DrDareustein
Fadingpain Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) The question one has to ask is what do you do with the situation you are in. In the NFL of today successful teams are not built around their defense and the running game. Success is predicated on the caliber of your qb. You can have a flawed team from a defensive standpoint, OL standpoint and even an ineffective running game. As long as you have a very good qb (not necessarily elite---very few available) you can still compete. The Bills simply don't have the caliber of qb that will allow them to get over the playoff hump. EJ is what he is. He is a nothing more than a backup, and maybe something less. An inaccurate qb is a deficiency that can't be overcome. Is TT the answer? He has moments where he is impressive and then there are moments where you come to terms that at best he is a resourceful backup qb. I like Whaley. In general he has done a good job. But the foundation of the team he has built.is simply outdated. And his ability to evaluate qbs has to be questioned. The flaws in EJ's game were noted by many scouts and have been realized now that he is in the pro ranks. The bottom line is that until the qb position is settled the story line is going to be the same. Whaley was bold in his move up to draft Watkins---he is going to have to be as bold in pursuit of a qb. Until that is done nothing materially changes. I (and a lot of other people!) mentioned these points in the offseason and the kool aid krowd that predominates this forum effectively said "don't worry about it, we will win in other ways." I would love to see this team go full tank when the time is right to secure the right QB. Without one, it is really hard to win in this league and the only way you get the right QB is to draft very highly (like first) in a year when the right QB is available. Edited October 19, 2015 by Fadingpain
KOKBILLS Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The point I'm stressing is that having a strong defense will not overcome or compensate for major deficiency at the qb position. Last year our defense was elite Marrone took a very conservative offensive approach because he recognized how bad our OL was and how mediocre our qbing was. DM reaized very early on that EJ was not capable. Some of the conflict centered around EJ and how the HC was so dismissive of his ability to play. Marrone was right in his stance on EJ. Our record was 9-7. The team's upside, regardless of its dynamic defense, was limited because of the inadequate qb play. Especially compared to this year's new loquacious HC DM maximized the the team's record relative to its limitatiion on offense. Doug Whaley was bold in the Watkins deal. I believe that if Watkins played on a team with a good qb he would be ranked at nearly the top level. But what return are you going to get out of your receiver investment (a position dependent on the qb) when there is such a void at the qb position? Would making a deal for a Nick Foles type qb been a wiser move than dealing assets that could have been used to acquire a qb by trade or in the draft? I have never been a Rex fan. I didn't understand why there was such an appeal for him by the Pegula's or anyone else. He got fired and his replacement has stabilized the team that was in turmoil when he coached it. Other than be more personable than the former dour HC what was so attractive about him? There is no doubt that the scheme on defense has to be altered. But the core problem for this team is the same as it has been since the Kelly departure: a need for a good qb. You could adjust the scheme on defense that is more suitable to the talent and you can upgrade the OL and it still won't make a significant difference. It's about the qb! All other issues are secondary compared to the primary need. Maybe Tyrod can be good enough to make us respectable? Maybe not? I think 99.9% of Bills fans agree with what you're trying to say...And it's been said a million and a half times here, on WGR...everywhere...Even Whaley admitted they are in QB purgatory...Maybe he could have done more...But the fact remains it's almost as effective to be blindly lucky looking for a Franchise QB (see Tom Brady) in the NFL as it is to be diligent...It's easier said than done...
KOKBILLS Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I (and a lot of other people!) mentioned these points in the offseason and the kool aid krowd that predominates this forum effectively said "don't worry about it, we will win in other ways." I would love to see this team go full tank when the time is right to secure the right QB. Without one, it is really hard to win in this league and the only way you get the right QB is to draft very highly (like first) in a year when the right QB is available. Well... Pretty sure Jones (OSU) and Goff (Cal) are on pace to go top 5 this year...Even if they are not necessarily top 5 prospects...They are QB's after all...and both have decent upside... Cook (MSU) should also be a 1st round pick... So why wait?... These injuries keep piling up and the tank will come like it or not...
Billsrhody Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Let the season play out and we will certainly see....But I think the Jets and Broncos defense will remain strong all year no matter who they play and will be good enough to keep them in every game. The same can't be said about our defense right now. We'll find out about the Jets next week when we they play the Pats.
Best Player Available Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Our OL is average at best. Do you know what would dramatically improve the performance of the OL with the same players? Good qb play. In yesterday's game EJ had more than adequate time to get the ball off. The problem is he is not adept at reading defenses and his accuracy level is atrocious. Even when he completes passes his ball placement is horrible. We both agree that Whaley not only misjudged Manuel as a prospect but that he is also too invested in him as a pro. My point in the prior post is that with an upgrade at the level of qbing the deficiencies associated with the rest of the offensive unit would be limited. Watkins has been plagued with injuries. But the point he was making in his complaints regarding not being targeted is valid. The team paid a steep price to acquire him yet he is underutilized. The problem isn't not being targeted so much as the problem is that we don't have the talent level at qb that is capable of getting him the ball. If you watched the Cincinatti game Dalton threw the ball to covered receivers who made big plays. We don't have that type of qb who can convert those types of tight passes. Again, my point is that having a better qb overcomes existing deficiencies. Until the qb issue is resolved these same types of conversation will continue. It is my belief that even with a poorly constructed roster you can field a serious team if the qb position is properly addressed. That is not to say that there aren't other issues regarding coaching and the defense but having good qb play takes a lot of steam out of the other problem areas. I have never been a Rex Ryan fan. Compare the Rex Ryan Jets over the past two years with the current Tod Bowles regime. The difference in team maturity and discipline is starkly evident under each HC. But that is another discussion. What I would love to know is how much Whaley was involved with his selection or was this an owner being infatuated with a glib talking former HC who was just fired from his prior job??? Wasn't the great Buddy Nix responsible the Manuel pick? Whaley was not GM then sure he had input. But it's doubtful anyone but the Bills graded Manuel a #16 first round pick. I think the Whaley/ Manuel connection is a tad overblown without any actual OBD comments to prove otherwise. Edited October 19, 2015 by Best Player Available
BrooklynBills Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The point I'm stressing is that having a strong defense will not overcome or compensate for major deficiency at the qb position. Last year our defense was elite Marrone took a very conservative offensive approach because he recognized how bad our OL was and how mediocre our qbing was. DM reaized very early on that EJ was not capable. Some of the conflict centered around EJ and how the HC was so dismissive of his ability to play. Marrone was right in his stance on EJ. Our record was 9-7. The team's upside, regardless of its dynamic defense, was limited because of the inadequate qb play. Especially compared to this year's new loquacious HC DM maximized the the team's record relative to its limitatiion on offense. Doug Whaley was bold in the Watkins deal. I believe that if Watkins played on a team with a good qb he would be ranked at nearly the top level. But what return are you going to get out of your receiver investment (a position dependent on the qb) when there is such a void at the qb position? Would making a deal for a Nick Foles type qb been a wiser move than dealing assets that could have been used to acquire a qb by trade or in the draft? I have never been a Rex fan. I didn't understand why there was such an appeal for him by the Pegula's or anyone else. He got fired and his replacement has stabilized the team that was in turmoil when he coached it. Other than be more personable than the former dour HC what was so attractive about him? There is no doubt that the scheme on defense has to be altered. But the core problem for this team is the same as it has been since the Kelly departure: a need for a good qb. You could adjust the scheme on defense that is more suitable to the talent and you can upgrade the OL and it still won't make a significant difference. It's about the qb! All other issues are secondary compared to the primary need. Maybe Tyrod can be good enough to make us respectable? Maybe not? Jets haven't played anyone great on offense, have 3 new starting CBs, and added arguably the best defensive player in the draft.
ctk232 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) The point I'm stressing is that having a strong defense will not overcome or compensate for major deficiency at the qb position. Last year our defense was elite Marrone took a very conservative offensive approach because he recognized how bad our OL was and how mediocre our qbing was. DM reaized very early on that EJ was not capable. Some of the conflict centered around EJ and how the HC was so dismissive of his ability to play. Marrone was right in his stance on EJ. Our record was 9-7. The team's upside, regardless of its dynamic defense, was limited because of the inadequate qb play. Especially compared to this year's new loquacious HC DM maximized the the team's record relative to its limitatiion on offense. Doug Whaley was bold in the Watkins deal. I believe that if Watkins played on a team with a good qb he would be ranked at nearly the top level. But what return are you going to get out of your receiver investment (a position dependent on the qb) when there is such a void at the qb position? Would making a deal for a Nick Foles type qb been a wiser move than dealing assets that could have been used to acquire a qb by trade or in the draft? I have never been a Rex fan. I didn't understand why there was such an appeal for him by the Pegula's or anyone else. He got fired and his replacement has stabilized the team that was in turmoil when he coached it. Other than be more personable than the former dour HC what was so attractive about him? There is no doubt that the scheme on defense has to be altered. But the core problem for this team is the same as it has been since the Kelly departure: a need for a good qb. You could adjust the scheme on defense that is more suitable to the talent and you can upgrade the OL and it still won't make a significant difference. It's about the qb! All other issues are secondary compared to the primary need. Maybe Tyrod can be good enough to make us respectable? Maybe not? I agree with you to the degree that defense can't play both sides of the ball. This being said, I feel that in a couple games so far this season. Stronger defensive performances would have yielded different results. Simply put, the scheme currently implemented does not fit our personnel. Against the Bengals, one play, Dalton had 10+ seconds to throw the ball and completed to Green after Darby tracked him over 30 yards. We are not getting pressure on the QB. Plain and simple. Especially for this line and defense which barely blitzed last year and managed the amount of sacks it did. Further, Darby and Gilmore are solid corners, too bad almost every offense in the NFL uses more than 2 receiving targets on passing plays. Our secondary is solid, no doubt, but gives up huge yardage on crucial downs and is certainly not without it's holes. Even when healthy. Before I rant too much and this becomes more emotional than perceptive - there's a tremendous difference in our defensive performance this year and it's not all on the players or injuries. We look fragmented, uncomfortable, and simply out of position on assignments. We haven't adapted the scheme to our players and it shows, every game. And it's sad that 6 weeks into the season, everyone sees it and nothing has been done about it. It really is just unfortunate to watch such a talented group limited by schematics and play calling. We paid them the money, let them play. Edited October 19, 2015 by ctk232
simpleman Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) It is not a disconnect, it is Ryan. He is responsible for discipline, and this team keeps self destructing due to lack of discipline. Schwartz had this D working like a champ. Pettine could not get the results that Schwartz did running a Ryan like defense. Ryan adds to that weakness with an overgrown ego that does not have the facts to back it up. This team has the talent to make the playoffs, but not the coaching. We should try to bring back Schwartz ASAP as ""D" coordinator if at all possible. We are already paying him for the job, lol. Get rid of Crossman, like I have been saying for two years. Last year we stacked the roster with players for special teams to try and make him look good, he is horrible. And stacking the roster helped disguise that fact last year at the expense of other positions. Get an offensive minded HC , or maybe even promote Roman for the rest of the year if we can get back Schwartz at "D". With better coaches at "D", special teams, and HC we still might be able to salvage this season. This team has slid backward in on the field performance, while vastly improving in the talent level of the players on the team. It is not the lack of player talent that is holding back this team, it is sorry coaching. Edited October 19, 2015 by simpleman
JohnC Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Before I rant too much and this becomes more emotional than perceptive - there's a tremendous difference in our defensive performance this year and it's not all on the players or injuries. We look fragmented, uncomfortable, and simply out of position on assignments. We haven't adapted the scheme to our players and it shows, every game. And it's sad that 6 weeks into the season, everyone sees it and nothing has been done about it. It really is just unfortunate to watch such a talented group limited by schematics and play calling. We paid them the money, let them play. I absolutely agree with your comments regarding the defense. Whose fault is that? The organization selected a HC whose specialty is defense. We went from an elite hard charging DL to a gimmicky defense that has befuddled itself. That's on the coaching staff. The owners selected a HC who was fired and whose team was in a state of turmoil when he left. The Jets went out and hired a HC who wasn't very charismatic but was very substative. The Jets have found their footing while the Bills, especially the defense, are a very fractured unit. Under the prior DC Mario Williams was one of the best rushing DEs in the league. Under the current coaching staff he is a player who is lost and appears to be disinterested. The problem with Rex is that he is trying to prove how smart and innovative he is. In my humble opinion he outsmarted himself and set this franchise back. He took an asset and damaged it. He was given a five year contract. An inconsequential franchise done in by its own peculiar decisions. Where is the common sense??? I think 99.9% of Bills fans agree with what you're trying to say...And it's been said a million and a half times here, on WGR...everywhere...Even Whaley admitted they are in QB purgatory...Maybe he could have done more...But the fact remains it's almost as effective to be blindly lucky looking for a Franchise QB (see Tom Brady) in the NFL as it is to be diligent...It's easier said than done... There are things you can control and there are things you can't. We don't have a good qb situation. Everyone is aware of that. But we did have a dominant defense last year under a different DC and HC. A new regime comes in and what was the heart and soul of this team has been castrated. Dramatically changing the scheme of one of the best defenses in the league is a disaster. Sometimes when you try to outsmart everyone else you end up outsmarting yourself.
Saxum Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Are we really talking about firing people after starting 3-3? Some people talk about firing people after one loss or not big enough win and you are surprised they are talking about firing now? Some fans are worse than short traders.
DanInUticaTampa Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 This has got to be frustrating for DW. While he has made some mistakes, overall there's enough talent on this team that we ought to have a winning record. Roman has been doing the work with the O that he was paid to do. But on D, Whaley handed Rex the keys to a Cadillac that Rex transformed into a Yugo. Maybe he'll get this turned around - I hope so - but so far Rex's work here has been hugely disappointing. Rex will get it turned around eventually. But my concern would be that it happens too late in the season and Rex loses the locker room, creating a long term mess.
yungmack Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Are we really talking about firing people after starting 3-3? When would you fire people? After 3-13? The caliber of QB isn't the reason they will miss the playoffs this year. It will be the significant drop off of defensive play and coaching from 2014 that wasn't the least bit expected. Again, thanks Rex. Exactly correct. None of the rational fans were expecting league-leading offensive action. We could live with so-so offensive play of the promised "ground and pound" sort that avoided horrible mistakes and kept us in the game. What we weren't expecting was that one of the best defenses in the game, and one of the best special teams, would underachieve so horribly. That's the crux of the disgust with Rex.
Nihilarian Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 I absolutely agree with your comments regarding the defense. Whose fault is that? The organization selected a HC whose specialty is defense. We went from an elite hard charging DL to a gimmicky defense that has befuddled itself. That's on the coaching staff. The owners selected a HC who was fired and whose team was in a state of turmoil when he left. The Jets went out and hired a HC who wasn't very charismatic but was very substative. The Jets have found their footing while the Bills, especially the defense, are a very fractured unit. Under the prior DC Mario Williams was one of the best rushing DEs in the league. Under the current coaching staff he is a player who is lost and appears to be disinterested. The problem with Rex is that he is trying to prove how smart and innovative he is. In my humble opinion he outsmarted himself and set this franchise back. He took an asset and damaged it. He was given a five year contract. An inconsequential franchise done in by its own peculiar decisions. Where is the common sense??? There are things you can control and there are things you can't. We don't have a good qb situation. Everyone is aware of that. But we did have a dominant defense last year under a different DC and HC. A new regime comes in and what was the heart and soul of this team has been castrated. Dramatically changing the scheme of one of the best defenses in the league is a disaster. Sometimes when you try to outsmart everyone else you end up outsmarting yourself. Some excellent points here considering the state of the current defense. Not to mention all the penalties this team has accrued this season so far in every aspect of the team is undisciplined. Offense, defense, and special teams. The QB, and injuries aside this years team would be so much better with last years defense, and fewer penalties. That's all on the coaching!! The Pegula's need to kick some arse before the season is lost! (at the bye) If this same defensive scheme continues along with the penalties then the owners need to look for a better head coach. Perhaps offer Schwartz the HC job. JMO
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