The Whaley / Ryan / Dareus disconnect

[PlayoffsPlease]

I understand the sentiment that "you have to resign your own players". I really do. Except that it really isn't true. CJ Spiller, Jairus Byrd were both talented players who performed well for the Bills whose cost just exceeded their market value.

 

Dareus had a very good season in the Jim Schwartz scheme and his market value probably shot up to near where the Bills resigned him (we did pay full price though).

 

The problem is that in the Rex Ryan scheme, DT is a really low value position. Dareus can execute perfectly what he is asked to do, and his role just isn't worthy of being the highest paid player on the team.

 

I am not sure what was the last championship team whose first or second highest paid player was a DT.

 

It seems like Ryan and Whaley need to communicate better on what positions mean the most in the schemes on both sides of the ball are.

[BillsVet]

Whaley is in a tough spot because he didn't hire the 2 HC's during his tenure and whatever players he's acquired aren't necessarily going to play under the latest coaching staff.

 

The owner is not doing them any favors either considering that Whaley does not have the job security Rex enjoys. The idea it's as simple as Whaley having control over the 53 and Rex playing whom he wants on game-day is wrought with major issues.

 

This was evidenced by the handling of the QB situation. Whaley was high on Manuel whereas it appears Rex and the staff were not. And so Whaley traded the guy in the way of Manuel playing.

 

But the strategy building this roster has been something based on the 1970s because teams don't win with great defense and a strong run game. For those who think Seattle does this, well, they have Russell Wilson which allows them to throw when they have to. Buffalo doesn't have that capability and therefore gets into trouble when that situation presents itself.

[BrooklynBills]

I am not sure what was the last championship team whose first or second highest paid player was a DT.

 

Last year.

 

New England.

 

Vince Wilfork.

Whaley is in a tough spot because he didn't hire the 2 HC's during his tenure and whatever players he's acquired aren't necessarily going to play under the latest coaching staff.

 

The owner is not doing them any favors either considering that Whaley does not have the job security Rex enjoys. The idea it's as simple as Whaley having control over the 53 and Rex playing whom he wants on game-day is wrought with major issues.

 

This was evidenced by the handling of the QB situation. Whaley was high on Manuel whereas it appears Rex and the staff were not. And so Whaley traded the guy in the way of Manuel playing.

 

But the strategy building this roster has been something based on the 1970s because teams don't win with great defense and a strong run game. For those who think Seattle does this, well, they have Russell Wilson which allows them to throw when they have to. Buffalo doesn't have that capability and therefore gets into trouble when that situation presents itself.

Ryan is here to install a defensive system they can implement over a long period of time in which they can plug and play new players over time as focusing so much on talent acquisition on every level of the defense and neglecting acquiring offensive talent is a recipe for disaster.

[PlayoffsPlease]

Last year.

 

New England.

 

Vince Wilfork.

 

Ryan is here to install a defensive system they can implement over a long period of time in which they can plug and play new players over time as focusing so much on talent acquisition on every level of the defense and neglecting acquiring offensive talent is a recipe for disaster.

Revis and Brady made more in 2014. So no.

[peterpan]

Yep. Ryan was a horrible fit for our roster. So sad.

 

We also aren't going to be a power running team when your OL sucks. Maybe Whaley and Rex haven't figured that out yet?? Why do we trade up for guys like Watkins and pursue guys like Harvin and clay when our OL still blows???

 

Like shiney new rims on a rusty 1982 camero. Woof.

[BrooklynBills]

Revis and Brady made more in 2014. So no.

 

Youre right. Forgot he restructured.

[TheFunPolice]

I'm starting to think that Rex needs top-notch CBs, a top notch MLB and solid safeties to run his defense, with DL a secondary issue

[JohnC]

Whaley is in a tough spot because he didn't hire the 2 HC's during his tenure and whatever players he's acquired aren't necessarily going to play under the latest coaching staff.

 

The owner is not doing them any favors either considering that Whaley does not have the job security Rex enjoys. The idea it's as simple as Whaley having control over the 53 and Rex playing whom he wants on game-day is wrought with major issues.

 

This was evidenced by the handling of the QB situation. Whaley was high on Manuel whereas it appears Rex and the staff were not. And so Whaley traded the guy in the way of Manuel playing.

 

But the strategy building this roster has been something based on the 1970s because teams don't win with great defense and a strong run game. For those who think Seattle does this, well, they have Russell Wilson which allows them to throw when they have to. Buffalo doesn't have that capability and therefore gets into trouble when that situation presents itself.

The question one has to ask is what do you do with the situation you are in. In the NFL of today successful teams are not built around their defense and the running game. Success is predicated on the caliber of your qb. You can have a flawed team from a defensive standpoint, OL standpoint and even an ineffective running game. As long as you have a very good qb (not necessarily elite---very few available) you can still compete.

 

The Bills simply don't have the caliber of qb that will allow them to get over the playoff hump. EJ is what he is. He is a nothing more than a backup, and maybe something less. An inaccurate qb is a deficiency that can't be overcome. Is TT the answer? He has moments where he is impressive and then there are moments where you come to terms that at best he is a resourceful backup qb.

 

I like Whaley. In general he has done a good job. But the foundation of the team he has built.is simply outdated. And his ability to evaluate qbs has to be questioned. The flaws in EJ's game were noted by many scouts and have been realized now that he is in the pro ranks.

 

The bottom line is that until the qb position is settled the story line is going to be the same. Whaley was bold in his move up to draft Watkins---he is going to have to be as bold in pursuit of a qb. Until that is done nothing materially changes.

[BillsVet]

The question one has to ask is what do you do with the situation you are in. In the NFL of today successful teams are not built around their defense and the running game. Success is predicated on the caliber of your qb. You can have a flawed team from a defensive standpoint, OL standpoint and even an ineffective running game. As long as you have a very good qb (not necessarily elite---very few available) you can still compete.

 

The Bills simply don't have the caliber of qb that will allow them to get over the playoff hump. EJ is what he is. He is a nothing more than a backup, and maybe something less. An inaccurate qb is a deficiency that can't be overcome. Is TT the answer? He has moments where he is impressive and then there are moments where you come to terms that at best he is a resourceful backup qb.

 

I like Whaley. In general he has done a good job. But the foundation of the team he has built.is simply outdated. And his ability to evaluate qbs has to be questioned. The flaws in EJ's game were noted by many scouts and have been realized now that he is in the pro ranks.

 

The bottom line is that until the qb position is settled the story line is going to be the same. Whaley was bold in his move up to draft Watkins---he is going to have to be as bold in pursuit of a qb. Until that is done nothing materially changes.

 

I'm not going to totally disagree with this post, although with Whaley, I don't see what he's trying to do aside from avoid the media. He's more adept at drafting defensive players because on offense he's been poor. There isn't much skill giving up draft picks to move from 9 to 4 to take the best WR. Aside from Robert Woods, what decent offensive starters has he selected from 2013-15? Most of the offensive group was acquired via free agency or trade.

 

Where I disagree is how Whaley could do a good job and have the roster foundation outdated. His predecessor had no plan aside from get a better player here, get a faster or stronger guy there. So I guess Whaley is better there.

 

Still, he doubled down on Manuel and that decision is significantly damaging his career. Because after yesterday, we're another step closer to declaring Manuel a bust. And the Bills are trying to cover up the one position that cannot be.

[Yoli]

Yep. Ryan was a horrible fit for our roster. So sad.

 

We also aren't going to be a power running team when your OL sucks. Maybe Whaley and Rex haven't figured that out yet?? Why do we trade up for guys like Watkins and pursue guys like Harvin and clay when our OL still blows???

 

Like shiney new rims on a rusty 1982 camero. Woof.

Yes -exactly. Add to that the poor man's Russel Wilson at qb. TT has all the talent and heart, except he is too small to withstand an NFL pounding and as a result, will never last. That is the reason he was a 6th round draft pick and why he will be on IR before the season is out. He reminds me of Steve Tasker when Tasker played wideout toward the end of his career. Tasker had abiltiy and could make plays, but he was injured all the time because he was too small to play wideout (I am not referring to his special teams play). Absolutely the only thing Whaley has been right about is that we are in purgatory -- even if they should get rid of Rex after this year, he has a five-year contract and a huge salary -- I can't see even the rich as Croesus Pegulas taking that kind of financial hit. The reality is that we have entered yet another 5 year tear down/rebuild with mediocre parts/fail/tear down/rebuild cycle. Whaley has made critical blunders with EJ, the Watkins trade (you make a poor quaterback great by mortgaging the future for a wideout the quaterback will never be able to utilize well?), a huge investment in a d-line that is being mis-used, etc. How long before all the sketchy characters on this roster revert for form?

[hondo in seattle]

 

 

The caliber of QB isn't the reason they will miss the playoffs this year.

 

It will be the significant drop off of defensive play and coaching from 2014 that wasn't the least bit expected.

 

Again, thanks Rex.

 

This has got to be frustrating for DW. While he has made some mistakes, overall there's enough talent on this team that we ought to have a winning record.

 

Roman has been doing the work with the O that he was paid to do. But on D, Whaley handed Rex the keys to a Cadillac that Rex transformed into a Yugo.

 

Maybe he'll get this turned around - I hope so - but so far Rex's work here has been hugely disappointing.

[stony]

 

Completely agree.

 

Rex needs to turn it around fast. I don't see it happening and if Pegula fires Whaley and retains Rex after a 7-9/8-8 season I'll be pissed because I'll know he fired the wrong guy and in all likelihood next season will be another wash.

 

So hard to watch this team year after year.

Are we really talking about firing people after starting 3-3?

[RyanC883]

 

Completely agree.

 

Rex needs to turn it around fast. I don't see it happening and if Pegula fires Whaley and retains Rex after a 7-9/8-8 season I'll be pissed because I'll know he fired the wrong guy and in all likelihood next season will be another wash.

 

So hard to watch this team year after year.

 

If Pegula's fire Whaley instead of Rex they will be the laughingstock of the league, seriously. Whaley will be hired by another team in about 10 seconds. I'd can Rex if anyone, bring in Schwartz to run the D, and promote Roman to HC and let him bring in whatever OC he thinks fits. Scoring 21 points against a great D with your only one of your great starters (McCoy) playing the entire game is impressive. Roman had a great game plan, not sure why Rex or Thurman decided to play prevent all game.

[JohnC]

 

I'm not going to totally disagree with this post, although with Whaley, I don't see what he's trying to do aside from avoid the media. He's more adept at drafting defensive players because on offense he's been poor. There isn't much skill giving up draft picks to move from 9 to 4 to take the best WR. Aside from Robert Woods, what decent offensive starters has he selected from 2013-15? Most of the offensive group was acquired via free agency or trade.

 

Where I disagree is how Whaley could do a good job and have the roster foundation outdated. His predecessor had no plan aside from get a better player here, get a faster or stronger guy there. So I guess Whaley is better there.

 

Still, he doubled down on Manuel and that decision is significantly damaging his career. Because after yesterday, we're another step closer to declaring Manuel a bust. And the Bills are trying to cover up the one position that cannot be.

Our OL is average at best. Do you know what would dramatically improve the performance of the OL with the same players? Good qb play. In yesterday's game EJ had more than adequate time to get the ball off. The problem is he is not adept at reading defenses and his accuracy level is atrocious. Even when he completes passes his ball placement is horrible.

 

We both agree that Whaley not only misjudged Manuel as a prospect but that he is also too invested in him as a pro. My point in the prior post is that with an upgrade at the level of qbing the deficiencies associated with the rest of the offensive unit would be limited. Watkins has been plagued with injuries. But the point he was making in his complaints regarding not being targeted is valid. The team paid a steep price to acquire him yet he is underutilized. The problem isn't not being targeted so much as the problem is that we don't have the talent level at qb that is capable of getting him the ball.

 

If you watched the Cincinatti game Dalton threw the ball to covered receivers who made big plays. We don't have that type of qb who can convert those types of tight passes. Again, my point is that having a better qb overcomes existing deficiencies.

 

Until the qb issue is resolved these same types of conversation will continue. It is my belief that even with a poorly constructed roster you can field a serious team if the qb position is properly addressed. That is not to say that there aren't other issues regarding coaching and the defense but having good qb play takes a lot of steam out of the other problem areas.

 

I have never been a Rex Ryan fan. Compare the Rex Ryan Jets over the past two years with the current Tod Bowles regime. The difference in team maturity and discipline is starkly evident under each HC. But that is another discussion. What I would love to know is how much Whaley was involved with his selection or was this an owner being infatuated with a glib talking former HC who was just fired from his prior job???

[KOKBILLS]

The question one has to ask is what do you do with the situation you are in. In the NFL of today successful teams are not built around their defense and the running game. Success is predicated on the caliber of your qb. You can have a flawed team from a defensive standpoint, OL standpoint and even an ineffective running game. As long as you have a very good qb (not necessarily elite---very few available) you can still compete.

 

The Bills simply don't have the caliber of qb that will allow them to get over the playoff hump. EJ is what he is. He is a nothing more than a backup, and maybe something less. An inaccurate qb is a deficiency that can't be overcome. Is TT the answer? He has moments where he is impressive and then there are moments where you come to terms that at best he is a resourceful backup qb.

 

I like Whaley. In general he has done a good job. But the foundation of the team he has built.is simply outdated. And his ability to evaluate qbs has to be questioned. The flaws in EJ's game were noted by many scouts and have been realized now that he is in the pro ranks.

 

The bottom line is that until the qb position is settled the story line is going to be the same. Whaley was bold in his move up to draft Watkins---he is going to have to be as bold in pursuit of a qb. Until that is done nothing materially changes.

 

I don't disagree...A Franchise QB is the key...But I do think it's MUCH easier said than done...And to that point I think Whaley has done OK based on the option (s) presented to him...

 

The Bills were looking for a Franchise QB in the wrong Draft...Everyone knew it...They were a day late and a dollar short...And that's Buddy Nix fault...Not Whaley's...The margin of error is so paper thin...

 

Of the current starting QB's in the league the Bills really only had a "chance" at these guys..

 

 

Draft

 

Dalton

Kaepernick

Wilson

*Carr

*Bridgewater

 

* - Would have required a trade up or down

 

Trade

 

Palmer

Bradford

Foles

A. Smith

 

UFA

 

Hoyer

McCown

 

So...Obviously the big chance came in the 2nd Round of the 2011 Draft (Dalton) and most especially the 3rd round of the 2012 Draft where they could have got Wilson...Maybe they could have made a legit run at Carson Palmer when he became available...Though I doubt Palmer would have wanted to come to Buffalo...I think the argument can be made that...all things considered...the Bills are in a better position with TT if he continues to develop than any of the other trade/UFA options that have been available...

 

So the moral of this story is...It's damn hard to find a Franchise QB nowadays...So Whaley tried to do what is easier...Build the rest of the team...What he did not plan for was the Ryan hire...And while I fully understand how difficult it is to stop good QB's in this league, it's even harder when you have a Defense that seemingly does not fully understand, or fit, the newly installed scheme...If you're not getting big 3rd down stops, especially at home, you're not going to beat most teams...That fact is only magnified when you don't have a Franchise QB...

 

The Bills are built around a Defense that finished in the top 5 overall last year...They made the crazy assumption that Rex's scheme would actually improve that Defense...They never really considered the possibility that Rex's scheme was not a match for the current personnel, or that maybe it would take some time for the scheme to sink-in...This Defense is getting no-pressure on the QB, they are not making plays in the back field, and they are not turning the ball over...And IMHO that's why they are 3-3 instead of 5-1 right now...Well...That and the freaking penalties...

[Rpar82]

The question one has to ask is what do you do with the situation you are in. In the NFL of today successful teams are not built around their defense and the running game. Success is predicated on the caliber of your qb. You can have a flawed team from a defensive standpoint, OL standpoint and even an ineffective running game. As long as you have a very good qb (not necessarily elite---very few available) you can still compete.

 

The Bills simply don't have the caliber of qb that will allow them to get over the playoff hump. EJ is what he is. He is a nothing more than a backup, and maybe something less. An inaccurate qb is a deficiency that can't be overcome. Is TT the answer? He has moments where he is impressive and then there are moments where you come to terms that at best he is a resourceful backup qb.

 

I like Whaley. In general he has done a good job. But the foundation of the team he has built.is simply outdated. And his ability to evaluate qbs has to be questioned. The flaws in EJ's game were noted by many scouts and have been realized now that he is in the pro ranks.

 

The bottom line is that until the qb position is settled the story line is going to be the same. Whaley was bold in his move up to draft Watkins---he is going to have to be as bold in pursuit of a qb. Until that is done nothing materially changes.

You're argument about needing a accurate quarterback is a valid and fair point. However, suggesting that the "foundation" of this team is outdated is absurd. Our offence when healthy is stacked with playmayers at RB, WR and Te.

 

Our defence has improved personnel wise, with the drafting of Darby and Graham playing safety. The foundation of the defence is better than last year IMO.

 

Whaley has done a hell of a job in assembling a roster any coaching staff would salivate over. Rex could barely hide his boner under the table at his press conference. The question what to do with the situation we are in needs to be answered by Rex Ryan. Coaching is our fundamental problem again this year. The "foundation" is there the execution is not. Hopefully the bye week gives Rex and the coaching staff some time to figure it out.

[stony]

 

Read my post.

 

I said if they finish 7-9/8-8 as they are on pace to do.

 

Do you think Terry is going to blow it up after one season? I would hope he's keen to avoid the Cleveland/Haslem model.

[BuffaloBillsForever]

I understand the sentiment that "you have to resign your own players". I really do. Except that it really isn't true. CJ Spiller, Jairus Byrd were both talented players who performed well for the Bills whose cost just exceeded their market value.

 

Dareus had a very good season in the Jim Schwartz scheme and his market value probably shot up to near where the Bills resigned him (we did pay full price though).

 

The problem is that in the Rex Ryan scheme, DT is a really low value position. Dareus can execute perfectly what he is asked to do, and his role just isn't worthy of being the highest paid player on the team.

 

I am not sure what was the last championship team whose first or second highest paid player was a DT.

 

It seems like Ryan and Whaley need to communicate better on what positions mean the most in the schemes on both sides of the ball are.

 

The problem isn't Rex IMO. This is the result of a poorly constructed/flawed roster.

[BrooklynBills]

 

This has got to be frustrating for DW. While he has made some mistakes, overall there's enough talent on this team that we ought to have a winning record.

 

Roman has been doing the work with the O that he was paid to do. But on D, Whaley handed Rex the keys to a Cadillac that Rex transformed into a Yugo.

 

Maybe he'll get this turned around - I hope so - but so far Rex's work here has been hugely disappointing.

Pats crushed us last year on defense. And the bengals put up nearly 500 yards on us 2 years ago.

 

Defense around the league is down historically. Seahawks were #1 in Defensive DVOA last year(3rd year in a row) and yet they wouldn't have ranked in the top 40 historically. The Bills had the best pass defense DVOA last year but historically they would not have ranked in the top 60.

 

It's not as if Rex has taken over 85 Bears, 2000 Ravens, or even the 2013 Seahawks, and made them average. They were not some world beating wrecking crew last year so expecting them to be dominant was wrong. Sacks are absolutely down and it would be nice to see them get more pressure but let's not overstate how good they were last year for the sake of burying them now.

[LabattBlue]

Square peg...round hole. Rex needs to figure out a way to maximize the skills of the players handed to him. If he refuses to do that, than either Whaley or Rex should go. Your GM and HC need to be working in harmony.