Do we know which coaches wanted Cassel?

[Doc]

I dont know who wanted who but I reckon if Matt lights it up in Dallas this week and EJ struggles (AND PLEASE...I'M NOT PREDICTING THIS) It'll be a painful week listening to the media go after Whaley et al.

 

I think Cassel has a good shot at not losing this week.

[JohnC]

I dont know who wanted who but I reckon if Matt lights it up in Dallas this week and EJ struggles (AND PLEASE...I'M NOT PREDICTING THIS) It'll be a painful week listening to the media go after Whaley et al.

Cassel is Cassel whose limitations are well known by everyone, including himself. The one thing Cassel is is a supportive teammate who was not reluctant to help the qbs he was competing against. He is the type of guy everyone can root for. I doubt that he is going to be a dynamo for the Cowgirls but I very much want to see him do well for team he is with.

[GaryPinC]

I didn't ignore anything. I'm surprised you're saying that, honestly. In fact, I don't have any idea whether he's better at this point than Manuel. Perhaps not. But that was never the issue. Whaley may have had a preference that differed from the coaches vis-a-vis Cassel. It's certainly within the realm of reason to suspect that this might be the case, although none of us really know (hence the thread).

 

Basically, it's surprising to me that you and others might think I'm some sort of advocate for Cassel. As KtD will tell you, I didn't like the original trade for Cassel when it went down, and argued that both Orton and McCown were better players. The issue now is whether Cassel is better than Josh Johnson or any of the other palookas under consideration. I think he is, and I don't agree with the decision to trade him for a future late-round pick. I suspect that was Whaley's decision given that he's the one most concerned about future picks, and because GMs are the ones who control trades (usually). The coaches didn't trade him, although perhaps they were on board with it. I find that a little hard to believe if they really had him as the #2, but who knows.

I understand where you're coming from, and yes no one on this board has shown any evidence of consensus about this. But to me, every front office, coach, player and fan know success is tethered to your quarterback situation. I find it inconceivable that Ryan and Roman would lie down and allow Whaley to go rogue with Cassel if they truly felt he was a critical #2 given Tyrod's lack of real game experience.

 

The other thing few give enough credit for is EJ's development. If he has turned the corner and taken a big step from training camp to the preseason, is it really impossible given his work ethic that he has continued to master the offense during the regular season? And even though Cassel was brought back a second time, EJ has continued to progress to the point Roman/Rex realized that Cassel's experienced knowledge wasn't much of a factor anymore and his participation (snaps) was only holding EJ back?

[Solomon Grundy]

Just to be clear, didn't Rex Ryan make the "present and future" comment regarding the quarterbacks?

Whaley has gotten a back stabing rep.......why do you think Simms elected to stay on the Falcons practice squad.......???????? He certainly stabbed Cassell...getting the pay cut and then trading him. Simms can't make the Buff Practice squad on a technicality.........that could have also been managed. I think Whaley did all this to get EJ another shot........I hope TT is out long enough for EJ to show what he has or doesn't have....this ought to be his last shot in Buffalo. I root for the Bills to win, and if EJ does well, so be it. But, if he gets a few games and bombs.....well, astalavista baby.......

If you were Simms and you had a choice between Hotlanta and Buffalo, which would you choose??

[Hapless Bills Fan]

As has been pointed out by others in a different thread: maybe/maybe not.

Cassel - as a vet with lots of game day experience - could probably run an offense no-notice better than EJ if TT got hurt in the course of a game.

That doesn't necessarily mean Cassel could run the offense better with a week of preparation under his belt.

In any case, watching the two in preseason, it would be hard to understand how any coach would have rated MC much higher than EJ. EJ played well in preseason. Cassel being listed as #2 might have been little more than a coin flip.

I haven't heard anything from the coaching staff that indicates who might have been adamant about keeping or starting MC.

Interestingly, both MC and EJ will have a chance to start this weekend. It will be on very different offenses of course but will still be fun to see who does better.

 

One possibility is that MC could have specified in his reno'd contract that he would be the #2 backup? I don't know if a coaching staff would buy in to that but it's a possibility.

 

I think it's very probable that the position coaches, and likely Roman, lobbied very strongly for more - for 3 QB, for Jackson+Brown. I think that thing always goes on. Meanwhile the D coach is lobbying for more DL and more CB and the ST coach wants THESE backups and not THOSE backups.

 

Then the HC needs to settle the "how many of what" question and someone's Ox is bound to be gored by not keeping a player who could be genuinely useful or even season-saving in the event of cascading injuries as the Bills offense is facing.

[JohnC]

 

There's no need to, if there's agreement.

The coaches are going to go along because they have no other choice. This was a Whaley decision, simple as that. I'm sure Whaley talked to Roman and Rex about what he was going to do or prior to what he was thinking about. Both coaches have been around long enough to know how the system works.

[chris heff]

So I'm confused, wasn't Cassel cut to get down to 53? Are those cuts made by the GM or HC? In this instance hopefully it was both, because if this was just Whaley then the organization is disfunctional. Which means this team is going nowhere.

 

Is it possible that they traded for Cassel, coaches and GM decided he wasn't worth the money, so he gets cut. Nobody picks him up, you bring him back for the minimum. You make Cassel second string, wait until somebody has QB problem and you trade him to get back something.

[Malazan]

It's hogwash from the reporter circle jerk. The National writer doesn't have any insight into the situation so they go to a local reporter and ask him about it then "Sources close to the team" say that some coaches wanted Cassel based on what a reporter *thinks*.

[Doc]

The coaches are going to go along because they have no other choice. This was a Whaley decision, simple as that. I'm sure Whaley talked to Roman and Rex about what he was going to do or prior to what he was thinking about. Both coaches have been around long enough to know how the system works.

 

True that ultimately what the GM wants will happen. But it doesn't mean the coaches were dead set against it, which was my main point.

[JohnC]

 

True that ultimately what the GM wants will happen. But it doesn't mean the coaches were dead set against it, which was my main point.

I'm sure Whaley discussed with the coaches how they felt about EJ and if he was progressing and ready to move up the ranks. If Roman would have told Whaley that EJ wasn't prepared to step up into the immediate backup role Whaley would not have made the deal.

 

Whaley is the boss and has the final say on personnel. But Whaley is the type of GM who solicits input and seriously considers the input. He has a collaborative style in contrast to Tom Donahoe, the unappealing authoritarian.

[Doc]

I'm sure Whaley discussed with the coaches how they felt about EJ and if he was progressing and ready to move up the ranks. If Roman would have told Whaley that EJ wasn't prepared to step up into the immediate backup role Whaley would not have made the deal.

 

Whaley is the boss and has the final say on personnel. But Whaley is the type of GM who solicits input and seriously considers the input. He has a collaborative style in contrast to Tom Donahoe, the unappealing authoritarian.

 

Well then, we're in violent agreement here.

[hondo in seattle]

It's hogwash from the reporter circle jerk. The National writer doesn't have any insight into the situation so they go to a local reporter and ask him about it then "Sources close to the team" say that some coaches wanted Cassel based on what a reporter *thinks*.

 

Dead on.

I'm sure Whaley discussed with the coaches how they felt about EJ and if he was progressing and ready to move up the ranks. If Roman would have told Whaley that EJ wasn't prepared to step up into the immediate backup role Whaley would not have made the deal.

 

Whaley is the boss and has the final say on personnel. But Whaley is the type of GM who solicits input and seriously considers the input. He has a collaborative style in contrast to Tom Donahoe, the unappealing authoritarian.

 

Agree.

 

I think some of the ideas circulated by the local press (i.e. Bucky and Sully) are ludicrous.

 

The notion that Whaley went rogue and traded MC with Rex's knowledge or input, for example. I can't imagine that scenario.

 

And then the idea that Rex is going to play TT even though he's seriously injured because he has so little faith in EJ. That's just dumb. We can argue all day if EJ will ever be a good starter in the NFL but - based on his regular season record and demonstrated improvement this preseason - he's a legit backup. If TT cannot safely play, EJ will start. And it's not a big deal - just another backup coming in for an injured starter. Happens all the time. But Bucky and Sully want to turn this into a drama-fest with DW cast as the villain.

Edited October 15, 2015 by hondo in seattle

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Bucky and Sullivan

 

Oh, wait...

[K-9]

The coaches are going to go along because they have no other choice. This was a Whaley decision, simple as that. I'm sure Whaley talked to Roman and Rex about what he was going to do or prior to what he was thinking about. Both coaches have been around long enough to know how the system works.

 

Coaches that report directly to the owner do have a choice. It is not common.

 

It was a consensus decision no matter how hard it is for the Buckys and Jerrys of the world to accept, especially when they rely on the occurrence of a random event in order to bolster a predetermined conclusion.

 

Their predetermined outcome awaits results.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Rockinon]

So far the only thing I've actually heard or read were quotes from the QB coach (Lee) about how much Cassel helped "in the room" -- yet many of the local and national media continue to harp upon the notion that trading Cassel showed a huge lack of foresight by Whaley and is an example of dysfunction within the Bills' front office, since "some" in the organization wanted Cassel over Taylor and EJ.

 

Do we have anything specific from any other coach?

Dysfunction........seems to me the media is just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. I was at the preseason game against Pittsburgh and I never saw EJ looking so good. I truly believe his preseason performance made Cassel expendable.

[iinii]

do we care?

[Kelly the Dog]

Dysfunction........seems to me the media is just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. I was at the preseason game against Pittsburgh and I never saw EJ looking so good. I truly believe his preseason performance made Cassel expendable.

That's exactly what happened. Sometimes people just lack common sense or the ability to take a step back. Chances are great the new Bills coaches saw a lot of what we did in the game tape of EJ: Indecision, inaccuracy, and not reading the field well. Mechanics breaking down resulting in errant throws. But he was also inexperienced. What a lot of us and they didn't know is the crappy coaching that EJ and the offense as a whole got.

 

When the OTAs started, Roman and Rex were probably comfortable but not happy with Cassel as the starter, and they just didn't know about TT and EJ. All three didn't start well but they were learning a new offense that was complicated, as well as new receivers and runners, as well as going against one of the most confusing defenses in practice, which the coaches were also trying to instill so they were showing all looks.

 

But then something happened that shouldn't have been so surprising. TT and EJ both started getting confident in the offense, both got good coaching, and by the preseason games were getting better and better. They both looked very accurate in the games. And they both probably surprised Roman and Rex to some degree. It was a vastly different EJ in these games than we saw last year. Once he got his confidence, his mechanics didn't break down and he was quite accurate. His confidence in himself and his game and his standing and in knowing the offense blossomed. It doesn't mean it will automatically transfer to the regular season, we can only hope.

 

Good coaching, good players around him, confidence in a good offense, and he got much better. Who new such madness could happen?

[JohnC]

Coaches that report directly to the owner do have a choice. It is not common.

 

It was a consensus decision no matter how hard it is for the Buckys and Jerrys of the world to accept, especially when they rely on the occurrence of a random event in order to bolster a predetermined conclusion.

 

Their predetermined outcome awaits results.

 

GO BILLS!!!

As you indicated when Rex signed on he was given the authority to go directly to the owner if he felt the need to. I very confident that he didn't do so in this case because this wasn't a transaction that would compel him to go to the owner.

 

As you noted this was a consensus decision in that Whaley didn't surprise the coaches with a "fait accompli" so there is no point in any further discussion. That is not Whaley's management approach.

 

I like Whaley a lot. He is the antithesis of Tom Donohoe who had a very authoritarian management style. Whaley is the type of executive who believes in a decision-making process that is very inclusive yet understands that he is the boss and has the ultimate say.

 

As I stated in a couple of prior posts I'm sure that he consulted with Roman and Rex to get a feel where EJ was as a player and was he ready to move up the ranks prior to the trade.

 

Well then, we're in violent agreement here.

Don't take this personally but when we agree I get very queasy. The odds take a dramatic downturn on being right.

[dave mcbride]

Some are congenitally pessimistic about the organization and assume the trade of Cassel was all Whaley's doing; others are eternally optimistic and assume that the organization is a model of collaboration and that everyone involved bought into the move. It is true that Ryan does have power that most coaches don't have, which suggests that he wasn't trod upon by the GM, but at the same time it is highly unlikely that the organization is a model of collaboration. Hardly any are, especially in the amped up world of the NFL, where the structure of the coach-GM relationship produces different incentives. And there's some history to consider: Whaley had a terrible relationship with the last coach, and neither Roman nor Ryan got along at all with their previous GMs. Indeed, the atmosphere was poisonous in Buffalo, SF, and NY last season. People don't change overnight, although change can happen. Regardless, none of us really know at this point.

Edited October 15, 2015 by dave mcbride

[3rdand12]

Dysfunction........seems to me the media is just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. I was at the preseason game against Pittsburgh and I never saw EJ looking so good. I truly believe his preseason performance made Cassel expendable.

Interesting take Rockinon.

 

Glad to hear your opinion on EJM btw !