YoloinOhio Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 Rewinding to one year ago this week - EJ benched for Orton. I would rather be in the position we are now arguing about good vs great D as a huge issue, than where we were then. Unrelated but just saying.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) I have to question whether you watched the INDY, MIA, and the second half of the NYG game with this post.. Not to mention the offense was stagnant for most of the NE game as well as the NYG game which did the defense no favors.. There's no way you can justify this thinking IMO. @TheJoeMarino Hearing "#Bills D isn't as good this year. Last year it was elite." Here's how they compare in 1st 4 games. #Relax So when you look at the stats, they don't look that different. That begs the question: are the differences significant? Just looking at this year's stats...the difference in points given up is the difference between 9th and 16th in the league. The difference in pass yards per attempt is the difference between 6th and 20th in the league. Most of those are very significant differences in this league. Of greater concern at this point, I feel a clear blueprint has been shown in two games against quality veteran QB: 1) Make offensive substitutions and adjustments to force the D to react, especially effective with crowd noise hindering communication 2) Keep 7 men in to block and look for the coverage breakdown 3) Get the ball out quickly I could be suffering from retroactive blindness, but last year after 4 games I don't recall feeling that the blueprint for how to beat us is out there, and not feeling comfortable that we had the adjustments to counter it. The concern I have about Carucci's article is that Rex, coming in, said he didn't run a scheme, he'd adjust his scheme to fit his players. The take-away I have from that article is that Rex is, in fact, not doing that; he's asking the DL to change what they were so effective at, and running a scheme that may call for a different style of linebacker. That's exactly what he said he WOULDN'T do. Two Things that seem obvious to me: 1) All the pre-snap movement and trickery is fooling no one. The next time I see Kyle Williams dropping back into coverage, I'm going to throw something through my TV! 2) The lack of rotation, we have seen very little of Stephan Charles, Corbin Bryan, Alex Carrigan, etc. It seems like (i think someone else posted the stats to verify this) that we are not doing that as much, and I have to wonder if it is wearing them down? I disagree a bit. I think the pre-snap movement and trickery drove Tannehill nuts and bothered Luck. The problem is, when you get to a quality veteran QB, no, it's not fooling them. Any scheme which has Kyle Williams dropping back into coverage is a Bad Scheme. You are exactly right that we aren't rotating our DL Edited October 8, 2015 by Hopeful
Dan Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 The concern I have about Carucci's article is that Rex, coming in, said he didn't run a scheme, he'd adjust his scheme to fit his players. The take-away I have from that article is that Rex is, in fact, not doing that; he's asking the DL to change what they were so effective at, and running a scheme that may call for a different style of linebacker. That's exactly what he said he WOULDN'T do. As I watch the games, that's my thought as well (and it was my primary concern when Rex was hired and brought his entire defensive staff with him). We seem to be installing a Rex scheme and making the existing players fit, rather than saying these are the guys I got, let's play to their strengths. The genius of Rex's past defenses have been their ability to generate QB pressure and confusion without elite talent. The problem now is he has elite talent but he's using that as though he has to disguise the pressure. Disguised or not our DLine can generate pass rush. Someone else said it... But they seem to be using a lot of trickery and movement to fix something that doesn't need fixing. The blueprint on how to beat us? As many have already exemplified, the Giants offense didn't do **** the entire second half of the football game outside of one huge play due to bad tackling. If the blueprint on how to beat us is to only score 7 points in the 2nd half of football games and go 3 and out on 6 straight possession's then I hope teams keep following that blue print. Ever consider that maybe the Giants went conservative in the 2nd half because they were controlling the game? The one time they needed to score (the drive after our TD), they did it with ease. Not every team in the league continues to run the score up and pad their stats and egos.
H2o Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I have to question whether you watched the INDY, MIA, and the second half of the NYG game with this post.. Not to mention the offense was stagnant for most of the NE game as well as the NYG game which did the defense no favors.. There's no way you can justify this thinking IMO. @TheJoeMarino Hearing "#Bills D isn't as good this year. Last year it was elite." Here's how they compare in 1st 4 games. #Relax Nice, I wonder how Pettine's squad stacked up against both of these in 2013?
YoloinOhio Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 Nice, I wonder how Pettine's squad stacked up against both of these in 2013?his defense is so,so,so bad now in Cleveland. Just horrible. That is all. Sorry I didn't answer your question.
thebandit27 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 As I watch the games, that's my thought as well (and it was my primary concern when Rex was hired and brought his entire defensive staff with him). We seem to be installing a Rex scheme and making the existing players fit, rather than saying these are the guys I got, let's play to their strengths. The genius of Rex's past defenses have been their ability to generate QB pressure and confusion without elite talent. The problem now is he has elite talent but he's using that as though he has to disguise the pressure. Disguised or not our DLine can generate pass rush. Someone else said it... But they seem to be using a lot of trickery and movement to fix something that doesn't need fixing. Ever consider that maybe the Giants went conservative in the 2nd half because they were controlling the game? The one time they needed to score (the drive after our TD), they did it with ease. Not every team in the league continues to run the score up and pad their stats and egos. I don't think there's anything wrong with Rex's scheme, or with the players. The Giants had a total of 303 offensive yards, 52 of which came on the Jennings TD that should have been a 3-yard loss. Their 3 TD drives resulted from (a) a brutal tackling effort (Jennings' TD), (b) a turnover on their own 23, and © two critical, bone-headed defensive penalties (PF on Hughes and Kyle's illegal formation on the FG) plus a borderline defensive holding on Darby. Outside the NE game, they've been fine. Too many penalties for sure, but their level of play is not a concern.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I don't think there's anything wrong with Rex's scheme, or with the players. The Giants had a total of 303 offensive yards, 52 of which came on the Jennings TD that should have been a 3-yard loss. Their 3 TD drives resulted from (a) a brutal tackling effort (Jennings' TD), (b) a turnover on their own 23, and © two critical, bone-headed defensive penalties (PF on Hughes and Kyle's illegal formation on the FG) plus a borderline defensive holding on Darby. Outside the NE game, they've been fine. Too many penalties for sure, but their level of play is not a concern. This also raises the question, while the personal fouls on the Defense are dumb and need to be eliminated, are the OL penalties the real issue? OL play directly led to 2 TDs being pulled off the board.
Coach Tuesday Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 The pass rush has been significantly muted. And not just by the quick drops or just in the NE or NYG games. Even when QB's are holding the ball they aren't getting to them as quickly as we've become accustomed for the past couple of seasons. As you noted, the corner play has definitely been better and has covered up some for their uncharacteristic lack of push. I've advocated spreading the DL out more to create wider OL splits and force blockers to defend our DL in space and make teams using the short passing game throw over or thru DL. My guess is that Rex is not using that approach because it structurally weakens the run defense. But that's why you PAID Marcel Dareus and Kyle Williams. The strength of Rex Ryan's D early on in NY was it's ability to create both solid run defense and pass rush without requiring exceptional talent on the DL. Now he has a once-in-a-career type 4 man front and he is using them the same way he would any other assembly of talent. We've seen coaches not cater their schemes to the talent at hand before, this is no different. This. Last year, the D-line folded up the pocket like they were crushing an aluminum can - that's how it looked to me - on most passing plays. It was quite a sight to behold. And I suspect a lot of it had to do with the wider formation. They still managed to play the run just fine for the most part. They need to go back to that, fast.
Malazan Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I think the problem lies in the Offense not the defensive line not getting to the QB in less than 1.5 seconds.
NorthBuffaloKid Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I tend to agree with him on this one. They don't seem to be as intense as in the past.
YattaOkasan Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Had some trouble finding this (so would like a better source), but we had 80 hurries last year (5/game) and we have 18 this year (4.5/game). So its dropped off a bit, but I think the QB's we have played this year are superior to the average of last year. Concluding they were comparable is laughable. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/total-team-defensive-hurries/2015/
GG Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I think the problem lies in the Offense not the defensive line not getting to the QB in less than 1.5 seconds. That may be an issue, but that's not the subject of Carucci's piece. The crux of the argument is that Pegula has $250 million invested in the DL, but Rex is running a scheme that's fit for above average DLs, but not elite DLs. This reminds me of Haynesworth's quip that Redskins made him the highest paid DL, but then asked him to be a space occupier. So while the defense overall may be delivering similar stats to last year, this will become an issue during contract negotiations in the future as the Bills have a lot invested in the DL, but not getting the performance out of that unit in line with the investment. To add one more criticism to the defensive scheme so far - despite the anemic offense, the unit has battled back to less than 7 point deficit in both of the losses, and needed the defense to come up with a game saving stop in the fourth quarter. In each case, the defense gave up a backbreaking 3rd down conversion. We have not seen a must-stop event yet.
Justice Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 That may be an issue, but that's not the subject of Carucci's piece. The crux of the argument is that Pegula has $250 million invested in the DL, but Rex is running a scheme that's fit for above average DLs, but not elite DLs. This reminds me of Haynesworth's quip that Redskins made him the highest paid DL, but then asked him to be a space occupier. So while the defense overall may be delivering similar stats to last year, this will become an issue during contract negotiations in the future as the Bills have a lot invested in the DL, but not getting the performance out of that unit in line with the investment. To add one more criticism to the defensive scheme so far - despite the anemic offense, the unit has battled back to less than 7 point deficit in both of the losses, and needed the defense to come up with a game saving stop in the fourth quarter. In each case, the defense gave up a backbreaking 3rd down conversion. We have not seen a must-stop event yet. That's exactly what I'm saying. Forget the stats. It's when they move the ball on us that counts.
YoloinOhio Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) That may be an issue, but that's not the subject of Carucci's piece. The crux of the argument is that Pegula has $250 million invested in the DL, but Rex is running a scheme that's fit for above average DLs, but not elite DLs. This reminds me of Haynesworth's quip that Redskins made him the highest paid DL, but then asked him to be a space occupier. So while the defense overall may be delivering similar stats to last year, this will become an issue during contract negotiations in the future as the Bills have a lot invested in the DL, but not getting the performance out of that unit in line with the investment. To add one more criticism to the defensive scheme so far - despite the anemic offense, the unit has battled back to less than 7 point deficit in both of the losses, and needed the defense to come up with a game saving stop in the fourth quarter. In each case, the defense gave up a backbreaking 3rd down conversion. We have not seen a must-stop event yet. were those 3rd down conversions a result of the scheme, or a result of poor execution? How about the ones they have up last year vs Miami, Oakland, KC? Scheme or execution? Edited October 8, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Lurker Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I could be suffering from retroactive blindness, but last year after 4 games I don't recall feeling that the blueprint for how to beat us is out there, Revisit the San Diego game from Week 3 last year. It was very similar to the Giant's loss. Also, the Pats loss in Week 6. It was almost identical to the Week 2 loss this year--meaning the only difference was the calendar...
thebandit27 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 That may be an issue, but that's not the subject of Carucci's piece. The crux of the argument is that Pegula has $250 million invested in the DL, but Rex is running a scheme that's fit for above average DLs, but not elite DLs. This reminds me of Haynesworth's quip that Redskins made him the highest paid DL, but then asked him to be a space occupier. So while the defense overall may be delivering similar stats to last year, this will become an issue during contract negotiations in the future as the Bills have a lot invested in the DL, but not getting the performance out of that unit in line with the investment. To add one more criticism to the defensive scheme so far - despite the anemic offense, the unit has battled back to less than 7 point deficit in both of the losses, and needed the defense to come up with a game saving stop in the fourth quarter. In each case, the defense gave up a backbreaking 3rd down conversion. We have not seen a must-stop event yet. A few key points here: - They actually did come up with a stop in the NE game...they held NE to a field goal to keep it a one-score game and give the offense the ball with over a minute remaining - The defense did allow the Jennings play to happen, which we all know wasn't a scheme issue, since Bradham was in position to make a TFL. On the ensuing possession, Woods fumbled to give the Giants the ball in Buffalo's territory. We responded by taking the ball away inside our own 5 to give the offense the ball with nearly 4 minutes remaining and 3 timeouts. Were it not for Incognito's penalty, it would have been a 1-score game with 50 seconds left and 3 timeouts. I think people are unjustly criticizing the D. Go back and look at each of the Giants' scoring drives and you'll see that, by far, penalties and missed tackles are the issue. It's not scheme...at all.
FireChan Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 A few key points here: - They actually did come up with a stop in the NE game...they held NE to a field goal to keep it a one-score game and give the offense the ball with over a minute remaining - The defense did allow the Jennings play to happen, which we all know wasn't a scheme issue, since Bradham was in position to make a TFL. On the ensuing possession, Woods fumbled to give the Giants the ball in Buffalo's territory. We responded by taking the ball away inside our own 5 to give the offense the ball with nearly 4 minutes remaining and 3 timeouts. Were it not for Incognito's penalty, it would have been a 1-score game with 50 seconds left and 3 timeouts. I think people are unjustly criticizing the D. Go back and look at each of the Giants' scoring drives and you'll see that, by far, penalties and missed tackles are the issue. It's not scheme...at all. After allowing a TD the drive before.
thebandit27 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 After allowing a TD the drive before. Ok...and? The response was made to a claim that they hadn't come up with a key stop yet...holding Brady to 3 points and keeping it a one-score game with a minute left at home is a key stop that gives you a chance to go to overtime.
FireChan Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) Ok...and? The response was made to a claim that they hadn't come up with a key stop yet...holding Brady to 3 points and keeping it a one-score game with a minute left at home is a key stop that gives you a chance to go to overtime. If they allowed 0 points, we could've had the chance to win the game. Edited October 8, 2015 by FireChan
The Big Cat Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I have to question whether you watched the INDY, MIA, and the second half of the NYG game with this post.. Not to mention the offense was stagnant for most of the NE game as well as the NYG game which did the defense no favors.. There's no way you can justify this thinking IMO. @TheJoeMarino Hearing "#Bills D isn't as good this year. Last year it was elite." Here's how they compare in 1st 4 games. #Relax /thread
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