The Big Cat Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Every time I see someone crying for the return of the Wide 9 it reminds me of this thread- not that I personally think it was a bad fit, it worked well. But the thread was good. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/167234-is-jim-schwartz-a-dinosaur/?hl=dinosaur I MADE THIS
YoloinOhio Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 I MADE THIS yes it was and still is a masterpiece
K-9 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 OK, so this is a different viewpoint: the D and especially the DL need more time to learn the scheme and adjust. I hope you're right. I'm not sure about last season. At this point last season, we had given up <19 PPG. It is a point that last season our first 4 games did not include Brady and Eli Manning, but did include Rivers who is pretty well thought of in QB circles. I've been saying this since Ryan was hired and the decision to let Schwartz go was made. Implementing new schemes rarely happens quickly on either side of the ball. These players are talented and it's only a matter of time before everything clicks, imo. Like last year, we've seen glimpses through the first four games. I hear ya about the points per game given up, but I think it's only 17 more over the four games. Again, I think the Pats* game is an outlier, but I fully accept the fact that they all count, regardless. We have to tighten that up for sure. GO BILLS!!!
The Big Cat Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 yes it was and still is a masterpiece I also want some credit for this, while we're at it: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/167234-is-jim-schwartz-a-dinosaur/page-5?do=findComment&comment=3115546
K-9 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 In my view its sort of a ridiculous miss-match for that huge linemen in Kyle Williams to be asked to cover a receiver crossing that zone, as those men are being to cover an area larger then they normally would as a pass rusher. Then being asked to possibly chase around a receiver across the field could easily wear them out during a game. With the team dropping a linemen into coverage at times then they only rushed with three! It doesn't matter how many times they were asked to drop into pass coverage (and I'm far to lazy to go back and look) since that is not what those players are being paid the big bucks to do. This also isn't the sole reason as to why the defense isn't playing as well as it could. Like I asked previously, what would you rather see Kyle Williams, Jerry Hughes do in a game? I know I'd rather see Ryan do what he does best, and that is bring one more rusher then the offense has blocking while finding a way to get to the QB to ruin his day. That, and fixing the penalties!! They gave the Giants 7 first downs I get it, you are not a fan of the zone blitz concept, regardless of the context. Write Dick LeBeau a letter. GO BILLS!!!
Nihilarian Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I get it, you are not a fan of the zone blitz concept, regardless of the context. Write Dick LeBeau a letter. GO BILLS!!! I didn't say that at all. If the Bills are going to zone blitz, and drop a DE into pass coverage I know I'd prefer it to be Jerry Hughes who has the size of a LBer at 252lb, and he can run a sub 5.0 40. Williams ran a 5.25 at the combine 10 years ago
John from Riverside Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I didn't say that at all. If the Bills are going to zone blitz, and drop a DE into pass coverage I know I'd prefer it to be Jerry Hughes who has the size of a LBer at 252lb, and he can run a sub 5.0 40. Williams ran a 5.25 at the combine 10 years ago 40 times have nothing to do with successful attributes of that play its about short area quickness....which the DT has plenty of Remember....you are trying to confuse a QB here.....a big widebody in the wrong spot on the field can cause hesitation because you wonder if your getting goaded into throwing the ball into a certain area of the field
YoloinOhio Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 40 times have nothing to do with successful attributes of that play its about short area quickness....which the DT has plenty of Remember....you are trying to confuse a QB here.....a big widebody in the wrong spot on the field can cause hesitation because you wonder if your getting goaded into throwing the ball into a certain area of the field from Andy Benoit's analysis yesterday, he said the Bills believe KW to be one of the most exceptional athletes on the team. They move him around based on what he has the ability to do. He just happens to be a big body.
K-9 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I didn't say that at all. If the Bills are going to zone blitz, and drop a DE into pass coverage I know I'd prefer it to be Jerry Hughes who has the size of a LBer at 252lb, and he can run a sub 5.0 40. Williams ran a 5.25 at the combine 10 years ago We've also seen Hughes in zone blitz coverages as well. Anyway, the references to 40 times, etc, really misses the point. I get it, you want a better athlete dropping off the LOS. When you're done with that letter to LeBeau, perhaps you can pen one to Rex. GO BILLS!!!
BrooklynBills Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Dareus played NT under Pettine 2 years ago. Mario and Hughes are edge rushers whether from a 3 point stance or 2 point. Dropping lineman into short zones is so common place now that I doubt anyone considers an exotic concept anymore. It's been done since the 80s. Nickell Robey is playing nearly 70% of the defensive snaps which means we are typical aligned in a 2-4 or 3-3 front with Mario, Hughes, Bradham, and Brown basically never coming off the field and with Kyle and Dareus as interior rushers. The bills are top 10 in yards per play allowed and top 4 in most defensive snaps against. In our two losses, they have faced short fields most of the game. They have also had injuries to safeties in every game. This is a big problem. Poor safety play/communication has led to a few big plays including the 51 yard TD to Jennings as Jennings was not Bradham's man on that play which means someone in the secondary(graham or Rambo or Williams) blew that coverage. This is a heavy man on man based scheme. Poor communication in the secondary is costing us.
YoloinOhio Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 Dareus played NT under Pettine 2 years ago. Mario and Hughes are edge rushers whether from a 3 point stance or 2 point. Dropping lineman into short zones is so common place now that I doubt anyone considers an exotic concept anymore. It's been done since the 80s. Nickell Robey is playing nearly 70% of the defensive snaps which means we are typical aligned in a 2-4 or 3-3 front with Mario, Hughes, Bradham, and Brown basically never coming off the field and with Kyle and Dareus as interior rushers. The bills are top 10 in yards per play allowed and top 4 in most defensive snaps against. In our two losses, they have faced short fields most of the game. They have also had injuries to safeties in every game. This is a big problem. Poor safety play/communication has led to a few big plays including the 51 yard TD to Jennings as Jennings was not Bradham's man on that play which means someone in the secondary(graham or Rambo or Williams) blew that coverage. This is a heavy man on man based scheme. Poor communication in the secondary is costing us. agree with all of this
Willyville Guy Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I generally agree that the process of adapting to a new system takes time, and this particular system has proven to be effective, so Bills fans should be comfortable that it’s only a matter of time before the line gets comfortable and starts playing the fast kind of ball they want to play. BUT, I do not like to read quotes from Kyle and Dareus saying that they are not playing in ways that favor their natural talents and instincts. That sounds dangerously close to what I’m reading about Suh in Miami. The quotes in Vic’s article are troubling.
peterpan Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Dareus had a quote about this in TC. Instead of being allowed to just rush and dominate he is being Asked to play more of a role, play a gap, or two gaps, take up blockers etc. Rex's scheme simple doesn't use our talent well. I said this when he was singed. He doesn't need guys like Mario and Dareus he needs guys like revis and lucky for us - Darby. His pressure comes from blitzes, that's where he has had success in the past. It's a bad scheme for with our personel and it was from the start.
3rdand12 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 But see, to your point and JTSP previously expressed point (Sorry J for not finding and quoting you) - this is EXACTLY what bothers me. We had a top-4 elite D last year, and Rex came in speaking to concerns that it wasn't "his type" of players by saying a lot of stuff about how he would fit his scheme to the players and he's never had such talent etc etc etc. If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is Rex needs to rebuild the D, move on from a pro-bowl DT and draft a bunch of replacement players for CBs and LBs - all of whom played elite D last year. The point is, if you're correct, this totally contradicts everything Rex said when hired and in preseason about the D and how he would manage it. I really don't want to hear about how we need to rebuild the D to make the playoffs. We have the talent now. Rex was handed the keys to a top-4 D and good players were added. If he can't figure out how to drive it, that's really on him. I am a bit off topic perhaps but his scheme is very dependant upon individual play beyond the line of scrimmage. Based upon trust that a player knows his duty, reads the play and executes. If Rex is at fault he might be asking to much from the brain power of the individual ? Maybe he gave them too much responsibility too soon. some guys are fine and some struggled. I could name names but that is not my point. If this is true at all, the Bills defense will continually improve. Honestly i think we saw that against the Giants who tried to pull the same crap as the Pats. short and quick. Thats fine as long as Bills D see the play and shut down the YAC. btw i think he and Thurman can drive it, they just need to regap the plugs and retard the ignition for a minute. A bit of a reset maybe?
Nihilarian Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 We've also seen Hughes in zone blitz coverages as well. Anyway, the references to 40 times, etc, really misses the point. I get it, you want a better athlete dropping off the LOS. When you're done with that letter to LeBeau, perhaps you can pen one to Rex. GO BILLS!!! I think you are missing my point! I'd rather see Rex Ryan return to his mainstay defense with the overload blitzing scheme like he had with the Jets, and the Bills had with Pettine. When the Bills drop a D linemen into coverage they are sometimes only rushing with three players which is something I really dislike, and takes away from what those defensive line players do best.
3rdand12 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) I MADE THIS yes you did yes it was and still is a masterpiece its sure as heck is!! Dareus played NT under Pettine 2 years ago. Mario and Hughes are edge rushers whether from a 3 point stance or 2 point. Dropping lineman into short zones is so common place now that I doubt anyone considers an exotic concept anymore. It's been done since the 80s. Nickell Robey is playing nearly 70% of the defensive snaps which means we are typical aligned in a 2-4 or 3-3 front with Mario, Hughes, Bradham, and Brown basically never coming off the field and with Kyle and Dareus as interior rushers. The bills are top 10 in yards per play allowed and top 4 in most defensive snaps against. In our two losses, they have faced short fields most of the game. They have also had injuries to safeties in every game. This is a big problem. Poor safety play/communication has led to a few big plays including the 51 yard TD to Jennings as Jennings was not Bradham's man on that play which means someone in the secondary(graham or Rambo or Williams) blew that coverage. This is a heavy man on man based scheme. Poor communication in the secondary is costing us. good post Brooklyn1 among others here abouts Dareus had a quote about this in TC. Instead of being allowed to just rush and dominate he is being Asked to play more of a role, play a gap, or two gaps, take up blockers etc. Rex's scheme simple doesn't use our talent well. I said this when he was singed. He doesn't need guys like Mario and Dareus he needs guys like revis and lucky for us - Darby. His pressure comes from blitzes, that's where he has had success in the past. It's a bad scheme for with our personel and it was from the start. Dareus had a quote about this during the contract talks. No one else has said this. What W G is putting forth is isolated. and possibly out of context ? " quotes from Kyle and Dareus saying that they are not playing in ways that favor their natural talents and instincts" You are usually a reasonable person Peter, considering .. and M D could have signed somewhere else if he dont like Rex. Kyle is actually kickin ass. His pressures are almost neverending and he still penetrates that LOS like no ones business Edited October 8, 2015 by 3rdand12
K-9 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I think you are missing my point! I'd rather see Rex Ryan return to his mainstay defense with the overload blitzing scheme like he had with the Jets, and the Bills had with Pettine. When the Bills drop a D linemen into coverage they are sometimes only rushing with three players which is something I really dislike, and takes away from what those defensive line players do best. Your point seems to be you don't want who you perceive to be not athletic enough to drop back off the LOS in zone blitzes. You can't say you want Rex to return to his mainstay defense and at the same time decry his use of zone blitzes. It's been a staple since his days in Baltimore. We've seen his overload blitzes and I think we'll see more with the return of a healthy Williams playing with Graham at the safety spots. As to when they rush three, can you tell me what the game situation was at the time? There's usually a method to the madness, not the least of which is showing something in a game to set up something else later on. GO BILLS!!! GO BILLS!!!
3rdand12 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I think you are missing my point! I'd rather see Rex Ryan return to his mainstay defense with the overload blitzing scheme like he had with the Jets, and the Bills had with Pettine. When the Bills drop a D linemen into coverage they are sometimes only rushing with three players which is something I really dislike, and takes away from what those defensive line players do best. 1.79 seconds
K-9 Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 1.79 seconds Like Dareus said, you can't sack a garbage can in less than 2 seconds. Anyway, forcing teams to do that is a victory right off the bat. GO BILLS!!!
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