reddogblitz Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Yes, but let's put that in historical context, shall we? It's "Reasoned dissent is the highest form of patriotism". Jefferson didn't feel the need to say "Reasoned", because with him, it was implied. ----------------------------------------------- As it stands today: I cannot find a single position on the entire left that is based solely on reason. And, I also cannot find one that is primarily based on reason. No. The primary goal of every single position is to pay off constituencies, who in turn provide political power. The problem: the Obama coalition is falling apart rapidly. Paying off one group pisses off another(Keystone XL). This is what happens when you promise to be everything to everyone, and your only conviction is keeping yourself in power, to the massive detriment of the rest of the D party(see: massive R control at all levels of government, not seen since the 1920s). ----------------------------------------------- Now, let's compare. USA's methods for avoiding civilian casualties...vs...everybody else's. Name calling is what we do here after we have completely routed the opposition, or, in your case in this thread, the fight was over before it even started. Don't misunderstand: See, it's not enough to win the argument. Anybody can do that. You also need to add both insult and injury, or, it's not really considered a win here at PPP. As to the first part, an American dissent can only be "reasoned" even though TJ didn't say that.? It's "understood" by who? Who decides what's "reasonable"? As for the second part, do you think it's only the Ds who are beholden to big money contributors? Rs are just as corrupt and in the pocket of their "donors". The only difference between the Rs and Ds is they are in a different set of pockets. Now for the third part. Yeah I know you've told me that before. It's just as silly this time as it was the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 As to the first part, an American dissent can only be "reasoned" even though TJ didn't say that.? It's "understood" by who? Who decides what's "reasonable"? As for the second part, do you think it's only the Ds who are beholden to big money contributors? Rs are just as corrupt and in the pocket of their "donors". The only difference between the Rs and Ds is they are in a different set of pockets. Now for the third part. Yeah I know you've told me that before. It's just as silly this time as it was the last. The standard of what is considered Reasonable has been twisted to push agendas.Reasonable is decided upon by who controls the media and what the media wants to twist. Case in point is obama loves to use verbiage like "common sense legislation. .." to frame his radical views implying that it is Reasonable and if you disagree you are extreme. The media allows him to get away with it by and large. Secondly yes D and R alike are both corrupt. That is why so many "republican" voters are angry. They vote for candidates who claim to be conservative but once in office they ignore what got them elected and are beholden to their lobbyist donors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I AM proud to be an American. However, I'm not proud when foreign nations lump all Americans together, brand us as idiots, then point to the Clintons, POTUS, or some other left field politician as illustrative of the entire US nation. Nor am I proud when our current chief executive, by words and deeds, makes us out to be a second-tier country with much to apologize for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 I guess this goes here. WTF?!?!? http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/10/20/principal-holds-up-student-election-results-because-winners-not-diverse-enough.html?intcmp=hpbt2 Kids get it but the "grownups" don't. “I feel like it is disrespectful to all the people who were running,” student Sebastian Kaplan told television station KRON. “The whole school voted for those people, so it is not like people rigged the game, but in a way – now it is kind of being rigged.” “This is complex, but as a parent and a principal, I truly believe it behooves us to be thoughtful about our next steps here so we have a diverse student council that is truly representative of all voices at Everett,” she wrote in a message to moms and dads. No it's not complex. It's very simple. Those with the most votes win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 No it's not complex. It's very simple. Those with the most votes win. Of course not. That's predicated on an electorate knowing what's best for them. Clearly they don't, so the vote must be rigged so that a result is achieved deemed appropriate by the authorities, whether the electorate likes it or not. Yes, it's only school government. The scary thing is that anyone thinks that way at all. That's Nazi-type Fuehrerprinzip thinking there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 To answer this honestly, no I'm not. Problem is, there's no place any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I'm grateful to be an American. I consider myself lucky to be an American. I'm proud of my last name. I'm proud to be a Buffalonian. I don't really think I'm "proud" to be an American. I guess in some instances I am but not really overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) I AM proud to be an American. However, I'm not proud when foreign nations lump all Americans together, brand us as idiots, then point to the Clintons, POTUS, or some other left field politician as illustrative of the entire US nation. Nor am I proud when our current chief executive, by words and deeds, makes us out to be a second-tier country with much to apologize for. This is why I can't really dig PPP. It seems as if most people are fairly reasonable/examine both sides of issues but there's just too many of these brainwashed/clearly get every bit of their news from you know where types on here. So you are ashamed of the current administration and the Clinton administration but you make no mention of the administration in between? I mean, come on man. You don't need to apologize to anyone. If you go to any other modernized, westernized country in the world, an overwhelming majority (no, not everyone- please don't give an example of one guy you met in Belgium) of people were blown away by the fact that Bush got elected twice and are generally cool with the job Obama has done- by and large, that is. I mean, there isn't another such country on planet Earth that isn't to the left of us! But if you insist on living in your little fantasy bubble of yours, then yes, if you watch the Republican debates, you would think that everything was just fine and dandy until 2008 at which point this country went to s**t. It's such an incredible stretch to believe this, I can't believe that Republicans continue to get away with this narrative. But alas, their base has proven time and again to be so unbelievably gullible that it works. Wouldn't you question a news source that continually tells you that every last thing Obama has ever done is bad? I mean, you would think that once in seven years they might say, "hey not really an Obama guy but I'll give him credit for this one thing he did..." But instead, they do things like cherry pick a few economic indicators that are down and never once mention that the Dow has doubled. Edited November 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 This is why I can't really dig PPP. It seems as if most people are fairly reasonable/examine both sides of issues but there's just too many of these brainwashed/clearly get every bit of their news from you know where types on here. So you are ashamed of the current administration and the Clinton administration but you make no mention of the administration in between? I mean, come on man. You don't need to apologize to anyone. If you go to any other modernized, westernized country in the world, an overwhelming majority (no, not everyone- please don't give an example of one guy you met in Belgium) of people were blown away by the fact that Bush got elected twice and are generally cool with the job Obama has done- by and large, that is. I mean, there isn't another such country on planet Earth that isn't to the left of us! But if you insist on living in your little fantasy bubble of yours, then yes, if you watch the Republican debates, you would think that everything was just fine and dandy until 2008 at which point this country went to s**t. It's such an incredible stretch to believe this, I can't believe that Republicans continue to get away with this narrative. But alas, their base has proven time and again to be so unbelievably gullible that it works. Wouldn't you question a news source that continually tells you that every last thing Obama has ever done is bad? I mean, you would think that once in seven years they might say, "hey not really an Obama guy but I'll give him credit for this one thing he did..." But instead, they do things like cherry pick a few economic indicators that are down and never once mention that the Dow has doubled. I take it you frequently spend time in Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) But if you insist on living in your little fantasy bubble of yours, then yes, if you watch the Republican debates, you would think that everything was just fine and dandy until 2008 at which point this country went to s**t. If you watched the debates, you would know that nothing like this statement was even hinted at. You are doing what many visitors here do, you are projecting your already established perception (read bias) about conservatives onto what fits the liberal narrative. Your argument that President Obama won both elections so people approve of his policies is very shallow. As has been noted here in many, many threads just look at how the number of GOP office holders has increased in HUGE amounts across the country since 2008. You talk about one-sided articles being posted here. No offense, but those are exactly the types of pieces that many folks out there are not exposed to, and that's why it's important that (maybe) you check out a few of them, and not just judge them by the source. . Edited November 5, 2015 by B-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) I take it you frequently spend time in Europe? Enough. Do you think that the general viewpoint held by most educated English, French and Germans is that the Clinton and Obama administrations were abominations but that the Bush administration was just the tops? Forget about what you think- let's say or the sake of argument, that's the case. Do you really think, as the poster intimated, that that is what most Europeans think? If you watched the debates, you would know that nothing like this statement was even hinted at. You are doing what many visitors here do, you are projecting your already established perception (read bias) about conservatives onto what fits the liberal narrative. Your argument that President Obama won both elections so people approve of his policies is very shallow. As has been noted here in many, many threads just look at how the number of GOP office holders has increased in HUGE amounts across the country since 2008. You talk about one-sided articles being posted here. No offense, but those are exactly the types of pieces that many folks out there are nou exposed to, and that's why it's important that (maybe) you check out a few of them, and not just judge them by the source. . I already said that it appears the majority of posters on here are capable of looking at both sides of issues. I myself watch Fox News (until I start yelling at the TV) and watched the first two Republican debates in their entirety. I live for playing devil's advocate in these type of discussions. While most candidates are quick to jump on the Iraq War (or at least the ones who didn't vote on it because they weren't in politics at the time), I think it's fair to say that their much bigger gripe is with the Obama administration. And no, I don't think that just because Obama was elected twice that that is necessarily an endorsement of the job he has done. Nor is an increase in Republican House/Senate seats an endorsement of the job they have done. Republicans win elections when voter turnout is low, period. My point is that if you only watched Fox News and the Republican debates, you would think that this country is far worse off than it really is. Is that even debatable? I guess I can't really waste my time debating with someone who believes that the portrait that Sean Hannity paints of this country is an accurate one. Edited November 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 This is why I can't really dig PPP. It seems as if most people are fairly reasonable/examine both sides of issues but there's just too many of these brainwashed/clearly get every bit of their news from you know where types on here. So you are ashamed of the current administration and the Clinton administration but you make no mention of the administration in between? I mean, come on man. You don't need to apologize to anyone. If you go to any other modernized, westernized country in the world, an overwhelming majority (no, not everyone- please don't give an example of one guy you met in Belgium) of people were blown away by the fact that Bush got elected twice and are generally cool with the job Obama has done- by and large, that is. I mean, there isn't another such country on planet Earth that isn't to the left of us! But if you insist on living in your little fantasy bubble of yours, then yes, if you watch the Republican debates, you would think that everything was just fine and dandy until 2008 at which point this country went to s**t. It's such an incredible stretch to believe this, I can't believe that Republicans continue to get away with this narrative. But alas, their base has proven time and again to be so unbelievably gullible that it works. Wouldn't you question a news source that continually tells you that every last thing Obama has ever done is bad? I mean, you would think that once in seven years they might say, "hey not really an Obama guy but I'll give him credit for this one thing he did..." But instead, they do things like cherry pick a few economic indicators that are down and never once mention that the Dow has doubled. Ok, what should we give him credit for - name that one great accomplishment that will make America great? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Wouldn't you question a news source that continually tells you that every last thing Obama has ever done is bad? I would, just like I would a news source that tore apart GWB for 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 This is why I can't really dig PPP. It seems as if most people are fairly reasonable/examine both sides of issues but there's just too many of these brainwashed/clearly get every bit of their news from you know where types on here. There are far less of those sorts than than you may realize down here in the dungeon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Ok, what should we give him credit for - name that one great accomplishment that will make America great? The motor industry, the economy in general (it's not perfect but if it was where it's at under Mitt Romney, you really think Sean Hannity would be nitpicking a few economic indicators and instead pointing out the good ones??), Bin Laden, the health care act (not perfect either but something needed to be done and it was a good first step in the right direction), a restoration of professionalism and complete sentences to the position... Edited November 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) a restoration of professionalism Curious to find out from whence this "professionalism" comes...His ever-so-adept handling of foreign affairs? How about his adding 8 trillion dollars to the debt? Maybe it's in his healthcare reform package, costing $2 trillion, which hasn't helped half the people he advertised it would? Maybe it's in his transparency. Help me out here, I'm really struggling. Edited November 5, 2015 by joesixpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) I would, just like I would a news source that tore apart GWB for 8 years. I agree with you. The difference is that the left has, what, MSNBC? Look at its ratings. It is largely not an influential news outlet. Fox News on the other hand- I think we'd both agree its influence is dangerously far-reaching. Every other major media outlet there is has been critical of Obama and given Bush credit where credit was due. In fact, even MSNBC praised Bush for a lot of the work he did in Africa. Edited November 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 I agree with you. The difference is that the left has, what, MSNBC? Look at its ratings. It is largely not an influential news outlet. Fox News on the other hand. I think we'd both agree its influence is dangerously far-reaching. Every other major media outlet there is has been critical of Obama and given Bush credit where credit was due. In fact, even MSNBC praised Bush for a lot of the work he did in Africa. Uh-oh. This will be interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Uh-oh. This will be interesting... Are you insinuating that this is where the masses will come out and insist that CNN, for example, is every bit as "left" as Fox News is right? I will not engage with anyone who actually believes that. So you can put your popcorn away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) The motor industry, the economy in general (it's not perfect but if it was where it's at under Mitt Romney, you really think Sean Hannity would be nitpicking a few economic indicators??), Bin Laden, the health care act (not perfect either but something needed to be done and it was a good first step in the right direction), a restoration of professionalism and complete sentences to the position... The problem, again, is that you're allowing the preconceived SoProg mentality to rule your thinking. Let's start small: would you agree, generally, that one of the problems with this country's economy is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer? Edited November 5, 2015 by LABillzFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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