Credit where credit is due (Whaley)

[Kelly the Dog]

Agreed. But it wasn't Brandon.

 

 

 

 

 

Also agreed. They are in lock-step, for the most part. Whoever accused Whaely of "going rogue" wasn't high in the management chain.

 

Do we know that? I kind of thought it could have been Brandon.

[The Dean]

I think Whaley has done a tremendous job and I hope he's the Bills GM for a long, long time.

 

Until he screws up!!!

 

Do we know that? I kind of thought it could have been Brandon.

 

My sources (good, but not quite what they used to be) say it definitely wasn't Brandon. He has no interest in running the football side. I believe they are right on this one.

 

My guess has always been an assistant coach of or another minor FO type.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Until he screws up!!!

 

 

My sources (good, but not quite what they used to be) say it definitely wasn't Brandon. He has no interest in running the football side. I believe they are right on this one.

 

My guess has always been an assistant coach of or another minor FO type.

No interest in running the football side in this instance, to me, has nothing to do with it. It wasnt at all a football issue it was a "i'm important enough to be given the word early" issue. That's why I thought it was Brandon. I don't think it had anything to do with the guy wanted a say in whether or not Fred should be kept.

 

That said, your sources have always been pretty accurate so there isn't a good reason to not believe them. If they said it because they thought that it couldnt be Brandon because he doesnt want a say, then I don't think that may apply. Thanks though. And it's not that I have strong reason to believe it's Brandon, other than the way TGraham acted.

[The Dean]

No interest in running the football side in this instance, to me, has nothing to do with it. It wasnt at all a football issue it was a "i'm important enough to be given the word early" issue. That's why I thought it was Brandon. I don't think it had anything to do with the guy wanted a say in whether or not Fred should be kept.

 

That said, your sources have always been pretty accurate so there isn't a good reason to not believe them. If they said it because they thought that it couldnt be Brandon because he doesnt want a say, then I don't think that may apply. Thanks though. And it's not that I have strong reason to believe it's Brandon, other than the way TGraham acted.

 

 

All fair enough. I have no actual proof it wasn't him. But I also think if Whaley discussed it with Pegula and Rex, Brandon probably knew about it before it was announced, too. These guys are in regular conversation. It's hard for me to believe this all happened that so quickly (talking to Rex and Pegula for example) that there wasn't time for Brandon to know. IMO it had to be someone further down the pipeline.

[eball]

Totally agree and this is a really good post John. Marrone is a good football coach IMO (just an insecure individual). His team was prepared and played a physical style. His personality was his problem.

Dick Jauron is a good football coach. Chan Gailey is a good football coach. They were bad head coaches. Marrone did less than he should have with the roster he had.

[Solomon Grundy]

Marone has taken a lot of criticism for the way he left the organization. I have no problem with his inglorious departure via the buyout clasue that was permissable within his contract. Marone didn't agree with a lot of what Whaley was doing regarding personnel. He had a different vision on how to build a roster. One way to look at the situation is that instead of contending with the conflict that existed and would continue to exist he left by his own volition.

 

There is no doubt that DM was acting in his own perceived interest. But he acted in the organization's interest (intentional or not) by not wanting to be in a situation he didn't want to be in. Is Rex a better HC than Marrone? That isn't the right question. He is a better HC for this organization than DM was because of his willingness to work with the staff instead of in conflict with the staff.

 

No HC and GM are going to agree on everything. They have different perspectives on their roles that can't always be reconciled. However, Rex knows how to work through conflicts and disagreement where because of his stubborn and inflexible personality DM wasn't able to manage differences of opinions.

 

ONE BUFFALO!!!

Totally agree and this is a really good post John. Marrone is a good football coach IMO (just an insecure individual). His team was prepared and played a physical style. His personality was his problem.

Maybe a good "football" coach, but a turrible(Barkley voice) "head coach"!! As a HC, he needed to be a leader of men. He was not so good at that. Edited October 2, 2015 by the skycap

[eball]

ONE BUFFALO!!!

Maybe a good "football" coach, but a turrible(Barkley voice) "head coach"!! As a HC, he needed to be a leader of men. He was not so good at that.

 

You know what Marrone is? A Tom Coughlin wannabe, without the ability to inspire others to follow.

 

The Doug-house, Saint Doug, all of that nonsense -- you never hear that crap about Coughlin even though his reputation is as a disciplinarian and stickler for procedure.

[JohnC]

ONE BUFFALO!!!

Maybe a good "football" coach, but a turrible(Barkley voice) "head coach"!! As a HC, he needed to be a leader of men. He was not so good at that.

No one has categorized DM as an exceptional HC. And no one has categorized Rex Ryan as an upper tier HC either. Rex was fired from his last job while DM left on his own accord. Did Doug Marrone have flaws? Absolutely. A great deal of his problems stem from his stern personality.

 

A lot of people viscerally react when the topic of DM arises because of his decision to leave the organization. What is there to complain about? He did what he felt was right for him and his family and the outcome worked out well for the organization.

 

While many people try to portray his departure as an act of disloyalty I see it in a different light. He had a different vision on how to build a roster and evaluate talent from the GM. There were conflicts over the roster then and there would have be escalating conflicts down the road. He assessed his situation within the organization and then decided to leave. If one is not satisfied with the situation then it is more honorable to leave than to remain in a situation you are not comfortable with.

 

The Bills organization did not lose when he left. They turned the vacancy into an opportunity to find a HC who is a better fit for the organization and certainly for the GM. You don't think that Whaley was relieved that he didn't have to deal with the cantankerous DM any longer?

 

There are many harsh critics of DM over the manner in which he handled the offense. He took a very conservative approach because he had little choice. The strength of the team was clearly its defense. His offense was so limited with incapable players that he felt that the best tactic to take was to do no harm and rely on the defense. Even for those who disagree with that boring approach it doesn't mean that it was an unreasonable approach to take.

 

The priority for Whaley this offseason was to bolster the offense by bringing in players such as Incognito, McCoy, Clay, Harvin, Cassel, TT and drafting players such as Miller and Williams. That certainly was a recognition that there was a talent deficit on offense that the former HC had to contend with.

 

While there are many harsh critics of DM I am not one of them. His won/lost record reflected the talent level, if not slightly better. What more can you ask for?

[zow2]

Whaley has hit some of these recent draft picks out of the park (not to mention other signings like Incognito, Percy, etc,,). He's the man. Doesn't need to apologize for any of his past moves as far as I'm concerned...

[May Day 10]

We will see what happens when this team is pressing the cap and how assets are managed in transition. Thats a new ball of wax...

 

 

 

 

But I would have to say that Whaley has done a superb job stocking this team. Nix primed the tank a bit, but Whaley has hit on a lot of great picks and moves. No matter what happens, I will always defend the Watkins deal as well. That other 1st round pick was at a position where there was no impact player to be had. Cameron Erving was taken by the Browns (a G). Whaley turned around and drafted Darby at #50 which more than makes up for it. No 1st round pick this year and he goes and gets 3 starters on a talented team. Are you kidding me? *Also acknowledge the entire NCAA scouting team under Whaley)

 

Whaley has been able to find gems throughout the draft. Missed on a few trades, but sending low picks for known commodities that have upside and value like Bryce Brown and Cassel arent bad moves at all

 

Preston Brown. Good god.

 

I also really like the Charles Clay move. Have a TE like that is critical in the current NFL (the NFL that Greg Roman has brought us into). Watching him play, Clay is a freak. Also sniped him from a Division rival.

Edited October 2, 2015 by May Day 10

[eball]

No one has categorized DM as an exceptional HC. And no one has categorized Rex Ryan as an upper tier HC either. Rex was fired from his last job while DM left on his own accord. Did Doug Marrone have flaws? Absolutely. A great deal of his problems stem from his stern personality.

 

A lot of people viscerally react when the topic of DM arises because of his decision to leave the organization. What is there to complain about? He did what he felt was right for him and his family and the outcome worked out well for the organization.

 

While many people try to portray his departure as an act of disloyalty I see it in a different light. He had a different vision on how to build a roster and evaluate talent from the GM. There were conflicts over the roster then and there would have be escalating conflicts down the road. He assessed his situation within the organization and then decided to leave. If one is not satisfied with the situation then it is more honorable to leave than to remain in a situation you are not comfortable with.

 

The Bills organization did not lose when he left. They turned the vacancy into an opportunity to find a HC who is a better fit for the organization and certainly for the GM. You don't think that Whaley was relieved that he didn't have to deal with the cantankerous DM any longer?

 

There are many harsh critics of DM over the manner in which he handled the offense. He took a very conservative approach because he had little choice. The strength of the team was clearly its defense. His offense was so limited with incapable players that he felt that the best tactic to take was to do no harm and rely on the defense. Even for those who disagree with that boring approach it doesn't mean that it was an unreasonable approach to take.

 

The priority for Whaley this offseason was to bolster the offense by bringing in players such as Incognito, McCoy, Clay, Harvin, Cassel, TT and drafting players such as Miller and Williams. That certainly was a recognition that there was a talent deficit on offense that the former HC had to contend with.

 

While there are many harsh critics of DM I am not one of them. His won/lost record reflected the talent level, if not slightly better. What more can you ask for?

 

Honor, schmonor. He took the easy way out with a $4M escape clause when his power play with Pegula didn't work. The guy is a schmo; it amazes me that anyone would defend him around here -- particularly the way he wrecked the offense.

[stony]

No interest in running the football side in this instance, to me, has nothing to do with it. It wasnt at all a football issue it was a "i'm important enough to be given the word early" issue. That's why I thought it was Brandon. I don't think it had anything to do with the guy wanted a say in whether or not Fred should be kept.

 

That said, your sources have always been pretty accurate so there isn't a good reason to not believe them. If they said it because they thought that it couldnt be Brandon because he doesnt want a say, then I don't think that may apply. Thanks though. And it's not that I have strong reason to believe it's Brandon, other than the way TGraham acted.

Not that this really matters, but it certainly seemed like the chasm last year clearly had DM on one side, and Russ and Whaley on the other.

[BillsVet]

The statement Roman made regarding Cassel's trade was very ambiguous. It's strange that after David Lee praised Cassel's presence in meetings, the team traded their backup QB (and only experienced veteran) for future a 2017 draft pick. It didn't seem like the coaching staff and front office were in lock step on that one.

 

As for Marrone, reports indicated he (perhaps abruptly) departed the draft room when Buffalo decided to move up in the 2014 draft to take Watkins.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12118625/doug-marrone-did-not-approve-sammy-watkins-draft-day-trade-buffalo-bills

 

Marrone wasn't a good coach and notably didn't hire good offensive assistants. But his GM also didn't identify a QB who was ready to play, and only found an acceptable option late in the 2014 training camp. And I doubt the Bills sign Taylor in free agency if Rex isn't HC because, as we learned in the off-season, Whaley was selling Manuel to prospective HC candidates.

[John from Riverside]

The statement Roman made regarding Cassel's trade was very ambiguous. It's strange that after David Lee praised Cassel's presence in meetings, the team traded their backup QB (and only experienced veteran) for future a 2017 draft pick. It didn't seem like the coaching staff and front office were in lock step on that one.

 

As for Marrone, reports indicated he (perhaps abruptly) departed the draft room when Buffalo decided to move up in the 2014 draft to take Watkins.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12118625/doug-marrone-did-not-approve-sammy-watkins-draft-day-trade-buffalo-bills

 

Marrone wasn't a good coach and notably didn't hire good offensive assistants. But his GM also didn't identify a QB who was ready to play, and only found an acceptable option late in the 2014 training camp. And I doubt the Bills sign Taylor in free agency if Rex isn't HC because, as we learned in the off-season, Whaley was selling Manuel to prospective HC candidates.

Sometimes its the things that dont go right that can lead you down a different path to the correct one......

 

Here we sit....2-1....with excellent QB play......a leader in the NFL in several catagories including points and QB productivity.....and just split with the two teams that played in the AFC Championship last year.

Edited October 2, 2015 by John from Hemet

[Nihilarian]

The statement Roman made regarding Cassel's trade was very ambiguous. It's strange that after David Lee praised Cassel's presence in meetings, the team traded their backup QB (and only experienced veteran) for future a 2017 draft pick. It didn't seem like the coaching staff and front office were in lock step on that one.

 

As for Marrone, reports indicated he (perhaps abruptly) departed the draft room when Buffalo decided to move up in the 2014 draft to take Watkins.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12118625/doug-marrone-did-not-approve-sammy-watkins-draft-day-trade-buffalo-bills

 

Marrone wasn't a good coach and notably didn't hire good offensive assistants. But his GM also didn't identify a QB who was ready to play, and only found an acceptable option late in the 2014 training camp. And I doubt the Bills sign Taylor in free agency if Rex isn't HC because, as we learned in the off-season, Whaley was selling Manuel to prospective HC candidates.

I don't look at the trading away of Matt Cassell as a big loss simply because he doesn't fit in Greg Romans offense this year. Why you ask? Because I think his statuesque ass would get killed playing solely from the pocket, as the line is not that good just yet.

 

Whaley was a rookie GM when he took the job in Buffalo, and he has had his share of mistakes since he started no question. But, lets not forget who was guiding him throughout the process.

 

Buddy Nix was even on the staff as a consultant up until late last year, and I have to think some of the zany things that transpired over that period in time Nix is partially responsible for having a hand in. Whaley was probably also taking advice from the CEO who was also the acting GM for a period of time after Marv Levy stepped down.

 

To me its a huge difference in signing OG Chris Williams, allowing Pears to switch from RT to RG at his height and inability to get low. The thinking that OG Colin Brown, David Snow or Doug Legursky, could take Andy Levitres position no problem. The trades for RB Bryce Brown, and WR Mike Williams.

 

But then this year with Doug Whaley on his own he knocked it out of the park with the trade for LeSean McCoy for Kiko Alonso. The acquisitions of Charles Clay from Miami. The signing of Percy Harvin, Tyrod Taylor and Richie Incognito. The drafting of John Miller, Ron Darby, Karlos Williams. Then the fact that Whaley attempted to sign OT Brian Bulaga away from the Packers, and Jahri Evans away from the Saints tells me he is no longer thinking anything like Buddy Nix used to do. The man recognized the weakest areas of the team, and tried to shore them up with top talent.

 

 

Clearly Doug Whaley is learning as he goes, and getting better at his job every year! The end result is a very competitive team in the AFC East!

[JohnC]

 

Honor, schmonor. He took the easy way out with a $4M escape clause when his power play with Pegula didn't work. The guy is a schmo; it amazes me that anyone would defend him around here -- particularly the way he wrecked the offense.

How can you wreck the offense when you don't have an offense? He had the worst OL in the league and he had a second-rate backup qb who joined the team out of shape because he didn't work out intending to retire.

 

What is wrong with exercising an option that he had in his contract? Players, coaches, front office staff certainly do the same thing. He was a back door candidate for the University of Michigan job. He was willing to take the risk of leaving a HC job because he was determined to leave the situation he was in. There is nothing unusual with someone taking a job and then realizing that he wasn't happy with the job for a variety of reasons.

 

If someone doesn't want to be with the organization for whatever reason then leaving is the right thing to do. He can establish whatever conditions he wants to push. If the bosses say no then it is no.

 

If you find him to be so distateful as a HC and person then you should be celebrating that he left instead of criticizing that he left. As I said in another post he did the organization a favor with his departure because the franchise was able to find a better organizational fit.

[ToGoGo]

How can you wreck the offense when you don't have an offense? He had the worst OL in the league and he had a second-rate backup qb who joined the team out of shape because he didn't work out intending to retire.

 

What is wrong with exercising an option that he had in his contract? Players, coaches, front office staff certainly do the same thing. He was a back door candidate for the University of Michigan job. He was willing to take the risk of leaving a HC job because he was determined to leave the situation he was in. There is nothing unusual with someone taking a job and then realizing that he wasn't happy with the job for a variety of reasons.

 

If someone doesn't want to be with the organization for whatever reason then leaving is the right thing to do. He can establish whatever conditions he wants to push. If the bosses say no then it is no.

 

If you find him to be so distateful as a HC and person then you should be celebrating that he left instead of criticizing that he left. As I said in another post he did the organization a favor with his departure because the franchise was able to find a better organizational fit.

 

Don't forget Jackson and Spiller were injured for half the year. It was remarkable that we finished 9-7.

 

Fans didn't like Marrone so they gave all the credit to Schwarz and the defense. True they did great, but for some reason it became "fact" around here that they did well despite Marrone. It's pretty obvious things like that bothered him. Imagine working your ass off, dealing with cancer, and turning around a vicious losing culture and then being hated by the fanbase that only gives some other guy credit. I would leave too. It's downright savvy he took $5M doing something he wanted to do.

 

Fans keep kicking him because they feel abandoned. He left on his terms and that bothers many fans. There's some sort of deep insecurity he touched and that's why everybody is so butt-hurt even though he's the one with $5M in the bank coaching in FL. By the way, the Jaguars look improved. How about that.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Don't forget Jackson and Spiller were injured for half the year. It was remarkable that we finished 9-7.

 

Fans didn't like Marrone so they gave all the credit to Schwarz and the defense. True they did great, but for some reason it became "fact" around here that they did well despite Marrone. It's pretty obvious things like that bothered him. Imagine working your ass off, dealing with cancer, and turning around a vicious losing culture and then being hated by the fanbase that only gives some other guy credit. I would leave too. It's downright savvy he took $5M doing something he wanted to do.

 

Fans keep kicking him because they feel abandoned. He left on his terms and that bothers many fans. There's some sort of deep insecurity he touched and that's why everybody is so butt-hurt even though he's the one with $5M in the bank coaching in FL. By the way, the Jaguars look improved. How about that.

I was badmouthing hi for what he did to the offense for half the season, as were a lot of fellow posters here. It wasn't because of how he left, we were thrilled he left for any reason. Many people here were highly critical of how he handled the offense last year as it was happening, not in retrospect.

[JohnC]

 

Don't forget Jackson and Spiller were injured for half the year. It was remarkable that we finished 9-7.

 

Fans didn't like Marrone so they gave all the credit to Schwarz and the defense. True they did great, but for some reason it became "fact" around here that they did well despite Marrone. It's pretty obvious things like that bothered him. Imagine working your ass off, dealing with cancer, and turning around a vicious losing culture and then being hated by the fanbase that only gives some other guy credit. I would leave too. It's downright savvy he took $5M doing something he wanted to do.

 

Fans keep kicking him because they feel abandoned. He left on his terms and that bothers many fans. There's some sort of deep insecurity he touched and that's why everybody is so butt-hurt even though he's the one with $5M in the bank coaching in FL. By the way, the Jaguars look improved. How about that.

Excellent post and excellent insight.

 

On the one hand his critics disparage his competency and then on the other hand they complain that he decided to leave a situation that he didn't want to be in. As you wisely put it they didn't like him while he was here and they like him even less for leaving. What's the definition of irony or is it paradox????

[Maury Ballstein]

Excellent post and excellent insight.

 

On the one hand his critics disparage his competency and then on the other hand they complain that he decided to leave a situation that he didn't want to be in. As you wisely put it they didn't like him while he was here and they like him even less for leaving. What's the definition of irony or is it paradox????

Bring out the punt team. No one cares that he's gone.

 

The team would be in a worse place if he stayed.