Kelly the Dog Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 In fairness to John and HOF the "the judge didn't rule on whether they cheated" is a nonsensical argument and entirely misunderstands law. A judge has no jurisdiction to rule on whether the Patriots cheated. That isn't a point of law. Judges rule on points of law. Whether the Patriots and particularly Tom Brady cheated or not is for the NFL disciplinary process to rule on. Any sports league is entitled to set up its own disciplinary process in order to preside over matter pertaining to that league and its players. The only legal requirements is that the process is lawful, clearly expressed and then followed to the letter. The judge ruled that the NFL did not follow its own due process as set out in its own rules. That is a point of law. On that basis the ruling of the NFL disciplinary committee is quashed because it was made without due process making it unlawful. That does not mean that the judge doesn't think the Patriots cheated... frankly he doesn't need to care whether they cheated. He just needs to care about whether the disciplinary process was lawfully exercised. Essentially there is now no substantive finding of guilt against Tom Brady and for that reason those who believe in his innocence are totally justified in doing so. What I will say, however, is that just because the NFL overstepped its own powers in respect of the process under which Brady was disciplined does not mean that he is not guilty of cheating. The two issues are separate. So whether Brady did it or not remains unresolved..... but it is not accurate to pretend that the NFL's judgement that he did still remains in place because that judgment was reached unlawfully. Of course. And everyone here knows that. JohnC, however, is the one equating what the judge ruled on equating to Brady's innocence because of how he ruled. Which is nonsense. Which is why people jumped on him.
GunnerBill Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Of course. And everyone here knows that. JohnC, however, is the one equating what the judge ruled on equating to Brady's innocence because of how he ruled. Which is nonsense. Which is why people jumped on him. Fair enough... I only read the last few posts. Apologise if I was repeating what had already been said.
Dibs Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Fair enough... I only read the last few posts. Apologise if I was repeating what had already been said. I think KTD's "everybody knows that" line was directed not to yourself, but to the posters here who seem to be ignoring the information you gave. I think his start line of "Of course" showed that he was very happy that you posted what you did. I personally enjoy your thoughts....no need to appologize for them IMO.
Ralonzo Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Know who else were overly smug and arrogant? The Ceaucescus.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 I think KTD's "everybody knows that" line was directed not to yourself, but to the posters here who seem to be ignoring the information you gave. I think his start line of "Of course" showed that he was very happy that you posted what you did. I personally enjoy your thoughts....no need to appologize for them IMO. Yes and yes.
4merper4mer Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 I'm not really involved in the discussion about the judge's decision (I haven't fully read the comments in this thread regarding that). I believe that the Patriots cheated, I just don't think it's a big deal. Spy Gate was, Deflate-gate isn't. Do you have list of rules that are ok to break and those which are not ok to break? Can you share this before the Pats* cheat again?
BustaTimes Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 The fact that we suffered miserably for the last decade because the Patriots had an unfair advantage is infuriating. The fact that Goodell covered it up is inexcusable. A criminal investigation is warranted.
JohnC Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) here is the title of the thread Pats are ruining love of NFL Thats whay the Pats are sapping the joy out of watching games...this is not pro wrassling...if people are convinced they cheat, it takes away the joy and fun of competition on an even playing field If the Pats are sapping the joy out of watching games then find another activity to enjoy that doesn't irritate you so much. Go outside and enjoy the pleasant fall weather instead of being burdened by the great injustices imposed on mankind. Simple solution for such a traumatizing problem. Edited September 12, 2015 by JohnC
machine gun kelly Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 The funny thing about the whole jealousy thing is.. I actively like some of the other successful teams of the last 15 years... Steelers, Ravens, Seahawks, Packers, Giants... they are all fun teams to watch, and don't seem nearly as shady on a whole. None of them are in our division, so one could argue it's that... but I dunno. You're so right. I'd add to that the Bucs, Colts, and so on. I just freakin hate the Pats! I rooted for the Cardinals when they made it to the SB. This has to be the year they miss the playoffs. The Fish are better on paper and so are we.
Maury Ballstein Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) Look at the skeletons in your own team's closet first..... JIm Kelly Bruce Smith Thurman Thomas Enough right there? What is irrelevant for 200 Alex. Must go against mainstream and fight the power!! (And the evidence). Fight that fight ! Edited September 12, 2015 by Ryan L Billz
Dr. Who Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 If and when the Buffalo Bills crush the Pats**** and knock the stuffing out of Tom Brady, I predict they become America's favorite team.
MattM Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 If the Pats are sapping the joy out of watching games then find another activity to enjoy that doesn't irritate you so much. Go outside and enjoy the pleasant fall weather instead of being burdened by the great injustices imposed on mankind. Simple solution for such a traumatizing problem. How 'bout the Pats* just stop cheating? Isn't that a simpler (and fairer) solution, rather than forcing millions of (innocent) people League-wide to turn away from a sport they love? I've said this for a while now. At some point, when the full truth comes out the Kraft/Belichick/Brady Patriots* will be as beloved as the Chicago BlackSox. Each scandal moves that closer and if history is any guide, we'll get another data point (to go with the many, many others) on that journey very, very soon.....
JohnC Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Of course. And everyone here knows that. JohnC, however, is the one equating what the judge ruled on equating to Brady's innocence because of how he ruled. Which is nonsense. Which is why people jumped on him. You are distorting the position I have made. With respect to what Brady did or didn't do after the judge's ruling it is now a dead issue. The stupendously incompetent Roger Goodell in his weird wisdom decided to appeal this decisive ruling against him. In another year or two the next level of appellate judges will again formerly rebuff him. You believe that Brady was involved in ordering the balls to be inflated below the permissable level. I don't. It's as simple as that. You believe that the inflation levels affected performances and influenced the outcome of the game. I don't. The judge snickered at that notion in court by pointing out that Brady performed better when the balls were at a higher inflation level. You repeatedly stress that he hasn't proved that he is not guilty. I say that he doesn't have to. That's not how things work. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything. My position on this manufactured issue has been the same from day one to the end of the line. You continue to let this ludicrous issue consume you as if it is a moral crusade. It's not. As I said in the prior post if you believe that Brady was involved in a transgression that reaches to the level of an immoral act against mankind then go ahead and continue to believe it. You are entitled to your beliefs; you are entitled to your zealotry. How 'bout the Pats* just stop cheating? Isn't that a simpler (and fairer) solution, rather than forcing millions of (innocent) people League-wide to turn away from a sport they love? All through these extended discussions on this topic I have tried to be respectful. But when it gets to the point that Bills' fans start actually believing that they are "victims" in this fiasco then it has gotten into the realm of the theatre of the absurd. What more can I say?
Dr. Who Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 You are distorting the position I have made. With respect to what Brady did or didn't do after the judge's ruling it is now a dead issue. The stupendously incompetent Roger Goodell in his weird wisdom decided to appeal this decisive ruling against him. In another year or two the next level of appellate judges will again formerly rebuff him. You believe that Brady was involved in ordering the balls to be inflated below the permissable level. I don't. It's as simple as that. You believe that the inflation levels affected performances and influenced the outcome of the game. I don't. The judge snickered at that notion in court by pointing out that Brady performed better when the balls were at a higher inflation level. You repeatedly stress that he hasn't proved that he is not guilty. I say that he doesn't have to. That's not how things work. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything. My position on this manufactured issue has been the same from day one to the end of the line. You continue to let this ludicrous issue consume you as if it is a moral crusade. It's not. As I said in the prior post if you believe that Brady was involved in a transgression that reaches to the level of an immoral act against mankind then go ahead and continue to believe it. You are entitled to your beliefs; you are entitled to your zealotry. I guess you are equally entitled to priggish smugness and hyperbole. I suppose the widespread belief that the Pats**** cheat and get more calls is just confirmation bias. Oh well, we all have crosses to bear.
4merper4mer Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 You believe that Brady was involved in ordering the balls to be inflated below the permissable level. I don't. It's as simple as that. Y This guy wants to be your new avatar:
Matt in KC Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 You are distorting the position I have made. With respect to what Brady did or didn't do after the judge's ruling it is now a dead issue. The stupendously incompetent Roger Goodell in his weird wisdom decided to appeal this decisive ruling against him. In another year or two the next level of appellate judges will again formerly rebuff him. You believe that Brady was involved in ordering the balls to be inflated below the permissable level. I don't. It's as simple as that. You believe that the inflation levels affected performances and influenced the outcome of the game. I don't. The judge snickered at that notion in court by pointing out that Brady performed better when the balls were at a higher inflation level. You repeatedly stress that he hasn't proved that he is not guilty. I say that he doesn't have to. That's not how things work. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything. My position on this manufactured issue has been the same from day one to the end of the line. You continue to let this ludicrous issue consume you as if it is a moral crusade. It's not. As I said in the prior post if you believe that Brady was involved in a transgression that reaches to the level of an immoral act against mankind then go ahead and continue to believe it. You are entitled to your beliefs; you are entitled to your zealotry. All through these extended discussions on this topic I have tried to be respectful. But when it gets to the point that Bills' fans start actually believing that they are "victims" in this fiasco then it has gotten into the realm of the theatre of the absurd. What more can I say? You really think that after all the work to get the balls just right, and the texts discussing Tom, deflation, the pay-offs, his call history and non-compliance it is more likely than not that Tom wasn't involved or rewarded McNally for his actions? Wow. I can see an argument that Brady got off due to sloppy prosecution. But I don't get thinking he wasn't at all involved. Clearly something happened. I am also surprised the ruling went against the League. I wouldn't think execution of discipline would need to be perfect to stand. At very least I think the League has Brady dead-to-rights for non-compliance. How he got off with less punishment than a coach criticizing a call in a post-game press conference is beyond me.
Maury Ballstein Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 You are distorting the position I have made. With respect to what Brady did or didn't do after the judge's ruling it is now a dead issue. The stupendously incompetent Roger Goodell in his weird wisdom decided to appeal this decisive ruling against him. In another year or two the next level of appellate judges will again formerly rebuff him. You believe that Brady was involved in ordering the balls to be inflated below the permissable level. I don't. It's as simple as that. You believe that the inflation levels affected performances and influenced the outcome of the game. I don't. The judge snickered at that notion in court by pointing out that Brady performed better when the balls were at a higher inflation level. You repeatedly stress that he hasn't proved that he is not guilty. I say that he doesn't have to. That's not how things work. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything. My position on this manufactured issue has been the same from day one to the end of the line. You continue to let this ludicrous issue consume you as if it is a moral crusade. It's not. As I said in the prior post if you believe that Brady was involved in a transgression that reaches to the level of an immoral act against mankind then go ahead and continue to believe it. You are entitled to your beliefs; you are entitled to your zealotry. Ted wells doesn't write fiction.
MattM Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 You are distorting the position I have made. With respect to what Brady did or didn't do after the judge's ruling it is now a dead issue. The stupendously incompetent Roger Goodell in his weird wisdom decided to appeal this decisive ruling against him. In another year or two the next level of appellate judges will again formerly rebuff him. You believe that Brady was involved in ordering the balls to be inflated below the permissable level. I don't. It's as simple as that. You believe that the inflation levels affected performances and influenced the outcome of the game. I don't. The judge snickered at that notion in court by pointing out that Brady performed better when the balls were at a higher inflation level. You repeatedly stress that he hasn't proved that he is not guilty. I say that he doesn't have to. That's not how things work. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything. My position on this manufactured issue has been the same from day one to the end of the line. You continue to let this ludicrous issue consume you as if it is a moral crusade. It's not. As I said in the prior post if you believe that Brady was involved in a transgression that reaches to the level of an immoral act against mankind then go ahead and continue to believe it. You are entitled to your beliefs; you are entitled to your zealotry. All through these extended discussions on this topic I have tried to be respectful. But when it gets to the point that Bills' fans start actually believing that they are "victims" in this fiasco then it has gotten into the realm of the theatre of the absurd. What more can I say? . By definition, John, when someone cheats there is a "victim" of that cheating. In this case, it's both the team being cheated and its fans and the rest of the League to boot. That's just how cheating works. By definition it's not a so-called "victimless crime". Is it the root cause of all evils? Of course not--no one is claiming it is (except perhaps your straw man complex).
Kelly the Dog Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 You are distorting the position I have made. With respect to what Brady did or didn't do after the judge's ruling it is now a dead issue. The stupendously incompetent Roger Goodell in his weird wisdom decided to appeal this decisive ruling against him. In another year or two the next level of appellate judges will again formerly rebuff him. You believe that Brady was involved in ordering the balls to be inflated below the permissable level. I don't. It's as simple as that. You believe that the inflation levels affected performances and influenced the outcome of the game. I don't. The judge snickered at that notion in court by pointing out that Brady performed better when the balls were at a higher inflation level. You repeatedly stress that he hasn't proved that he is not guilty. I say that he doesn't have to. That's not how things work. He hasn't been proven guilty of anything. My position on this manufactured issue has been the same from day one to the end of the line. You continue to let this ludicrous issue consume you as if it is a moral crusade. It's not. As I said in the prior post if you believe that Brady was involved in a transgression that reaches to the level of an immoral act against mankind then go ahead and continue to believe it. You are entitled to your beliefs; you are entitled to your zealotry. All through these extended discussions on this topic I have tried to be respectful. But when it gets to the point that Bills' fans start actually believing that they are "victims" in this fiasco then it has gotten into the realm of the theatre of the absurd. What more can I say? I have repeatedly said I don't believe it affected games or the outcome. I just don't condone cheating and stealing and lying and cover ups. Apparently you do. Unless of course you believe that Jastremski and McNally did it on their own. And that Brady didn't know who McNally was even though McNally testified "Tom told me to..." In which case I really feel sorry for your brain.
JohnC Posted September 12, 2015 Posted September 12, 2015 Ted wells doesn't write fiction. What Ted Wells does very well is create billable hours. He wrote a report that the judge basically mocked. He didn't care how it was perceived because he made millions of $$$ on a report that the judge deemed to lack credibility because it was authored by someone who had an obvious conflict of interest and whose product was flimsy in substance. The judge point blank asked Ted Wells if he had direct evidence that Tom Brady was involved with the ball tampering. Ted Wells said no. I have repeatedly said I don't believe it affected games or the outcome. I just don't condone cheating and stealing and lying and cover ups. Apparently you do. Unless of course you believe that Jastremski and McNally did it on their own. And that Brady didn't know who McNally was even though McNally testified "Tom told me to..." In which case I really feel sorry for your brain. The judge made his ruling. It is time put an end to your moral crusade. Believe what you want to believe. That's your choice. I have nothing more to add to this discussion. I'm moving on.
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