2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Is it really financially prudent to have the highest paid backup qb in the league at #3, or is it recklessly worried about the worst case scenario? I know you are bending over pretty far backwards to justify that it's not far out of line, but it is. Is there a scenario where you end up right? Sure. But I think it's very narrowly defined and very rare and that's why you don't see it despite your efforts to compare it to top end primary backups that are 1 play away. If the Bills did keep Cassel, where roughly would you think they rank in terms of total cap money devoted to the quarterback position? Edited September 5, 2015 by Aaron
JM57 Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 If the Bills did keep Cassel, where roughly would you think they rank in terms of total cap money devoted to the quarterback position? I'd bet they're dead last, if not bottom 5. Even with Cassel.
Doc Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Again, looking at Cassel's past 4 seasons, he's neither played well nor stayed healthy. If we're thinking that TT and EJ could possibly suck and get injured, why pay a guy $4.15M when for the past 4 seasons he's sucked and gotten injured? Also as someone said, if TT and EJ suck or get injured, I'd rather finish with a bad record and have a shot at a top QB prospect than have a middling record with Cassel.
NoSaint Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 If the Bills did keep Cassel, where roughly would you think they rank in terms of total cap money devoted to the quarterback position? Probably pretty low. Use our low paid starter as an advantage or burn it up with what I'd imagine is by far the highest paid backup qb situation though?
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 I know you are bending over pretty far backwards to justify that it's not far out of line, but it is. Is there a scenario where you end up right? Sure. But I think it's very narrowly defined and very rare and that's why you don't see it despite your efforts to compare it to top end primary backups that are 1 play away.Another thought on this, I have to respectfully disagree with your reason why you don't see it around the league. We have -one of the best rosters in the NFL top to bottom (ready to win) -a starting quarterback who is a complete unknown -a backup quarterback who is a complete unknown These decisions are not made in a vacuum. If Seantrel Henderson is a starting left tackle it decreases (but by no means eliminates) the value Cordy Glenn has to our team. Likewise, the circumstances above give Cassel value to the Buffalo Bills in particular.
Rob's House Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 I don't think you brought money into the equation with your question, you asked what a vet would bring. To answer your new question money is an issue and it plays a huge factor. Hopefully the Bills have already had talks with Cassel's people. "Listen, we'd like to keep Matt on, but, simply cannot at his current salary. Would a restructuring (paycut in this case, not simply moving $$$ from one year to another) be something you would consider? If not, we are in serious talks about cutting you (at the last possible instance). How would Meh respond to that? Don't know. He might be pissed, or he may thank his lucky stars that someone is willing to pay him $2M (pick your #) to hold a clipboard and be inactive on game days. If I were him I'd tell them to pound sand. Veteran QBs make good money, even if it's as a backup. And if they cut him he can go somewhere where the fans don't call him "Meh".
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Probably pretty low. Use our low paid starter as an advantage or burn it up with what I'd imagine is by far the highest paid backup qb situation though?The advantage is you get to have a QB who has done this before.
ToGoGo Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Probably pretty low. Use our low paid starter as an advantage or burn it up with what I'd imagine is by far the highest paid backup qb situation though? We're already using it as an advantage. Dropping Cassel would be closer to splitting hairs than burning up money. Do you not remember two years ago where Manuel and Lewis were injured and we had to start Tuel? Everybody was pissed at Marrone for not having good QB depth. Don't be cheap about somebody else's money. It's unclear if we even need that cap money to resign players. I just know with how the world works that if we cut Cassel, we'll be sorry we did at some point during the season.
mannc Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 I keep hearing that 4.5 million is too much to pay a 3rd string QB. Sure, that is conventional wisdom, but what if your starting QB is making 750K and you backup only makes 2.2M? 4.5 million is a crazy amount to pay the 3rd string QB if you have an established veteran QB. But this team is only two years removed from a season that featured two appearances from Jeff Tuel. We don't know - and we won't know for a little while whether Tyrod Taylor is the type of guy who is banged up after every game (Vick, Griffin) or the type of guy that is so nimble and aware that nobody ever hits him solidly (Flutie, Wilson). 4.5 million is expensive insurance but it is worth it in this case. If we are carrying extra cap weight it certainly isn't at this position as a whole. Excellent point. A little perspective is needed. If Cassel is kept, we will have a whopping $7 million tied up at the QB position, probably less than any team in the league. Cheap but above average QB play has been the Seahawks' ticket to the Super Bowl. Why not us?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Again, looking at Cassel's past 4 seasons, he's neither played well nor stayed healthy. If we're thinking that TT and EJ could possibly suck and get injured, why pay a guy $4.15M when for the past 4 seasons he's sucked and gotten injured? Also as someone said, if TT and EJ suck or get injured, I'd rather finish with a bad record and have a shot at a top QB prospect than have a middling record with Cassel. I don't agree that Cassel's past 4 seasons he's neither "played well nor stayed healthy". He was injured last season, true - it happens, and his injury wasn't something that is worrisome as a baseline (eg Hx of concussions). Prior to that he played pretty well backing up Ponder in the AP-centric, run heavy offense that he historically has run well in 2013, and played well at the start of 2014 until he lost AP just before playing New England (then he sucked, then he got injured). So I think the question "Why pay a guy $4.15M when he's sucked for the past 4 seasons and gotten injured?" is based upon a faulty premise. If you take the position that if TT and EJ suck, you'd rather tank the season and draft higher, then your argument makes sense and we should cut Cassel ASAP. The stated Bills position is that we intend to make the playoffs this year - not we intend to either win with TT or EJ, or suck and draft high. So the question the Bills would evaluate from, given their stated position, is are they a stronger team better positioned to meet their goals with Cassel, or without him?
NoSaint Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 If I were him I'd tell them to pound sand. Veteran QBs make good money, even if it's as a backup. And if they cut him he can go somewhere where the fans don't call him "Meh". He will literally be the highest paid in the league this year. As a free agent, he's likely making less.
GunnerBill Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 He will literally be the highest paid in the league this year. As a free agent, he's likely making less. Agreed. Probably about half of what we are paying him.
ToGoGo Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Excellent point. A little perspective is needed. If Cassel is kept, we will have a whopping $7 million tied up at the QB position, probably less than any team in the league. Cheap but above average QB play has been the Seahawks' ticket to the Super Bowl. Why not us? That's how I felt after the Steelers game when everybody immediately starting screaming "Cut Cassel". Where's the perspective? I feel like cutting him is the classic fool's move. He's boring, so let's cut him. Edited September 5, 2015 by musichunch
Estelle Getty Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 I agree with cutting Cassel Being a fools move. Why make yourself unnecessarily thin at positions. This is what we have done for the last 15 years. Keeping Cassel for the rest of the season has nothing to do with being able to pay Dareus next year.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 We have an "extra" roster spot because of Dareus suspension. The Bills could choose to hold on to MC through the cut down day as that extra player. Then on the 12th they cut him and promote someone from the practice squad, resign a player who cleared waivers or sign someone else's castoff. What would that accomplish? It would keep Meh off the market while teams are finalizing their rosters. He doesn't get picked up if he's cut that late. If he was picked up after the first game I think his salary isn't guaranteed? Is that harsh? Yup. Cutting Jackson was harsh to, but, it's business. You make all of this clear to Cassel when you're talking about a new contract. Let him decide. Any chance this plays out? This is something I haven't heard of before - can anyone point to a source or explain further? Is it really financially prudent to have the highest paid backup qb in the league at #3, or is it recklessly worried about the worst case scenario? I know you are bending over pretty far backwards to justify that it's not far out of line, but it is. Is there a scenario where you end up right? Sure. But I think it's very narrowly defined and very rare and that's why you don't see it despite your efforts to compare it to top end primary backups that are 1 play away. So if I'm understanding your point, what really sticks with you is that he might be "#3" and that moves the compensation from "on the high side for a good vet backup" to fiscally "reckless", have I got it? It isn't well-described as "bending over backwards" to factually report the salary other vet backups receive - but if I understand your rebuttal, the sticking point is that he'd be #3, and you feel it's a poor comparison between #3 and between #2, the guy who is "one play away". My unstated premise is that the Bills have rather a unique QB situation where both #1 and the putative #2 are relatively untested "dark horses" for a team with the stated goal of "Win Now", such that Cassel is more in the functional role of being "primary backup, one play away". We can certainly agree to disagree on that point. As for financially prudent vs reckless, what is the Bills spending on the QB position overall with and without Cassel?
nichebiche Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 (edited) Must we really turn every single thread into a debate about our qb situation? Edited September 5, 2015 by nichebiche
Pete Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 I agree with cutting Cassel Being a fools move. Why make yourself unnecessarily thin at positions. This is what we have done for the last 15 years. Keeping Cassel for the rest of the season has nothing to do with being able to pay Dareus next year. Yes it does. Money underneath cap can be carried over to next year I beleive. So we would gain $4.75 in cap room next season. We need to sign Bradham, Gilmore, and Glenn to and will need every penny to do so. Cutting Cassel is a no brainer IMO
ToGoGo Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 Must we really turn every single thread into a debate about our qb situation? We're talking about cuts, and Cassel as a potential cut. It's relevant to the thread. QB is the most important position in football, and the position we're unsettled in. When we find a QB, I assure you the intensity of the discussions will stop. Yes it does. Money underneath cap can be carried over to next year I beleive. So we would gain $4.75 in cap room next season. We need to sign Bradham, Gilmore, and Glenn to and will need every penny to do so. Cutting Cassel is a no brainer IMO It's not a "no brainer". In terms of cutting cap space it might be. Cutting Mario Williams tomorrow is a "no-brainer" when it comes to having enough to resign Dareus. But we wouldn't do that because there are other factors involved. That's what we're arguing.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 I would keep him even if he would not take a pay cut. He would provide insurance and possibly have some trade value if another team lost a qb or two.
GunnerBill Posted September 5, 2015 Posted September 5, 2015 It's not a "no brainer". In terms of cutting cap space it might be. Cutting Mario Williams tomorrow is a "no-brainer" when it comes to having enough to resign Dareus. But we wouldn't do that because there are other factors involved. That's what we're arguing. Cutting Mario is not the same as cutting a guy 3rd on a depth chart in a position where only 1 guy plays is it? If it frees up $4m dollars for next year give that all to Marcel next year pay him as much as the cap allows you next year which means you can spread future money at the point when we may with a bit of luck have a QB to pay.
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