Bills cuts - round 2

[PromoTheRobot]

I'll be there for seasons for the.... WOW 20th season. I'm ready to kick it in gear as long as they play more dominant than they did against stony brook. Leipold seems like a legit guy

UB needs a good football season to make up for the total implosion of the basketball team.

[CSBill]

Goodwin to New Orleans is what I would like to see. Indoor, Brees, etc. Perfect for him. That or Houston.

 

Goodwin has little trade value, he is too brittle, and I doubt Hogan does either. And teams know, if they're looking for a reciever one will be cut and then they can sign him. Not worth the risk of a draft pick. Personally, I think Hogan is the better keep. Goodwin is a one trick pony—run as fast and as far as you can. Hogan can do more.

[JohnC]

What type of insight do you picture him sharing that he otherwise wouldn't have access to?

Simply having an experienced colleague and peer standing by you and talking to you in the midst of a fast paced and chaotic game environment can be beneficial. An experienced backup with little ego and is genuinely supportive is a positive presence not only during games but also when preparing for games. Beerball's response in post #337 makes a lot of sense. There is an aspect to peer mentorship that coaching support can not match.

 

If Littman was still involved with the franchise Cassel would have been cut immediately after TT was announced as the starter. The old business model is a thing of the past.

[NoSaint]

What I see this...last time I...any of those first person words that can help bring a person clarity. Someone who offers advice and is a peer rather than a boss. It works in families, business, sport. Is there any place that it isn't used?

So is someone saying "I" worth starting pay for another position, both cash and cap, as well as a roster spot.... Or do you pay someone to be a consultant of sorts if you think no one in the coaching staff is qualified to offer him the type of mentoring that Matt cassel can (assuming that Matt cassel is both engaged after being bumped down the chart, and good at that to begin with)?

Simply having an experienced colleague and peer standing by you and talking to you in the midst of a fast paced and chaotic game environment can be beneficial. An experienced backup with little ego and is genuinely supportive is a positive presence not only during games but also when preparing for games. Beerball's response in post #337 makes a lot of sense. There is an aspect to peer mentorship that coaching support can not match.

 

If Littman was still involved with the franchise Cassel would have been cut immediately after TT was announced as the starter. The old business model is a thing of the past.

I think comparing cutting cassel to being a littman move is a bit cheap. I think we could find the 10 most aggressive spending GMs and not see that much at QB3 because they want to spend on players that will see the field. No ones saying sit on the cash, but instead free up the cap for better roster building. Edited September 5, 2015 by NoSaint

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Goodwin has little trade value, he is too brittle, and I doubt Hogan does either. And teams know, if they're looking for a reciever one will be cut and then they can sign him. Not worth the risk of a draft pick. Personally, I think Hogan is the better keep. Goodwin is a one trick pony—run as fast and as far as you can. Hogan can do more.

 

I think you're selling Goodwin a bit short. His route running looked much improved. His hands and his durability are still not what one would like.

 

The point stands that Goodwin has little trade value. When every team is scrambling to fit the players they need onto the 53 man roster and avoid IR'ing dinged guys who'll be back in a few weeks, no team is going to want to trade for a guy who has been standing on the sideline at practice with reported broken ribs.

[Beerball]

So is someone saying "I" worth starting pay for another position, both cash and cap, as well as a roster spot.... Or do you pay someone to be a consultant of sorts if you think no one in the coaching staff is qualified to offer him the type of mentoring that Matt cassel can (assuming that Matt cassel is both engaged after being bumped down the chart, and good at that to begin with)?

I think comparing cutting cassel to being a littman move is a bit cheap. I think we could find the 10 most aggressive spending GMs and not see that much at QB3 because they want to spend on players that will see the field. No ones saying sit on the cash, but instead free up the cap for better roster building.

I don't think you brought money into the equation with your question, you asked what a vet would bring.

 

To answer your new question money is an issue and it plays a huge factor. Hopefully the Bills have already had talks with Cassel's people. "Listen, we'd like to keep Matt on, but, simply cannot at his current salary. Would a restructuring (paycut in this case, not simply moving $$$ from one year to another) be something you would consider? If not, we are in serious talks about cutting you (at the last possible instance).

 

How would Meh respond to that? Don't know. He might be pissed, or he may thank his lucky stars that someone is willing to pay him $2M (pick your #) to hold a clipboard and be inactive on game days.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I know some people don't think much of EJ but he did actually win games for the Bills. There is no need to exaggerate his record. It's not 0-fer.

 

I don't see anyone exaggerating his record (or even bringing it up here, save you). A good QB on a crap team can have a mediocre or bad record. The record belongs to the team.

 

Regardless of record, the fact is the job EJ did as QB when last he played was not good enough to put us where we want to go. He didn't seem able to read defense and react quickly enough to be accurate, or to go through his progressions. He did look much improved this preseason, but a lot of players look great in preseason who don't when it's for-real. One notable difference between PS and regular season is the complexity and variety of the D he'll have to read, so given his past performance reading D and reacting quickly enough, there seems reasonable grounds for concern.

 

Don't you see having a starter who has never played a snap in the NFL and a much-improved young guy who hasn't shown that improvement in the regular season as cause for concern? Not for being a downer - I'm genuinely excited for this season to start - but if we really are in "win now" mode, there is a known phenomenon that good play in PS doesn't always translate to regular season. It's a risk. The de-risking strategy is obvious - keep Cassel around - and has the possible benefit of providing the young QB with a veteran peer to help them develop. If teams that have had some success with young QB do this (Colts, Dolphins) maybe it might outweigh the $$ and the roster spot.

 

I think that's the point people are trying to make. On the other hand, I think Roman is crazy like a fox and he had EJ playing against our 1's D as much as he did for a reason - to help him progress and chart his progress against realistic regular season type D. So I go with what the coaches and football people decide - as long as the bean counters and marketing guys aren't ruling the roost as they used to.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Hopeful

[NoSaint]

I don't think you brought money into the equation with your question, you asked what a vet would bring.

 

To answer your new question money is an issue and it plays a huge factor. Hopefully the Bills have already had talks with Cassel's people. "Listen, we'd like to keep Matt on, but, simply cannot at his current salary. Would a restructuring (paycut in this case, not simply moving $$$ from one year to another) be something you would consider? If not, we are in serious talks about cutting you (at the last possible instance).

 

How would Meh respond to that? Don't know. He might be pissed, or he may thank his lucky stars that someone is willing to pay him $2M (pick your #) to hold a clipboard and be inactive on game days.

Oh I didn't, but it's the logical second part. I don't doubt he'd have some job beyond sitting in the corner by himself but is that a worthwhile job given the realities of the situation. Before bringing the opportunity cost in i was curious to see clean answers on the role.

 

If he takes a big cut, maybe.

Edited September 5, 2015 by NoSaint

[JohnC]

So is someone saying "I" worth starting pay for another position, both cash and cap, as well as a roster spot.... Or do you pay someone to be a consultant of sorts if you think no one in the coaching staff is qualified to offer him the type of mentoring that Matt cassel can (assuming that Matt cassel is both engaged after being bumped down the chart, and good at that to begin with)?

I think comparing cutting cassel to being a littman move is a bit cheap. I think we could find the 10 most aggressive spending GMs and not see that much at QB3 because they want to spend on players that will see the field. No ones saying sit on the cash, but instead free up the cap for better roster building.

Cassel does have a useful role as a backup qb. He is not a starting dynamo but coming into the game as a relief qb he can be a credible qb who allows your team in the short run to reasonably compete. Injuries are very prevelant. Having him on the team as a second or even a third string qb in a brutally long season replete with numerous injuries can be beneficial.

 

It should be factored in that as of now the Bills don't have an elite qb who commands a large amount of cap space that a Rodgers or Roethlisberger command. Keeping Cassel on the roster as a 2nd or even 3rd string qb won't be considered financially onerous for this season. Next year could be a different situation.

 

Last year Arizona was in an excellent position to make the playoffs and possibly have an extended playoff run. Their starter and backup got hurt and their prospects for what once was a promising season was extinguished.

 

Littman forced the organization to cut a former OL starter, Hangartner, when he lost his starting job.Although he was no longer the starting center he was able to be a useful utility player as a backup for the center and both guard positions. He was cut because the order came down from the finance office (Littman) that backups will not be paid starter money. Shortly thereafter there were injuries to the line with no adequate backups to call on. The line's peformance took a precipitous drop.

[bourbonboy]

Can Cassel's contract be re-negotiated? If Cassel is cut, no one would claim him on waivers and take over his existing contract (starter money), as no other starting positions are up for grabs. So, Cassel will be a backup somewhere. And if he'll only be offered backup money elsewhere, there's gotta be a way to keep him here at a lower salary, yes?

Edited September 5, 2015 by bourbonboy

[Beerball]

Oh I didn't, but it's the logical second part. I don't doubt he'd have some job beyond sitting in the corner by himself but is that a worthwhile job given the realities of the situation. Before bringing the opportunity cost in i was curious to see clean answers on the role.

 

If he takes a big cut, maybe.

We have an "extra" roster spot because of Dareus suspension. The Bills could choose to hold on to MC through the cut down day as that extra player. Then on the 12th they cut him and promote someone from the practice squad, resign a player who cleared waivers or sign someone else's castoff.

 

What would that accomplish? It would keep Meh off the market while teams are finalizing their rosters. He doesn't get picked up if he's cut that late. If he was picked up after the first game I think his salary isn't guaranteed? Is that harsh? Yup. Cutting Jackson was harsh to, but, it's business. You make all of this clear to Cassel when you're talking about a new contract. Let him decide.

 

Any chance this plays out?

[Greybeard]

Which is kind of sad don't you think. The best money we have spent was on an opt out clause.

 

Not if you figure it would have been worth it at 10 Mil

[YoloinOhio]

@MikeMcCartney7: Annual reminder: there are no FINAL rosters. They will change daily. Many relieved and excited players today will be disappointed tomorrow.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

So I can fill you in on that on as I officiate HS volleyball. Generally they may talk about their nails, a text one of them got, who's going out with who, where the party will be this coming weekend, etc. And there's always one clueless coach in every league who will yell at one of the girls for hitting the ball out of bounds, "don't keep doing that" they say. Like the girl was aiming for the out of bounds!

 

I bring that last point up only because of some comments from some of the Bills' players in the past few months, particularly O-lineman and EJ, it kind of sounded like the level of coaching they were getting under the Marrone era wasn't much better than that.

 

 

 

You know, I'll put it out there. I don't have a clue what the Volleyball girls all talk about when they circle up between every point.

I can see Goodwin either getting cut today to get down to the 53/54 or wouldn't shock me to see the team IR him. IMO He's not good enough this early in the season to put him on the IR designated to return list, not for a maybe #4 or 5 WR, so if the Bills do really see him as an asset as some people think, they may IR him, or they decide he is to brittle and cut him.

 

 

 

Goodwin has little trade value, he is too brittle, and I doubt Hogan does either. And teams know, if they're looking for a reciever one will be cut and then they can sign him. Not worth the risk of a draft pick. Personally, I think Hogan is the better keep. Goodwin is a one trick pony—run as fast and as far as you can. Hogan can do more.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I don't think you brought money into the equation with your question, you asked what a vet would bring.

 

To answer your new question money is an issue and it plays a huge factor. Hopefully the Bills have already had talks with Cassel's people. "Listen, we'd like to keep Matt on, but, simply cannot at his current salary. Would a restructuring (paycut in this case, not simply moving $$$ from one year to another) be something you would consider? If not, we are in serious talks about cutting you (at the last possible instance).

 

How would Meh respond to that? Don't know. He might be pissed, or he may thank his lucky stars that someone is willing to pay him $2M (pick your #) to hold a clipboard and be inactive on game days.

 

Good points, Sphere O' Beer. Here's my problem though. If we really want a vet as a "derisking strategy" for unproven QB, is it worth the potential cap savings we might actually get to risk having Cassel walk? And if we aren't set on the need to keep a vet as a derisking strategy, why not just cut the guy and save it all?

 

Cassel is getting $4.24M if he's here (Sunday, or Thursday - anyone sure when the season officially starts?). Schaub is getting $2M from the Ravens to hold a clipboard this year. Hasselbeck 's salary is $2M. Fitzpatrick is getting $3.25M from the Jets. McCown (whom I would argue was signed to compete with a 1st round draft pick, he just won) is getting $2.25M salary ($5.25M overall this year) from the Browns.

 

If I'm Cassel's agent, I'm quite confident that $2-3M is a reasonable "going rate" for a capable vet playing backup in a QB-starved league that just snapped up Vick and for God's sake, Tim Tebow. So if we go that route we save maybe $2M at most? And when the "injury bug" strikes, Cassel can possibly pull in all of what he's making now plus more from some desperate team.

 

I think the Bills tried that tactic with Fitz's people when he was owed $3M roster bonus and $4.45M salary/workout in 2013. They signed TJax with a $0.5M bonus and $1.75M if he's on the roster for the season (escalating if he started) and I think they offered Fitz similar salary his first year, with nothing guaranteed and performance escalators. And Fitz said "even as a backup I can pull in a signing bonus and more money than that" and got reportedly $3.3M from the Titans his 1st year (incl. signing bonus etc). The result was we signed "German word for Made of Glass" Kolb for a total of $2.9M and wound up with a project rookie and a bunch of scraps starting for us, then splurged on the Orton follies to the tune of $5.5M. Meanwhile Fitz, down in Texas, turned in the best stats of his career.

 

I'm not saying we should have kept Fitz, I'm just saying we were penny wise, pound foolish in our past veteran QB follies. If we cut Cassel, we risk scrambling hard for a decent QB if Tyrod and EJ flame out or get hurt - and there's a higher risk of both than usual given the lack of NFL playing history and tendency to run.

 

IMHO, you either decide you need a vet on the roster and pay the man. Or you decide you don't need a vet on the roster, and you send the Turk.

 

Me, I want to see the Bills go All In on the season and keep the vet QB until we know for sure what we got. We're under the cap right now, and if Dalton Freeman works out at center and we draft one next year, we can save $4.1M by handing Eric Wood a pink slip after the season esp. if he doesn't really step it up.

Can Cassel's contract be re-negotiated? If Cassel is cut, no one would claim him on waivers and take over his existing contract (starter money), as no other starting positions are up for grabs. So, Cassel will be a backup somewhere. And if he'll only be offered backup money elsewhere, there's gotta be a way to keep him here at a lower salary, yes?

 

Waivers do not apply to Cassel. He is a vested vet.

 

Veteran backups around the league (one can nitpick points) are getting between $1M and $3.25M, and Cassel is arguably towards the top of the heap on the talent/age scale for that group of guys (Vick? Schaub? Hasselbeck?).

 

I think he'd find a home PDQ, and if he didn't find a home immediately for lower $$, he'd find pay dirt as soon as injuries hit.

 

So we're talking "playing chicken" over maybe $2.25M, which sounds like huge money to me but is kind of chicken feed where the most important position in football is concerned.

[Flip Johnson]

I keep hearing that 4.5 million is too much to pay a 3rd string QB.

 

Sure, that is conventional wisdom, but what if your starting QB is making 750K and you backup only makes 2.2M?

 

4.5 million is a crazy amount to pay the 3rd string QB if you have an established veteran QB. But this team is only two years removed from a season that featured two appearances from Jeff Tuel.

 

We don't know - and we won't know for a little while whether Tyrod Taylor is the type of guy who is banged up after every game (Vick, Griffin) or the type of guy that is so nimble and aware that nobody ever hits him solidly (Flutie, Wilson). 4.5 million is expensive insurance but it is worth it in this case. If we are carrying extra cap weight it certainly isn't at this position as a whole.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I know some people don't think much of EJ but he did actually win games for the Bills. There is no need to exaggerate his record. It's not 0-fer.

I think quite a bit of EJ. There is nothing I'd like more than to see this team go to the playoffs with EJ Manuel establishing himself as a franchise quarterback! It would be sweeter for me personally than it would be to see Tyrod do the same because on top of finally seeing the Bills get strong quarterback play and wins, it would mean personal vindication with my dad and brother- few things in this world are more appealing to a Jewish man like myself.

 

I think you're pointing to the line "the last time he played he gave us no chance to win," but fear you've misconstrued the meaning. The last game he played he gave us no chance to win, and a relatively strong preseason following a shaky training camp is what it is. EJ has made clear progress and that is a beautiful thing! Hopefully he's ready to fulfill his potential. Consider that if EJ followed the career path of Tyrod or Aaron Rodgers he'd still be sitting on the bench for two more full seasons. Acknowledging he may or may not be ready is a far cry from writing the young man off.

[Sisyphean Bills]

They cut the Terminator. Dang.

I keep hearing that 4.5 million is too much to pay a 3rd string QB.

 

Sure, that is conventional wisdom, but what if your starting QB is making 750K and you backup only makes 2.2M?

 

4.5 million is a crazy amount to pay the 3rd string QB if you have an established veteran QB. But this team is only two years removed from a season that featured two appearances from Jeff Tuel.

 

We don't know - and we won't know for a little while whether Tyrod Taylor is the type of guy who is banged up after every game (Vick, Griffin) or the type of guy that is so nimble and aware that nobody ever hits him solidly (Flutie, Wilson). 4.5 million is expensive insurance but it is worth it in this case. If we are carrying extra cap weight it certainly isn't at this position as a whole.

 

Tyrod is far from an established starter. As is EJM.

 

Cassel may be the #3 guy right now, but do people really think the situation cannot change for any reason by December? Really?

[GunnerBill]

If the rumours they cut Meeks are right then they need two cuts to get to the 54 they need to be at for week 1. To my mind it is pretty straightforward having looked at who we have left.... O'Leary goes and one of the three young linebackers. Rex has basically said Tarpley stays but I don't see them keeping him, Steward and Reddick. For me it is 2 from 3.

[NoSaint]

 

Good points, Sphere O' Beer. Here's my problem though. If we really want a vet as a "derisking strategy" for unproven QB, is it worth the potential cap savings we might actually get to risk having Cassel walk? And if we aren't set on the need to keep a vet as a derisking strategy, why not just cut the guy and save it all?

 

Cassel is getting $4.24M if he's here (Sunday, or Thursday - anyone sure when the season officially starts?). Schaub is getting $2M from the Ravens to hold a clipboard this year. Hasselbeck 's salary is $2M. Fitzpatrick is getting $3.25M from the Jets. McCown (whom I would argue was signed to compete with a 1st round draft pick, he just won) is getting $2.25M salary ($5.25M overall this year) from the Browns.

 

If I'm Cassel's agent, I'm quite confident that $2-3M is a reasonable "going rate" for a capable vet playing backup in a QB-starved league that just snapped up Vick and for God's sake, Tim Tebow. So if we go that route we save maybe $2M at most? And when the "injury bug" strikes, Cassel can possibly pull in all of what he's making now plus more from some desperate team.

 

I think the Bills tried that tactic with Fitz's people when he was owed $3M roster bonus and $4.45M salary/workout in 2013. They signed TJax with a $0.5M bonus and $1.75M if he's on the roster for the season (escalating if he started) and I think they offered Fitz similar salary his first year, with nothing guaranteed and performance escalators. And Fitz said "even as a backup I can pull in a signing bonus and more money than that" and got reportedly $3.3M from the Titans his 1st year (incl. signing bonus etc). The result was we signed "German word for Made of Glass" Kolb for a total of $2.9M and wound up with a project rookie and a bunch of scraps starting for us, then splurged on the Orton follies to the tune of $5.5M. Meanwhile Fitz, down in Texas, turned in the best stats of his career.

 

I'm not saying we should have kept Fitz, I'm just saying we were penny wise, pound foolish in our past veteran QB follies. If we cut Cassel, we risk scrambling hard for a decent QB if Tyrod and EJ flame out or get hurt - and there's a higher risk of both than usual given the lack of NFL playing history and tendency to run.

 

IMHO, you either decide you need a vet on the roster and pay the man. Or you decide you don't need a vet on the roster, and you send the Turk.

 

Me, I want to see the Bills go All In on the season and keep the vet QB until we know for sure what we got. We're under the cap right now, and if Dalton Freeman works out at center and we draft one next year, we can save $4.1M by handing Eric Wood a pink slip after the season esp. if he doesn't really step it up.

 

 

Waivers do not apply to Cassel. He is a vested vet.

 

Veteran backups around the league (one can nitpick points) are getting between $1M and $3.25M, and Cassel is arguably towards the top of the heap on the talent/age scale for that group of guys (Vick? Schaub? Hasselbeck?).

 

I think he'd find a home PDQ, and if he didn't find a home immediately for lower $$, he'd find pay dirt as soon as injuries hit.

 

So we're talking "playing chicken" over maybe $2.25M, which sounds like huge money to me but is kind of chicken feed where the most important position in football is concerned.

Is it really financially prudent to have the highest paid backup qb in the league at #3, or is it recklessly worried about the worst case scenario?

 

I know you are bending over pretty far backwards to justify that it's not far out of line, but it is. Is there a scenario where you end up right? Sure. But I think it's very narrowly defined and very rare and that's why you don't see it despite your efforts to compare it to top end primary backups that are 1 play away.