Felser an idiot again

[Albany,n.y.]

Felser had Gregg written off by the middle of 2002, said he'd never make it as Bills coach & we should dump him instead of bringing him back in 2003. I can cherrypick Felser's good ideas and make him look like a genius. As Labatt stated, Felser has written a lot of columns in the past 45 years that the Bills have been around.

[jahbonas]

You obviously don't get the point (AGAIN!) Flutie was not going to be a #1 overall NFL pick.  On the other hand, where he was chosen in the NFL draft had nothing to do with how he was rated coming out of college, because he was already under contract in the USFL.  So...by stating where Flutie was drafted to support your opinion, you lose all credibility and it looks like you are not aware of the circumstances involved in the 1985 NFL draft.  Back in 1985, I had a pretty good feeling that Jim Kelly would soon be comming to Buffalo, so I was against drafting a QB with the first pick no matter who he was.  I was never a fan of Flutie's but I respect Felser and value his opinions over someone who cherrypicks a few bad ones and bashes the guy.

237409[/snapback]

what cannot you read?? Felser (not me) wanted us to use the #1 pick overall on Flutie in 1985....did Felser not know that Flutie was under a USFL contract?????

I'm not so sure Flutie signed with the USFL prior to the NFL draft..OR if he had that it meant he could not be drafted & signed and play for an NFL team. The USFL signed Flutie for his name/celebrity. Flutie would rather have played in the NFL than the USFL but the money was a big difference since Flutie was never going to be drafted in rd1 or rd2 (except by Felser) and the USFL was gonna overpay him for his name...

Felser's argument at the time (I read his articles..did u??) ws to draft Flutie for his name/celebrity....which was exactly the wrong thing to do !!! We needed a top football player...not a celebrity...

[jahbonas]

Larry is a columnist.  Columnists form opinions and then have them printed in the paper.  If you are so much better at forming opinions, maybe you should apply to the News.  He has written hundreds if not thousands of columns over the years.  I wouldn't expect him to have been correct in his observations 100% of the time.

 

PS Hindsight is 20/20.

237422[/snapback]

I agree with you about columnists...but there are DEGREES of being wrong...

How more wrong can you be than to claim Jim Kelly (a 1st ballot hall of famer) could not win a big game so start Frank Reich (a lifelong backup)...is an incredible poor judgement/opinion.

And the thought to use the top overall pick in 1985 draft on Doug Flutie (who was banished to the CFL for a decade) is a joke too....

[Puhonix]

For the record-the fake spike was against the Jets, I was at the game.

237369[/snapback]

Ok, so this shows exactly why I never regard to myself as an expert.But I still proclaim Felser is an idiot.

[lawnboy1977]

Larry Felser in the past has claimed the following:

1) 1985 Draft  Bills should draft Doug Flutie #1 overall instead of Bruce Smith (Flutie was not drafted until 4th round or later)

2) 1989 Before Bills /Browns playoffs game Felser claimed Bills should start frank Reich over Kelly because Kelly cannot win a big playoff game. Kelly threw 5TD's that day and went on to win 4 straight AFC championship games.

3) Today..Felser does not think Dan Marino was even top10 all time in QB's. He ofcourse takes the simple/dumb approach of Superbowl wins determining a great QB. An incredible take when there is no other sport where an individual player has less impact since they never play defense. Apparently Larry feels Jeff Hostettler, Mark Rypien and Trent Dilfer and Franco Harris are better players than Jim Kelly Dan Marino an Fouts and OJ Simpson.

237323[/snapback]

In his defense, Felser did make a distinction between great passers and great quarterbacks. Still though, I don't know how you can not rank Marino as one of the top ten in either category. I think the only reason Marino never won a Super Bowl, was because he 1) had no running game, and B) never had much of a defense, you could also mention he didnt have much of a supporting cast. his top receivers for years were Duper and Clayton, who Marino made them look good, they weren't that spectacualr of a duo.

 

Also, look back at the year the Dolphins should have made the Super Bowl. 1985, thewy lost to the Patriots, a wild card team, playing their 3rd straight road playoff game and on their way to the most lopsided Super Bowl game in history. You mean to tell me that Marino couldn't beat the Patriots that year to at least make the Super Bowl? Come on!

[Albany,n.y.]

what cannot you read?? Felser (not me) wanted us to use the #1 pick overall on Flutie in 1985....did Felser not know that Flutie was under a USFL contract?????

I'm not so sure Flutie signed with the USFL prior to the NFL draft..OR if he had that  it meant he could not be drafted & signed and play for an NFL team.  The USFL signed Flutie for his name/celebrity.  Flutie would rather have played in the NFL than the USFL but the money was a big difference since Flutie was never going to be drafted in rd1 or rd2 (except by Felser) and the USFL was gonna overpay him for his name... 

Felser's argument at the time (I read his articles..did u??) ws to draft Flutie for his name/celebrity....which was exactly the wrong thing to do !!! We needed a top football player...not a celebrity...

237530[/snapback]

You certainly know how to revise history to fit your argument. I'll stick to the facts instead. Fact: The NFL draft was held on April 30, 1985 but Bruce Smith had already signed with the Bills on February 28, 1985 because the Bills had the top pick in the 1985 draft. That means that they could not have drafted another player after 2/28/85. As far as the Flutie was concerned, he signed with the New Jersey Generals on February 4, 1985. So-Felser columns that you refer to were written before 2/4/85. The Bills had made it quite clear to Flutie that they were not interested in him & Trump had a take it or leave it offer on the table because the Generals' USFL season began on 2/24/85. Obviously, Felser would not have been writing to draft Flutie after he signed with the USFL & certainly not after Bruce Smith had signed with the Bills.

The point you either don't understand or are trying to ignore is that you cannot use where he was drafted in the 1985 NFL draft and say he wouldn't have been taken by another team somewhere in the 1st or 2nd round. You have not one iota of evidence as of 2/4/85 to draw that conclusion.

[Buftex]

slightly out of the loop here, but who is this Felser idiot? I gotta stand up for my Dolphin here, Marino is among the top three QBs of all time, and has a strong case to be argued as the best. Granted, he has no rings, but Barkley has no rings, and no one is arguing his greatness. Karl Malone has no rings, and my favortie steroid user, Barry has no rings. Anyone goig to argue their greatness? I'll tell you what, Steve Young was a great QB, but I'd put Marino, Elway, and Kelly over him in any ranking.

237341[/snapback]

 

 

I am not going to get into, who was better/best debate, because I think it is a waste of time and energy. All of these guys were outstanding in their own ways. I may have a bias toward Kelly, because he was our guy, or Elway, because, non-Bills, he was the most exciting platyer I ever got to watch (Favre is up there too, but a few too many bad plays as well). I will say though, I think Steve Young is way underrated in all of these arguments. True, he was voted into the HOF in his first year of elidgability, but I almost never here his name (or Kelly for that matter) mentioned as one of the all-time greats, just an all-time good. The guy was smart, athletic, and maybe the most accurate mobile QB I have ever seen. Once he hit his stride, he made very few negative plays for the 49ers. A all-timer, in my book. If I was starting a team, and I could pick from all of the players from the modern, modern era (I am defining this as the last 25 years) my QB depth chart would likely consist of Young, Elway and Favre.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

You miss my point COMPLETELY if you point out Barkley not winning a ring. In Basketball it is VERY fair to blame a player for not winning a ring because he is 20% of the Offense & 20% of the defense !!  In football...with 3 seperate 11 man units (and yes i include special teams since they missed a FG) a qb is 1 of 33 players...making it far harder to determine the outcome.

 

You are not a Felser expert..I am from Buffalo and I read his columns daily for 25 years.....

Felser's #1 Qb alltime...?? Montano..because he has 4 rings

I think Elway was far more impressive and HOF material in the seasons he lost the superbowls than in the seasons he won where he just handed off to 2000 yard rusher Terrell Davis and was not even his own team's mvp....Kelly or Marino or Fouts could have won late Superbowls too if they were given a 2000 yard rusher in their backfields

237361[/snapback]

 

It's not so much that I miss your point completely (you're not that bad a writer and I,m not that bad a reader though obviously neither of us are perfect), its just that I folded in a thought from another post in this thread (from Puhonix or someome else I think) which supported your view into my argument. I also agree that the NFL is so good because it is the ultimate pro sports team game. No single player wins the SB all by themselves and an individual has far more influence in the NBA.

 

However, I think this perspective supports my thinking in that the best QBs are those who do tangible things to build a team capable of winning and the lesser QBs operate in a method that focuses the team stategy and the business unto them and not onto the team.

 

One of the reasons I think Elway wins out over Marino in my judgment is that Elway was finally smart enough to realize that he had to take less than the market offered him in a contract so that the Broncos could hang onto Terrell Davis, Shannon Sharpe and the other players which allowed this team to win. He did that and they won two. So too with Brett Favre, his cap hit was long below the top 10 QBs in the league even when he was one of the top 5 QBs easily. He took less money so the Pack could hang onto the running game and defenders like Regie White and they won an SB.

 

Kelly never took less than the market would give him since from his USFL days to him closing his restaurant and screwing dozens of local small businesses who were vendors he owed money he has been about the Benjamins. However, Kelly deserves a lot of credit in my book and also his HOF nod because he has that amazing quality that he seemed to make the players around him perform better. Folks love him here because the force of will he demonstrated time and again was virtually a tangible force that willed this team to the SB 4 times.

 

Marino on the other hand is clearly one of these most (if not the most) talented QB's ever. However, time and again we saw the Marino-focused Miami teams spin down the drain as he and no other individual can deliver an NFL chanpionship on their own. Marino is one of the great QBs statistically in my mind but falls way short on my top 1o list because he never made the players around him play their best games and thsus put them over the top to win SBs.

 

Elway finally did this through financial sacrifice. I agree with Felser that Joe Montana is one of the best of all time because in story after story he did this through cool collected leadership and decision-making.

 

Marino is one of the best, but Elway, Montana and even Jim Kelly were better in my book. To the extent Felser agrees with this is may be an idiot but he is an idiot who is correct about this in my judgment.

[BRH]

Incidentally, maybe people should read the Felser column before opining. He spent only a couple of paragraphs, if that, on Marino. And Felser also said that Bob Kuechenberg belongs in the Hall, so the Marino dis wasn't just a case of a Buffalo guy denigrating a hated Dolphin.

 

That said, I agree with Felser. If I wanted to win one football game, I could think of 20 quarterbacks I'd take before I took Dan Marino. Hell I could do that off the top of my head. In no particular order:

 

1. Johnny Unitas

2. Brett Favre

3. Joe Montana

4. Jim Kelly

5. John Elway

6. Bart Starr

7. Steve Young

8. Bobby Layne

9. Roger Staubach

10. Y.A. Tittle

11. Terry Bradshaw

12. Troy Aikman

13. Joe Namath

14. Otto Graham

15. Jim McMahon

16. Ken Stabler

17. Phil Simms

18. Warren Moon

19. Sid Luckman

20. Norm Van Brocklin

 

That didn't take long. Remember, I said to WIN ONE GAME.

 

I hate it when people claim Marino was at a disadvantage because he didn't have a running game. Shula built his offense around Marino's arm and you never once heard Danny say in the offseason "I think we should get a running back in here" or "I think we should run more" or "I think we should get offensive linemen who can run-block." He liked the offense just fine the way it was, and he was just as much at fault as Shula was for the fact that Miami had stevestojan for a running game for almost 20 years.

[jahbonas]

You certainly know how to revise history to fit your argument.  I'll stick to the facts instead.  Fact: The NFL draft was held on April 30, 1985 but Bruce Smith had already signed with the Bills on February 28, 1985 because the Bills had the top pick in the 1985 draft.  That means that they could not have drafted another player after 2/28/85.  As far as the Flutie was concerned, he signed with the New Jersey Generals on February 4, 1985.  So-Felser columns that you refer to were written before 2/4/85.  The Bills had made it quite clear to Flutie that they were not interested in him & Trump had a take it or leave it offer on the table because the Generals' USFL season began on 2/24/85.  Obviously, Felser would not have been writing to draft Flutie after he signed with the USFL & certainly not after Bruce Smith had signed with the Bills. 

The point you either don't understand or are trying to ignore is that you cannot use where he was drafted in the 1985 NFL draft and say he wouldn't have been taken by another team somewhere in the 1st or 2nd round.  You have not one iota of evidence as of 2/4/85 to draw that conclusion.

237596[/snapback]

I will not use where he was drafted....The evidence that Flutie would not have been drafted high I have pointed out...HE was CUT by EVERY NFL team so he went up to Canada for a decade !! He was not NFL caliber (that is not me saying it..its every team in the NFL at the time saying it)......Flutie could have come down from Canada at any time...but no takers..none..zippo...therefore he was not NFL 1st round material..in that era

If some GM had done what Felser suggested..they'd have been FIRED because their qb would have been a bust of a pick...Larry ofcourse never gets fired..he just moved on to his next opinion...start Frank Reich over 1st ballot HOF QB Jim Kelly

[BRH]

I will not use where he was drafted....The evidence that Flutie would not have been drafted high I have pointed out...HE was CUT by EVERY NFL team so he went up to Canada for a decade !! He was not NFL caliber (that is not me saying it..its every team in the NFL at the time saying it)......Flutie could have come down from Canada at any time...but no takers..none..zippo...therefore he was not NFL  1st round material..in that era

If some GM had done what Felser suggested..they'd have been FIRED because their qb would have been a bust of a pick...Larry ofcourse never gets fired..he just moved on to his next opinion...start Frank Reich over 1st ballot HOF QB Jim Kelly

237803[/snapback]

As much as I despise the little self-aggrandizing midget, he was not CUT by EVERY NFL team. After the USFL folded, he was cut by the Bears and the Patriots; then he went to Canada. He probably could have gotten a backup spot somewhere in the NFL but it wasn't until he was 40 years old (and after his Buffalo career, unfortunately) that he finally got it through that thick mullet of his that he was better-suited to being a backup than a starter.

[2003Contenders]

Personally, I see where Felser is coming from.

 

Marino was probably the GREATEST PASSER in the history of the NFL, but as an overall QB, he was arguably not in the top 10. In my mind, the Dolphins couldn't RUN the ball during Marino's glory years because Dan REFUSED to run it. I do not want to say that he sabotaged the running game -- but you COULD always tell when teh Dolphins were going to run or pass because Dan gave it away at the line of scrimmage.

[Albany,n.y.]

I will not use where he was drafted....The evidence that Flutie would not have been drafted high I have pointed out...HE was CUT by EVERY NFL team so he went up to Canada for a decade !! He was not NFL caliber (that is not me saying it..its every team in the NFL at the time saying it)......Flutie could have come down from Canada at any time...but no takers..none..zippo...therefore he was not NFL  1st round material..in that era

If some GM had done what Felser suggested..they'd have been FIRED because their qb would have been a bust of a pick...Larry ofcourse never gets fired..he just moved on to his next opinion...start Frank Reich over 1st ballot HOF QB Jim Kelly

237803[/snapback]

 

You can't base where a guy would have been drafted by how his career went. Based on that logic, Ryan Leaf would not have been drafted with the second pick of the draft-but he was and you can't revise his draft status because he was a bust. Same thing for guys like Akili Smith, Heath Schuler, Todd Marinovich, Cade McNown, David Klingler, Andre Ware etc-all 1st round busts. For the record, Flutie was only cut by New England, that's hardly every NFL team! He was traded by the Rams to the Bears, who then traded him to NE. Ditka loved him but lost out when the decision to trade him was made. So although NE cut him and the rest of the NFL passed on signing him, he was never cut by every NFL team-not even cut by more than the 1 of 3 teams that owned his rights Pre-Canada.

[jahbonas]

You can't base where a guy would have been drafted by how his career went.  Based on that logic, Ryan Leaf would not have been drafted with the second pick of the draft-but he was and you can't revise his draft status because he was a bust.  Same thing for guys like Akili Smith, Heath Schuler, Todd Marinovich, Cade McNown, David Klingler, Andre Ware etc-all 1st round busts.  For the record, Flutie was only cut by New England, that's hardly every NFL team!  He was traded by the Rams to the Bears, who then traded him to NE.  Ditka loved him but lost out when the decision to trade him was made.  So although NE cut him and the rest of the NFL passed on signing him, he was never cut by every NFL team-not even cut by more than the 1 of 3 teams that owned his rights Pre-Canada.

237863[/snapback]

If a player is cut by the Bills..and no other team picks him up..not for that season..or for 9 seasons more...you are in essence "cut by every NFL team'...meaning nobody in the league wants you

[KnightRider]

Simpletons use SB wins as a mark of a great player.  Winning the SB is ALL about the team, and most of the time about who has the best coaching.  Give Marino or Kelly Brady's/Dilfer's/Rypien's/Hostetler's coaching and/or defense and they win at least 1 SB.

237335[/snapback]

 

Marino had the winningest coach in history. His coach went undefeated with a backup QB. Then he had a guy who won two SBs. The reason Marino is not a 10 ten QB is that he could never beat the Kelly and Levy's Bills went it mattered. That is why Kelly and Levy had to be HOFers. They owned Marino and Shula.

 

As for Flutie, you have to remember that Kelly was not a Bill yet. If Flutie had been given a chance, he may have been a HOFer too. He was older than Kelly when he came here, and he tore up the league in 1998. People want to compare Bady to Montana, but I think another good comparison is to Flutie. Not great skills, but smart enough to make the best of them... I don't know that he was 1st overall pick, but, given the glaring need at QB at the time, he might have been a better choice than Reich in the 3rd round...