PolishDave Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 I have no sympathy for Brady, but I have even less for the power abusive NFL. The NFL is a corrupt corporation from top to bottom. The NFL thinks they are some kind of privileged organization that need not comply with the rule of law. Brady was smart (or devious) enough to destroy the key evidence in the case. However, the NFL has to prove their case to suspend a player from his job and the judge ruled there was no evidence directly linking Brady to the alleged offense. For me, they both suck big time, but the NFL sucks worse! The Bills need to beat Brady and the Pats so let's get on with it already! Give me a break Lenin.
NoSaint Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 I wish I was a little more surprised. It's easy to point the finger at Godell, and his biggest failure is in the legal team he surrounded himself with. They have virtually unlimited resources, and they can't negotiate a CBA that holds water and creates a reasonable and enforceable penalty. I sure hope the loss of draft picks sticks. (And I couldn't care less about the million dollars.) thats already done and final. its outside the cba, much like the saints couldnt do much to fight the organizational penalties despite the players winning.
K-9 Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Not quite. Berman did reaffirm the discipline outlined in the written policies of the league. He just torpedoed Goodell's authority to levy arbitrary punishment on arbitrary transgressions. Which I would normally agree with, except that he has that authority under the CBA. So Berman's ruling becomes a de facto overturning of those provisions of the CBA. What's more, it's the CBA those morons in the NFLPA agreed to...but they end up bearing no responsibility for this mess. Please do not stand in the way of my hyperbole. But you are correct. I agree with Berman on the Pash and document issues and the league should have made both available. He was dead wrong on the issue of notice, imo. Other than that, he has rendered this particular CBA feckless and that's why I think he set a bad precedent. GO BILLS!!!
Augie Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 It's easy to foresee and establish punishment for some types of transgressions (PED's, DUI, etc). It's the bizarre occurances that no one could anticipate that will be the problem. There has to be some sort of provision to punish those offenses, so they built the Commissioners power into the CBA. The players then agreed to it. This sickens me.
PortlandiaEast Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Very well put. Brady never deserved 4 games for this even if he did it. Goodell took this way too far and its going to bite him in the ass. The CBA gave goodell a very broad direction that he could punish players for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game. My opinion is total two-faced... Do I think Brady deserved 4 games? Hell no. The team should have gotten the 25K fine (per ball) and end it - even the draft picks are nuts. FAULT - NFL/Goodell for not laying down the proper punishment. It should have ended there. But it didn't. An "investigation" was launched. During said investigation (that should have never even happened), Brady & co were not cooperative enough and the NFL and from Goodells perspective, Brady & Co were taking part in conduct that (at least on its face) appeared to be detrimental to the league. As such, he laid out a punishment. The NFLPA agreed to adhere to punishment laid out by the commish in the CBA. Well they received a punishment they felt unjust. Unfortunately... You agreed to it. The NFLPA negotiated with the NFL for the terms laid out and a contract was agreed on. Wait until the next CBA or go on strike like any other labor union. BUT the investigation should have never been launched in the first place. I am going in circles... I am not calling anyone out here. I love this board and I think it facilitates (at times) intelligent conversation. If I got any facts wrong please correct me (nicely). Go bills. Edited September 3, 2015 by PortlandiaEast
NoSaint Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 The CBA gave goodell a very broad direction that he could punish players, coaches, owners, for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game. My opinion is total two-faced... Do I think Brady deserved 4 games? Hell no. The team should have gotten the 25K fine (per ball) and end it - even the draft picks are nuts. FAULT - NFL/Goodell for not laying down the proper punishment. It should have ended there. But it didn't. An "investigation" was launched. During said investigation (that should have never even happened), Brady & co were not cooperative enough and the NFL and from Goodells perspective, Brady & Co were taking part in conduct that (at least on its face) appeared to be detrimental to the league. As such, he laid out a punishment. The NFLPA agreed to adhere to punishment laid out by the commish in the CBA. Well they received a punishment they felt unjust. Unfortunately... You agreed to it. The NFLPA negotiated with the NFL for the terms laid out and a contract was agreed on. Wait until the next CBA or go on strike like any other labor union. BUT the investigation should have never been launched in the first place. I am going in circles... I am not calling anyone out here. I this board and I think it faciliates (at times) intellegent conversation. If I got any facts wrong please correct me (nicely). Go bills. i mean it in a nice way, but honestly didnt get past the first line as the cba is between the league and nflpa, not owners and coaches.
PortlandiaEast Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) i mean it in a nice way, but honestly didnt get past the first line as the cba is between the league and nflpa, not owners and coaches. Welp I blew it Post editted. Edited September 3, 2015 by PortlandiaEast
Augie Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Welp I blew it Post editted. Hopefully others get past the first line now. This is pretty much the way I see it. If the players agreed to the CBA and it gave Goodell those powers, I bet they won't make that mistake again. Until then...... it is what it is. Too bad the judge doesn't care what I think.
Tuco Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 I have no sympathy for Brady, but I have even less for the power abusive NFL. The NFL is a corrupt corporation from top to bottom. The NFL thinks they are some kind of privileged organization that need not comply with the rule of law. Brady was smart (or devious) enough to destroy the key evidence in the case. However, the NFL has to prove their case to suspend a player from his job and the judge ruled there was no evidence directly linking Brady to the alleged offense. For me, they both suck big time, but the NFL sucks worse! The Bills need to beat Brady and the Pats so let's get on with it already! But if you're not allowed to subpoena records or witnesses because it's not a criminal case, that leaves the guilty party free to stonewall and destroy evidence. It wasn't just the phone the league was also denied any questioning of Needle Dee and Needle Dum under oath. So you give the commissioner the power to oversee as he sees fit instead, but then when you don't like his actions you get a judge hold the same commissioner to the standard of a criminal court, even though he was denied criminal court resources? And also tell the commissioner that stonewalling and destroying evidence isn't punishable either? I've read the judge's decision and can mostly understand his reasoning. But the commissioner was given that power during arm's length negotiation and it just seems wrong for the judge to take it away. Who can say what the league gave up in negotiations in order to keep the commissioner's authority as is? I don't see how the judge can dismiss that. As another poster pointed out, there is legal precedent that you can't gain something in arbitration that you didn't gain in collective bargaining.
shrader Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 I love this idea that some like to throw around that New England should now challenge the fine and lost draft pick decision. In this completely unrealistic fantasy scenario, the league then turns around and tells Bob Kraft that he's no longer welcome in the NFL. A man can dream, can't he?
Tuco Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 The CBA gave goodell a very broad direction that he could punish players for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game. My opinion is total two-faced... Do I think Brady deserved 4 games? Hell no. The team should have gotten the 25K fine (per ball) and end it - even the draft picks are nuts. FAULT - NFL/Goodell for not laying down the proper punishment. It should have ended there. But it didn't. An "investigation" was launched. During said investigation (that should have never even happened), Brady & co were not cooperative enough and the NFL and from Goodells perspective, Brady & Co were taking part in conduct that (at least on its face) appeared to be detrimental to the league. As such, he laid out a punishment. The NFLPA agreed to adhere to punishment laid out by the commish in the CBA. Well they received a punishment they felt unjust. Unfortunately... You agreed to it. The NFLPA negotiated with the NFL for the terms laid out and a contract was agreed on. Wait until the next CBA or go on strike like any other labor union. BUT the investigation should have never been launched in the first place. I am going in circles... I am not calling anyone out here. I love this board and I think it facilitates (at times) intelligent conversation. If I got any facts wrong please correct me (nicely). Go bills. I agree except I don't mind the investigation. Even the Patsys* claimed to be all for it in the beginning. But then the league discovered evidence that the practice had been going on much longer than one game they were bound to investigate that thoroughly. And that's when the stonewalling and noncooperation really began, leaving the league with no choice but to believe their suspicions were well founded - at which point they had to see it through regardless of the slimness of evidence. But the union did give (negotiated) the league that power and I don't think the judge gave that enough weight. The judge, of course, is probably not too concerned with what I think.
dib Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Was Brady smirking on the way out of his wrist slapping?
USABuffaloFan Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 The CBA is a collection of allot of different rules and rights. One of the rights is the Commisioner has authority to make changes to discipline but he can't arbitrarilly decide what can be disciplined. Meaning he can't change on the fly the NFL Integrity rule as written in the CBA already on who can be punished. He can petition the owners, NFLPA to make the change to mean players but can't just decide this himself. The commisioner also doesn't have the right to convict someone when there is no direct evidence then claim the player impeded the process. Believe me, if Roger won this case the NFLPA would go to court stop this CBA for allowing a dictator ship to be laid in place against individual rights given in the constitution. A employee can be fired but not disciplined arbitraily outside of the constitution rights of the 5th amendment. The burden of proof for discipline comes from being found guilty beyond the reason of doubt. Roger Goodell has not been given the right to take away legal action against the NFL when it violates federal law and constitutional rights. Brady has a right to defend himself from arbitrally being called GUILTY and punished. The team however isn't afforded the same rights since they are a franchise of the NFL and are held to a higher "NFL Integrity". The Patriots as a employer hold more of a right to discipline for Integrity since they pay his check but still rules are in place. If a individual violates the NFL Integrity rule that is on the team first, the NFL has no rights to discpline a individual for this. The team was fined and disciplined, they can punish Brady if he had a part, not the league.
Nervous Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Was Brady smirking on the way out of his wrist slapping? of course...he had that friggin smug look on his face.
NoSaint Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Welp I blew it Post editted. it happens! no worries.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Of course it was. Others get suspended for marijuana, but cheating? Nah, that's cool. They're saying that he didn't ask that the balls be deflated. More importantly, I don't recall if the league questioned them. I assume they did. How could the suspension not stand if they advised the league that Brady either had them deflate the balls or otherwise knew they'd been deflated?
PortlandiaEast Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) The CBA is a collection of allot of different rules and rights. One of the rights is the Commisioner has authority to make changes to discipline but he can't arbitrarilly decide what can be disciplined. Meaning he can't change on the fly the NFL Integrity rule as written in the CBA already on who can be punished. He can petition the owners, NFLPA to make the change to mean players but can't just decide this himself. The commisioner also doesn't have the right to convict someone when there is no direct evidence then claim the player impeded the process. Believe me, if Roger won this case the NFLPA would go to court stop this CBA for allowing a dictator ship to be laid in place against individual rights given in the constitution. A employee can be fired but not disciplined arbitraily outside of the constitution rights of the 5th amendment. The burden of proof for discipline comes from being found guilty beyond the reason of doubt. Roger Goodell has not been given the right to take away legal action against the NFL when it violates federal law and constitutional rights. Brady has a right to defend himself from arbitrally being called GUILTY and punished. The team however isn't afforded the same rights since they are a franchise of the NFL and are held to a higher "NFL Integrity". The Patriots as a employer hold more of a right to discipline for Integrity since they pay his check but still rules are in place. If a individual violates the NFL Integrity rule that is on the team first, the NFL has no rights to discpline a individual for this. The team was fined and disciplined, they can punish Brady if he had a part, not the league. Serious question that can be applied beyond the scope of this case: Does laying down a punishment on a violation with no real precedent constitute making it up on the fly? Rodger made a decision that he thought was in the scope of the power he had. NFLPA said no this is outside your scope. Courts agreed. Edited September 3, 2015 by PortlandiaEast
DC Tom Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 The CBA is a collection of allot of different rules and rights. One of the rights is the Commisioner has authority to make changes to discipline but he can't arbitrarilly decide what can be disciplined. Meaning he can't change on the fly the NFL Integrity rule as written in the CBA already on who can be punished. He can petition the owners, NFLPA to make the change to mean players but can't just decide this himself. The commisioner also doesn't have the right to convict someone when there is no direct evidence then claim the player impeded the process. Believe me, if Roger won this case the NFLPA would go to court stop this CBA for allowing a dictator ship to be laid in place against individual rights given in the constitution. A employee can be fired but not disciplined arbitraily outside of the constitution rights of the 5th amendment. The burden of proof for discipline comes from being found guilty beyond the reason of doubt. Roger Goodell has not been given the right to take away legal action against the NFL when it violates federal law and constitutional rights. Brady has a right to defend himself from arbitrally being called GUILTY and punished. The team however isn't afforded the same rights since they are a franchise of the NFL and are held to a higher "NFL Integrity". The Patriots as a employer hold more of a right to discipline for Integrity since they pay his check but still rules are in place. If a individual violates the NFL Integrity rule that is on the team first, the NFL has no rights to discpline a individual for this. The team was fined and disciplined, they can punish Brady if he had a part, not the league. Short version: you haven't read the CBA. It does in fact give Goodell the power to decide on the fly what is and is not detrimental to the integrity of the league and what the punishment should be. It's truly idiotic, as should have been clear to everybody in the Ray Rice case ("You hit a woman? Two games. Oh, wait, there's a video? Lifetime ban.") But that is what the CBA says, and what the NFLPA agreed to. If a individual violates the NFL Integrity rule that is on the team first, the NFL has no rights to discpline a individual for this. The team was fined and disciplined, they can punish Brady if he had a part, not the league. Where the hell did this come from? It's complete bull ****.
Buffaloed in Pa Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 It was all smoke and mirrors. Never was gonna happen.
NoSaint Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 It was all smoke and mirrors. Never was gonna happen. so are you going with the nfl purposefully crafted a punishment that literally any judge would overturn?
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