Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) It falls on the org structure set by the Pegulas http://blogs.canoe.com/krykslants/nfl/you-could-see-latest-bills-melodrama-coming-and-the-blame-it-must-be-said-falls-on-the-pegulas-but-heres-how-they-can-fix-it/ Interesting thoughts, many conveyed by posters here as well Kryk is writing as though it is certain Whaley went behind, around, or over Ryan. That is actually going against what Ryan has said publically that lines of communication are open and that the decision was an organizational decision. I don't see why Whaley or the Pegulas need to "fix" anything. They set it up so THEY are the football overlords and if Rex or Whaley disagree, they will call the shot. Why should they change that? Either Rex and Whaley are both telling the truth and they were all in the room and agreed, or there was a disagreement and the Pegulas settled it. I also don't see why the Bills need to address Tim Graham's tweet. IMO it would give it undeserved credibility. I asked in another thread "how much credibility do we give Tim Graham?" I somewhat answered my own question when in a search for a specific article I found all sorts of Graham dirt-grubbing from January about Marrone bad-mouthing TBD to Polian and thus persuading Polian not to come because Polian had so much respect for Marrone etc etc. In hindsight, it seems overblown and furor-seeking. Polians own public statement was that he didn't want as much responsibility/effort as the Pegulas wanted to hire him for (real organization effort vs. "mentoring and advisory role") and that his view of the job did shift quickly because after the QB retired and the coach left, more work was clearly going to be involved than he thought initially. Both sides expressed respect and the whole Graham story about Marrone convincing Polian not to come by bad-mouthing the Bills or revealing Bills bad-mouthing to Polian was never substantiated. I'm starting to wonder if Graham has a deep throat AKA "well placed source" in the Bills organization who is either 1) a drama llama who fluffs up the drama in every situation 2) more underinformed than Tim thinks or 3) using Tim for their own agenda Edited September 3, 2015 by Hopeful
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 Kryk is writing as though it is certain Whaley went behind, around, or over Ryan. That is actually going against what Ryan has said publically that lines of communication are open and that the decision was an organizational decision. I don't see why Whaley or the Pegulas need to "fix" anything. They set it up so THEY are the football overlords and if Rex or Whaley disagree, they will call the shot. Why should they change that? Either Rex and Whaley are both telling the truth and they were all in the room and agreed, or there was a disagreement and the Pegulas settled it. I also don't see why the Bills need to address Tim Graham's tweet. IMO it would give it undeserved credibility. I asked in another thread "how much credibility do we give Tim Graham?" I searched for a specific article and found all sorts of dirt-grubbing from January about Marrone bad-mouthing TBD to Polian and causing him not to come because he had so much respect for Marrone etc etc. In hindsight, it seems overblown and furor-seeking. Later reports have indicated that Polian wanted more money than the Pegulas wanted to pay, and that he didn't want as much responsibility/effort as the Pegulas wanted to hire him for. Both sides expressed respect and the whole Graham story about Marrone convincing Polian not to come and was never substantiated. I'm starting to wonder if Graham has a deep throat AKA "well placed source" in the Bills organization who is either 1) a drama llama who maximizes the drama in every situation 2) more underinformed than Tim thinks or 3) using Tim for their own agenda #dramallama
Pete Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) What was he supposed to do? I'm just curious. I think if they held a press conference it would be a slap in the face to Fred and he would be embarrassed having to face some questions. IMO it was not an impulse decision by Doug, How long did he know that he was going to cut Fred? He could of been stand up with Fred. Instead of sucker punching him. Terry stated that Fred would remain a Bill. Fred never saw Doug's axe coming. And Fred deserves better then that Edited September 3, 2015 by Pete
QCity Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 It falls on the org structure set by the Pegulas http://blogs.canoe.com/krykslants/nfl/you-could-see-latest-bills-melodrama-coming-and-the-blame-it-must-be-said-falls-on-the-pegulas-but-heres-how-they-can-fix-it/ Interesting thoughts, many conveyed by posters here as well He's got one thing right - this was the fault of the Pegulas. They should have never said anything or got involved back in March. The fans perceived it as a wonderful gesture at the time, but it only delayed the inevitable. It was fairly evident back then that Fred wasn't part of the team's future plans. This would have also been the best situation for Fred, as well. It would have given more teams (with more cap maneuverability at the time) a better opportunity to determine if a 34 yr old RB fit into their plans. Also it would had given Fred some time to contemplate and plan his next move, instead of yanking his kids out of school and moving across the country 2 weeks before the opener. That pained look on Rex's and Doug's face at the press conference was genuine - they knew they botched this. They didn't have to throw him a parade, but they needed to handle this tactfully and with some (any) class. Taking a 9-yr vet and the face of the franchise and blindsiding him like a 2nd string UDFA punter was not the way to go about it. I see a lot of fans that loooooove to parrot the "It's business" quote from the Godfather. Well I got news for you, there's good business and there's bad business. That was bush league.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) I don't think there is any reason to believe that Ryan was not told and in favor of the Fred situation. This - not only that Rex was told, but that it was his and his coordinator/position coach's evaluations that drove the decision. Edited September 3, 2015 by Hopeful
Lurker Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 What was he supposed to do? I'm just curious. I think if they held a press conference it would be a slap in the face to Fred and he would be embarrassed having to face some questions. Deja vu all over again.... http://espn.go.com/premium/nfl/columns/cannizzaro_mark/362518.html
Nihilarian Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Really good article here; http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-opinion/2015/9/2/9244003/bills-gm-doug-whaley-taking-heat-from-fred-jackson-release Bottom line its all on Whaley if this move doesn't work out. Frankly, I don't see anyone on the roster even close to the skills of Jackson as a backup RB. I still question this decision as Dixon, Brown, Williams all have a lot to prove once the regular season starts. IMO Jackson actually outperformed both Lynch and Spiller at times, and I gotta wonder what the fans would think if that started to happen again this year. Edited September 3, 2015 by Nihilarian
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 I see a quote from one of the paragraphs that reads, "Even at this level, fear is still a healthy motivator" Whaley sure put the fear in these players knowing, hey I better play my ass off. http://forums.colts.com/topic/39972-kravitz-growing-disconnect-between-ryan-grigson-and-chuck-pagano/page-1 I don't think that's a good read on the situation at all. If anything, the contrary - "even if I play my ass off for years and keep playing, the Turk will eventually find me". Except that the players should already know that, and accept that the payoff is the salary they get whilst playing, the team camaraderie, and the opportunity to play the game at the highest level.
Kelly the Dog Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 IMO it was not an impulse decision by Doug, How long did he know that he was going to cut Fred? He could of been stand up with Fred. Instead of sucker punching him. Terry stated that Fred would remain a Bill. Fred never saw Doug's axe coming. And Fred deserves better then that Maybe but I doubt it. I think it only happened after they realized that Karlos was rather good, after the first Panther game. There were several reports that he was leapfrogging Fred and was getting first team reps when it wasn't Shady.
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Deja vu all over again.... http://espn.go.com/premium/nfl/columns/cannizzaro_mark/362518.html wow, great link. And gulp.But life goes on in Buffalo, where the Bills remain a significant Super Bowl contender without them. Edited September 3, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Best Player Available Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 this makes for nice evening talk but in the end it is nothing but conjecture and in some extent rumor mongering. including my own views. if The man in question was considered or anyone has anything to substaniate he may have been a "PIA" behind closed doors. Then IMO,that BS should be backed up with examples,proof,or fact. The guy that was cut was no superstar prima dona like the douchebag over in Minnesota. there has never been anything negative ever said about Fred anywhere. in the locker room, community, PR events, or a single coach anywhere. In any league, school, or team he has played for.So maybe character assassination rumors should wait until someone actually in the know claims otherwise. And can publish a credible story and source The guy is a ball player, his GM in his opinion was less than honest with him. he said that publicly and the sports exchange article mentions Fred felt that way about Whaley since "I've known him" Not unusual for a manager to talk out of both sides of his mouth and a lot of posters here can attest to that I would guess. past that where's the story? other than a football blog with posters dreaming up hypothetical scenarios. this all goes back to A-Hole tim graham stirring the pot. And some national media picking it up. Without Rex Ryan being the HC in Buffalo this story would have had zero interest or traction outside of Buffalo. Guys like Dan Patrick had zero interest in even talking about it (Fred being cut) They would rather talk about ( and laugh) about Rex and his own self promotion and I am paraphrasing,""this is my last coaching job" Yea right.
Pete Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Maybe but I doubt it. I think it only happened after they realized that Karlos was rather good, after the first Panther game. There were several reports that he was leapfrogging Fred and was getting first team reps when it wasn't Shady. I agree that Karlos showed that he can play that game. And that really put a monkey wrench with all our talent at RB. Someone had to go. And when you take emotion out of it, it makes lots of sense to cut Fred(age, cap relief, special teams). And perhaps it is the right move. It just sucks that it was an undignified end, for Fred, who has been pure class.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 OK. so we're going to debate the uselessness of Tim Graham now. Can we debate the negativity of Jerry Sullivan next? Oh, hey, I have a novel idea, we could talk football!
Pete Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 wow, great link. And gulp. They cut Smith, Reed, Thomas, etc....but added Ted Washington. Those Ted Washington defenses were some of the best in Bills history. Sometimes purging can bring upon renewal
DJasper Probincrux III Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) this makes for nice evening talk but in the end it is nothing but conjecture and in some extent rumor mongering. including my own views. if The man in question was considered or anyone has anything to substaniate he may have been a "PIA" behind closed doors. Then IMO,that BS should be backed up with examples,proof,or fact. The guy that was cut was no superstar prima dona like the douchebag over in Minnesota. there has never been anything negative ever said about Fred anywhere. in the locker room, community, PR events, or a single coach anywhere. In any league, school, or team he has played for.So maybe character assassination rumors should wait until someone actually in the know claims otherwise. And can publish a credible story and source The guy is a ball player, his GM in his opinion was less than honest with him. he said that publicly and the sports exchange article mentions Fred felt that way about Whaley since "I've known him" Not unusual for a manager to talk out of both sides of his mouth and a lot of posters here can attest to that I would guess. past that where's the story? other than a football blog with posters dreaming up hypothetical scenarios. this all goes back to A-Hole tim graham stirring the pot. And some national media picking it up. Without Rex Ryan being the HC in Buffalo this story would have had zero interest or traction outside of Buffalo. Guys like Dan Patrick had zero interest in even talking about it (Fred being cut) They would rather talk about ( and laugh) about Rex and his own self promotion and I am paraphrasing,""this is my last coaching job" Yea right. OK, here's one example. From the day they benched EJ last year. From a team captain on a radio show. Reported by Matthew Fairburn. “We can’t go into panic mode and try and change everything, revamp this and revamp that. We’ve still got 12 games left in the season," running back Fred Jackson said on "The Howard Simon Show" on WGR Monday morning. “I can’t sit here and say the blame is all EJ’s, because it’s not. “It’s not one of those things where I’m going to say bench EJ and put Kyle in and it’s magically going to be better. I don’t think benching him is the right answer. I think what it is we have to go in and re-evaluate everything we’re doing. I think we’ll find the answers that way.” I'm sure management was thrilled. and to set the record straight I didn't say Fred was a PIA, I said it was possible the he was a bigger PIA than we know or want to believe which is zero. He's as bulletproof a player that has been here in a long time among the fan base. Edited September 3, 2015 by DJasper Probincrux III
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 They cut Smith, Reed, Thomas, etc....but added Ted Washington. Those Ted Washington defenses were some of the best in Bills history. Sometimes purging can bring upon renewali admittedly don't vividly remember that transition but I do remember Ted. The thing that stood out to me was how bitter and vocal guys like reed and Thurman were at the time and now they are two of the biggest ambassadors. I sincerely hope Whaley and Fred talk (in time) and though I know he his very hurt, he becomes what Thurman is (or more) to the Bills.
Best Player Available Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 OK, here's one example. From the day they benched EJ last year. From a team captain on a radio show. Reported by Matthew Fairburn. “We can’t go into panic mode and try and change everything, revamp this and revamp that. We’ve still got 12 games left in the season," running back Fred Jackson said on "The Howard Simon Show" on WGR Monday morning. “I can’t sit here and say the blame is all EJ’s, because it’s not. “It’s not one of those things where I’m going to say bench EJ and put Kyle in and it’s magically going to be better. I don’t think benching him is the right answer. I think what it is we have to go in and re-evaluate everything we’re doing. I think we’ll find the answers that way.” I'm sure management was thrilled. IDK,to me that sounds like a team captain sticking up for his QB? And the managament you may be referring to is now a line coach in Florida? team leaders don't get that tag by not talking.
Big Turk Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 i believe it was Sal who reported that "some coaches" did not approve of the move. Since Sal technically works for the team I don't know if perhaps that was an intentional leak so the players didn't look at the coaching staff as the bad guys here. Just a thought. He also said it wouldn't surprise him if the leak came from the Jackson side rather than the Bills...
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2015 Author Posted September 3, 2015 IDK,to me that sounds like a team captain sticking up for his QB? And the managament you may be referring to is now a line coach in Florida? team leaders don't get that tag by not talking.yep I really think Fred did not like Marrone. It was apparent from beginning to end.
Big Turk Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 i admittedly don't vividly remember that transition but I do remember Ted. The thing that stood out to me was how bitter and vocal guys like reed and Thurman were at the time and now they are two of the biggest ambassadors. I sincerely hope Whaley and Fred talk (in time) and though I know he his very hurt, he becomes what Thurman is (or more) to the Bills. They cut Reed, Smith and Thomas all on the same day----3 hall of famers...
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