Doc Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 The company line is that it was a unified decision. Graham is reporting that is a false front. You can decide for yourself who to believe. I believe the Graham report, but it's possible he's giving a bullshat report and I'm being duped. Or not. Fred didn't refute Whaley saying Ryan talked to him.
BillnutinHouston Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) /\ My suggestion Neg, consider yourself duped. Hang on to Tim's offhand Twitter comment at your own risk, pending clarification or source identification. Edited September 4, 2015 by BillnutinHouston
Doc Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 /\ My suggestion, consider yourself duped. Hang on to Tim's offhand Twitter comment at your own risk, pending clarification or source identification. Was this for me?
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Neg, Tim Graham is an idiot with a smartphone, just like you and just like me. He's barely more credible than either of us to boot. Why you got Tim Grahams back so hard? Screw him, he's the one trying to create this buzz about basically nothing at all. Fred is gone, we all love him but its time to move on, these players can't stay here forever. I hate Graham. Trust me, it's killing me to be taking his side in this dispute. However, since he said these are the same sources that leaked to him the news about Pegula buying the team. Since they are clearly high up in the organization, I'm forced to side with him as much as it pains me. However, you do make a point. This horse has been beaten pretty dead, and it's time to move on now that the season is about to begin. I'll still post reminders of how pissed I am at the Fred cut if we struggle at RB behind McCoy, but other than that I'm more focused on being excited for the opener. This will be my last thread on the Whaley/Freddy dispute.
BillnutinHouston Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Was this for me? No sorry, was referring to the Negative one.
Doc Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 No sorry, was referring to the Negative one. That's what I thought but the caret was pointing at my post.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 I'm not suggesting you agree with Graham's accusation he went rogue, I'm not sure why you even felt the need to make that point. Maybe you became confused and thought you were responding to a different post? As far as football ops, I'm not sure why you keep repeating yourself without reading what I write. I have pointed out to you that one football ops staffer reports to Ryan and the rest is under Player Personnel department. Here, maybe this will help you. http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-announce-changes-in-player-personnel-department/24a21e81-0340-47ff-9839-be31e882f40a You said "I think we can agree that Graham is saying Whaley went rogue by cutting Fred against the wishes of his football people" I don't agree that is what Graham said. That is why I felt the need to correct your apparent misstatement of my views. I am quite aware of the post to which I am responding, thanks for your concern. You're doing exactly what you chide me for - repeating your self without reading what I write. I'll try one more time in case it helps anyone else then I'm outta here, educate yourself or don't, I don't care. A coach with the title "football operations consultant" does not mean he's a football ops staffer, he's Ryan's liason to football ops. You repeat that "one football ops staffer reports to Ryan". That's incorrect. Football Ops and Player Personnel have different roles. Football ops report up through Brandon - they are not Whaley's "football people". Player personnel, most of the people at the link you posted, are the college and pro scouts and report through Whaley. When Graham says that "football operations and administration" were left out, he's not talking about Whaley's football people or football people at all. Whether it causes a hit to Whaley's internal reputation if true, one can't infer that. It might, it might not. It might be a sign of an internal power struggle, it might be the dying gasp of the old guard adjusting to new ways, it might be a couple of Drama Llamas alerting the media that business as usual at a professional football club with a competent GM and a not atypical reporting structure took place.
YoloinOhio Posted September 4, 2015 Author Posted September 4, 2015 @TyDunne: Doug Whaley on Fred: Says "I gather information from everybody, from RB coach to OC to head coach." Said he talked to Terry Pegula. @TyDunne: Whaley said that he informed Fred Jackson of the release with Rex Ryan. @TyDunne: Whaley said he told Terry Pegula and assumed Kim was there. "Let me ask you this: Can you make a decision without informing your boss?"
Lurker Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 @TyDunne: Whaley said he told Terry Pegula and assumed Kim was there. "Let me ask you this: Can you make a decision without informing your boss?" Bingo. If anyone should have informed "football ops" it was the CEO (Terry), to whom that department reports...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Graham's reports say he notified only Terry. Not Kim, not Rex. Graham's tweets do not say that Rex was not notified. They say that "a lot of key people...in coaching staff" There are 26 coaches listed on the Bills Front Office and a number of them have assistants. That doesn't mean Rex wasn't notified. Cappachio says Pegulas (plural) were notified.
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 You said "I think we can agree that Graham is saying Whaley went rogue by cutting Fred against the wishes of his football people" I don't agree that is what Graham said. That is why I felt the need to correct your apparent misstatement of my views. I am quite aware of the post to which I am responding, thanks for your concern. Football Ops and Player Personnel have different roles. Football ops report up through Brandon - they are not Whaley's "football people". Player personnel, most of the people at the link you posted, are the college and pro scouts and report through Whaley. When Graham says that "football operations and administration" were left out, he's not talking about Whaley's football people or football people at all. Whether it causes a hit to Whaley's internal reputation if true, one can't infer that. It might, it might not. It might be a sign of an internal power struggle, it might be the dying gasp of the old guard adjusting to new ways, it might be a couple of Drama Llamas alerting the media that business as usual at a professional football club with a competent GM and a not atypical reporting structure took place. The link I posted clearly listed the new director of football ops under the Player Personnel Department, and it was a link from the Bills themselves. I suggest you contact the Bills at once and notify them of their mistake, or just admit it's under the Player Personnel Dept. and be done with it. Either way, what do I care? If football ops, which according to the Bills is part of Player Personnel, and football coaches, are not considered football people at all, than I guess you are correct. It was only a bunch of accountants and marketing guys who wanted to be in on the loop. Don't get too bent out of shape with me if I disagree with this interpretation. Anyway, we agree on one thing. This is becoming pointless, and no longer worth wasting out time. Please feel free to keep thinking your way is right, I'll think mine, and we'll both somehow manage to move on without consensus. No hard feelings...at least from my end.
Coach Tuesday Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Hopeful vs. Negativo - this is playing out like a cosmic battle for the soul of mankind!
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 BTW, I went to Graham's alma mater Baldwin Wallace...was a senior when he was a Freshman. Didn't know him. Wish I knew then what I know now...I'd have hazed the ever-loving **** out of him.
YoloinOhio Posted September 4, 2015 Author Posted September 4, 2015 @TyDunne: More Doug Whaley on cutting Jackson: "It wasnt just me waking up one day and deciding, Hey, I want to do this.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 @TyDunne: Doug Whaley on Fred: Says "I gather information from everybody, from RB coach to OC to head coach." Said he talked to Terry Pegula. @TyDunne: Whaley said that he informed Fred Jackson of the release with Rex Ryan. @TyDunne: Whaley said he told Terry Pegula and assumed Kim was there. "Let me ask you this: Can you make a decision without informing your boss?" Yolo, You da Man. And I am liking Tyler Dunne quite a lot so far - seems to call it like he sees it but no axes to grind
Coach Tuesday Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) It would seem to me that the only person who "went rogue" is Russ. I'm sure he is behind these leaks to some degree--he is the only hold over from the Ralph days who is firmly entrenched in upper management. The "old Bills" ran a very specific model, which was based on a cost/benefit analysis, was heavily market-based/fan opinion driven, and put winning as priority number 3 behind the bottom dollar and a packed stadium. And it worked. The Bills have been a steady "success story" in the NFL for the past 20 years, despite putting a horrible product on the field. This is due to one man and one man only: Russ Brandon. I love the guy, but his job was to keep the Bills afloat in the salary cap era, and make us look like a "legitimate" football team. As you are seeing from our moves this summer, the road to being a "legitimate" football team is a different one than we have traveled of late, and most fans are adjusting slowly... which is better than the Buffalo News, who have thus far been unable to change at all. Fred Jackson is one of my favorite Bills of all time, second only to Kelly. But, sadly, his "prime" may be behind him. If we were set at QB (like Seattle), we could afford to keep a veteran running back on the team to spell the bell cow... but we can't, and we'll take 3 QBs into the season. If this decision was made 4 years ago, Fred would still be captain of the Bills, because the fans love him. But one stat I don't see brought up very much in the discussion of Fred's career is the Bills records during that time... 6-10, 6-10, 6-10, 4-12, etc. etc. That is not to say Fred is responsible for those records... he isn't. He was a ray of hope during those days. But the fact of the matter is, a football team has to be run a certain way to be that bad for that long, and the Bills were run that way by Russ. Everything was a marketing decision to put butts in the seats, regardless of the product. Toronto: Marketing decision. St. John Fisher's: Marketing decision. Terrell Owens: Marketing. and on and on and on. Well, now the Bills make FOOTBALL decisions. To win FOOTBALL games. To try to put people in the seat that way. Will it work? I hope so. But at the end of the day, the only "internal" sources that seem to care about this Fred decision are the marketing guys... who didn't get enough of a heads up.. ala, Russ Brandon. He doesn't like giving up his power and influence at one bills drive (who would), and the old model would have been to either let a guy retire on his own accord because the fans love him (Kelsay), or trash him on his way out the door because we can't afford him (Lynch, et. al). This is a relatively new phenomenon in Buffalo, to cut big names for the sake of a younger, better roster. This is my favorite post of this thread and one of my favorite posts of the offseason because it really encapsulates the last decade and a half nicely. Some of us have been saying for years that the Bills in the late Ralph years were running their business like a used car franchise, and we were begging them to transition to a business model that prioritized a winning product on the field as a way to sell tickets. I totally agree with your take - what we're seeing here is a seismic rumbling caused by the transition over to that business model that we've been begging for. Some of the "old guard" have been disempowered in the process and are making noise. But if the Pegulas are serious business owners, they'll prove their mettle right now - if I'm Kim, I called Brandon into my office this morning and said something like: "listen to me carefully - we built you up this past year, and we can just as quickly tear you down, I don't care how many offers you say you got from other teams, we'll f-ing burn you in this business if you ever pull a stunt like that again. I'm telling you, you won't work here, you won't work in sports, you won't work at Mike Barney Nissan - you'll be a dead f-ing dog. Do we understand each other?" Now, judging by how long it took them to expel Battista, I'm not counting on that happening. But if the Pegulas have learned anything this past few years, they'll come down hard on a marketing guru who just overplayed his hand. Edited September 4, 2015 by Coach Tuesday
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Hopeful vs. Negativo - this is playing out like a cosmic battle for the soul of mankind! LOL! Something like that, only slightly more significant.
ganesh Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) You know what the Bills aren't the only ones with troubles. Our first opponent is having internal problems also. I see a quote from one of the paragraphs that reads, "Even at this level, fear is still a healthy motivator" Whaley sure put the fear in these players knowing, hey I better play my ass off. http://forums.colts.com/topic/39972-kravitz-growing-disconnect-between-ryan-grigson-and-chuck-pagano/page-1 The days of re-signing a average to below average Chris Kelsay to a huge contract because he was a nice guy is gone. The Bills are aligning with the league more so in not babying their players. Jackson clearly showed his frustration by attacking Whaley. He needed to be a professional and move on. The Bills have to sign young players for the FUTURE. I think the Pegula's are ON board with this approach. After all the guy has been injured for the past four years. Consistency was never there with any of the Bills RBs. Edited September 4, 2015 by ganesh
Saxum Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Shocking. I can't wait for an article from graham complaining he no longer has access to anyone. Do you think the Bills are that smart of an organization? They could say there is not enough room in press box and put him with opposing press.
Rico Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 This is my favorite post of this thread and one of my favorite posts of the offseason because it really encapsulates the last decade and a half nicely. Some of us have been saying for years that the Bills in the late Ralph years were running their business like a used car franchise, and we were begging them to transition to a business model that prioritized a winning product on the field as a way to sell tickets. I totally agree with your take - what we're seeing here is a seismic rumbling caused by the transition over to that business model that we've been begging for. Some of the "old guard" have been disempowered in the process and are making noise. But if the Pegulas are serious business owners, they'll prove their mettle right now - if I'm Kim, I called Brandon into my office this morning and said something like: "listen to me carefully - we built you up this past year, and we can just as quickly tear you down, I don't care how many offers you say you got from other teams, we'll f-ing burn you in this business if you ever pull a stunt like that again. I'm telling you, you won't work here, you won't work in sports, you won't work at Mike Barney Nissan - you'll be a dead f-ing dog. Do we understand each other?" Now, judging by how long it took them to expel Battista, I'm not counting on that happening. But if the Pegulas have learned anything this past few years, they'll come down hard on a marketing guru who just overplayed his hand.
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