26CornerBlitz Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Sal Capaccio essentially said on WGR that Graham is Full of on Whaley with regard to the notion of not having the right people in the know about the release of Fred.
Billsmovinup Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 How many touches was Fred going to get? I was thinking about ten. He would have been a 2 million dollar cheerleader
TSOL Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Sal Capaccio essentially said on WGR that Graham is Full of on Whaley with regard to the notion of not having the right people in the know about the release of Fred. My sources tell me that this is, in fact, the case.
LeGOATski Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 I wonder how much attempted subversion goes on between NFL organizations. Conspiracy?
Billsmovinup Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 I don't get the M & T angle and find Tim Graham's tweet about it to be snide . The ad campaign has likely been in the works for weeks/months. The ad buys as well. Are the Bills supposed to tell them before they tell Fred? Are they supposed to give their sponsor some sort of heads' up about the possibility that it might happen weeks before it actually does? I doubt the time difference between when Fred was told and the rest of world found out is less than the time it's taking me to post this. In retrospect, cutting him in February would have been much better for all concerned. Apparently the M&T people don't know much about football. Don't think I would be building and ad campaign around a 34 year old running back with a new coaching staff in the house. Thurman, Andre, and Bruce got cut. If they did anyone can. Wonder if the M&T marketing people got the ax.
NoSaint Posted September 3, 2015 Posted September 3, 2015 Sal Capaccio essentially said on WGR that Graham is Full of on Whaley with regard to the notion of not having the right people in the know about the release of Fred. Shocking. I can't wait for an article from graham complaining he no longer has access to anyone.
Mr. WEO Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Apparently the M&T people don't know much about football. Don't think I would be building and ad campaign around a 34 year old running back with a new coaching staff in the house. Thurman, Andre, and Bruce got cut. If they did anyone can. Wonder if the M&T marketing people got the ax. They were building their ad campaign around the guy who is by far the most popular player on the team. What don't you get about that? They assumed what nearly everyone here did--that Fred would be on the roster on week 1. Get the "ax"? That makes no sense.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 I found the correct links and edited my post. I'm posting them below for your convenience. @ByTimGraham: There are a lot of key people in football operations, coaching staff and administration who were left out. https://twitter.com/ByTimGraham/status/639063172104720384 @ByTimGraham: He deviated from the wishes of football ops and made the decision without any heads up. https://twitter.com/ByTimGraham/status/639065107297882112 Thanks, Negativo. Appreciate that, and saw you also corrected in your original post. The contention you made was ". If, as reported, he cut Fred unilaterally and secretly against the desires of football ops, which is headed by Ryan". That was not reported, not at all, in those two tweets. We've already explained that football ops means Brandon and his crew, not Ryan. And it really doesn't matter if Ryan and Whaley go against the wishes of football ops. They're the business and marketing guys and the money people. They used to get a say, in the Bad Old Bills Days, now they don't. Going against their wishes is not "going rogue", it's aligned with the current structure. The roster decision makers are Rex Ryan/his coordinator and Whaley, and they need to keep the Pegulas, to whom they each report, in the loop. There is nothing in those tweets which says Rex was not part of the decision, or that it went against Rex's desires. That is an inference, and IMO not actually backed up in any way by those tweets. It could be true that a bunch of the assistant coaches don't know, In choosing the cuts, the proper people to consult are the assistant coaches (all of them), the money guys (to be clear on salary cap implications), and possibly player personnel (to get a feel for who else might be out there as good or better, who might be on the cutting block or available by trade). The operative word is CONSULT. Once their input is sought, Rex and Whaley have a perfect right to say "thank you, Gentlemen", retreat to their own conference room, and hash it out in private. Once they have a decision, they call up the Pegulas and say "this is what we're going to do". The coaches might like to know before anyone else, or to be consulted if it impacts them, but that's really at the discretion of Rex and Doug W. Brandon has made a BIG DEAL of "“I couldn’t be more hands off” roster decisions, leaving that to "the football guys", so by his own account, not telling him or getting his buy in is NOT "rogue". It may also be true that in the case of Fred Jackson, Brandon or one of his staff said "this is a special case - if you cut him, give us a heads up before you announce it" and the news broke without that. But there, lots of stuff could be in play. There could be a simple misunderstanding of what "heads up" meant. The marketing guys could have wanted an impractical lead time of notice that would guarantee news would leak and M&T would know before Fred did, and Rex/Whaley or both could have said "nuts to that, we're telling Fred first Bite Me Ops". Or, while Whaley was dialing up whoever wanted to know, the news could have leaked out from Jackson's side. Who knows? None of us - not you, not me, and not Timmy. Sal Capaccio essentially said on WGR that Graham is Full of on Whaley with regard to the notion of not having the right people in the know about the release of Fred. Rock. But I bet if Whaley waits for a public retraction or apology from Timmah, his coffee will get moldy or his Coke mighty stale.
dave mcbride Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 It would seem to me that the only person who "went rogue" is Russ. I'm sure he is behind these leaks to some degree--he is the only hold over from the Ralph days who is firmly entrenched in upper management. The "old Bills" ran a very specific model, which was based on a cost/benefit analysis, was heavily market-based/fan opinion driven, and put winning as priority number 3 behind the bottom dollar and a packed stadium. And it worked. The Bills have been a steady "success story" in the NFL for the past 20 years, despite putting a horrible product on the field. This is due to one man and one man only: Russ Brandon. I love the guy, but his job was to keep the Bills afloat in the salary cap era, and make us look like a "legitimate" football team. As you are seeing from our moves this summer, the road to being a "legitimate" football team is a different one than we have traveled of late, and most fans are adjusting slowly... which is better than the Buffalo News, who have thus far been unable to change at all. Fred Jackson is one of my favorite Bills of all time, second only to Kelly. But, sadly, his "prime" may be behind him. If we were set at QB (like Seattle), we could afford to keep a veteran running back on the team to spell the bell cow... but we can't, and we'll take 3 QBs into the season. If this decision was made 4 years ago, Fred would still be captain of the Bills, because the fans love him. But one stat I don't see brought up very much in the discussion of Fred's career is the Bills records during that time... 6-10, 6-10, 6-10, 4-12, etc. etc. That is not to say Fred is responsible for those records... he isn't. He was a ray of hope during those days. But the fact of the matter is, a football team has to be run a certain way to be that bad for that long, and the Bills were run that way by Russ. Everything was a marketing decision to put butts in the seats, regardless of the product. Toronto: Marketing decision. St. John Fisher's: Marketing decision. Terrell Owens: Marketing. and on and on and on. Well, now the Bills make FOOTBALL decisions. To win FOOTBALL games. To try to put people in the seat that way. Will it work? I hope so. But at the end of the day, the only "internal" sources that seem to care about this Fred decision are the marketing guys... who didn't get enough of a heads up.. ala, Russ Brandon. He doesn't like giving up his power and influence at one bills drive (who would), and the old model would have been to either let a guy retire on his own accord because the fans love him (Kelsay), or trash him on his way out the door because we can't afford him (Lynch, et. al). This is a relatively new phenomenon in Buffalo, to cut big names for the sake of a younger, better roster. I disagree with the cut, but this is a good take.
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Thanks, Negativo. Appreciate that, and saw you also corrected in your original post. The contention you made was ". If, as reported, he cut Fred unilaterally and secretly against the desires of football ops, which is headed by Ryan". That was not reported, not at all, in those two tweets.... Administration is Brandon's side, and probably refers to the M&T fiasco. Football ops I infer to mean Pro Player Personnel, which is the department under which "football ops" is listed. I also pointed out that a new "Football Ops Consultant" by the name of Pat Meyer is on Ryan's staff, and he reports directly to Rex. From the reading I've done, the roles of "football ops" is sort of a hybrid between cap administration and scouting/evaluation. Anyway, we're going in circles. I think we can agree that Graham is saying Whaley went rogue by cutting Fred against the wishes of his football people, and failed to notify them or the operations team before pulling the trigger. One can infer this is a significant hit to his reputation internally if true. Now, you may think that Graham is full of crap. You may think he's just making this up for ratings and clicks. I suggest if that were the case Rex, Russ and Terry would by now have made a statement in support of Whaley and wholly denied the "went rogue" allegations. Their silence is speaks volumes.
Doc Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Administration is Brandon's side, and probably refers to the M&T fiasco. Football ops I infer to mean Pro Player Personnel, which is the department under which "football ops" is listed. I also pointed out that a new "Football Ops Consultant" by the name of Pat Meyer is on Ryan's staff, and he reports directly to Rex. From the reading I've done, the roles of "football ops" is sort of a hybrid between cap administration and scouting/evaluation. Anyway, we're going in circles. I think we can agree that Graham is saying Whaley went rogue by cutting Fred against the wishes of his football people, and failed to notify them or the operations team before pulling the trigger. One can infer this is a significant hit to his reputation internally if true. Now, you may think that Graham is full of crap. You may think he's just making this up for ratings and clicks. I suggest if that were the case Rex, Russ and Terry would by now have made a statement in support of Whaley and wholly denied the "went rogue" allegations. Their silence is speaks volumes. Or they don't want to dignify it with a reponse.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) Administration is Brandon's side, and probably refers to the M&T fiasco. Football ops I infer to mean Pro Player Personnel, which is the department under which "football ops" is listed. I also pointed out that a new "Football Ops Consultant" by the name of Pat Meyer is on Ryan's staff, and he reports directly to Rex. From the reading I've done, the roles of "football ops" is sort of a hybrid between cap administration and scouting/evaluation. Anyway, we're going in circles. I think we can agree that Graham is saying Whaley went rogue by cutting Fred against the wishes of his football people, and failed to notify them or the operations team before pulling the trigger. One can infer this is a significant hit to his reputation internally if true. Now, you may think that Graham is full of crap. You may think he's just making this up for ratings and clicks. I suggest if that were the case Rex, Russ and Terry would by now have made a statement in support of Whaley and wholly denied the "went rogue" allegations. Their silence is speaks volumes. No, Negitivo, we cannot agree on this. Whaley controls the roster. He has the responsibility to seek input, but IT IS NOT GOING ROGUE if he doesn't listen to everyone. He CAN'T listen to everyone. There are always going to be WR coaches who insist they MUST have 6 guys and RB coaches who want to keep an extra guy until they know for sure McCoy is 100% and finance guys who say "you can't keep our 14th highest paid player as a backup, gotta cut him before the season" and ST coach who says "these are the guys I need to make it work. Then Whaley has to decide with Rex and get buy-in from Pegulas. Whaley doesn't have to call them all back in and explain his reasoning, much less accede to all their wishes. It is not going rogue if he doesn't. It is not going rogue if he decides, maybe for good reason, not to notify ops people before he tells Fred. It is within his rights and his job description. I don't think Graham is making this up - I think he has sources and they're saying what he's reporting. But I think his sources are leading him around by his bits and parts and he pulled the trigger and tweeted before sorting out what it really meant in his hurry to "get in a story" and generate buzz. And that he did. If I were Whaley, I would NOT want the organization giving Graham the extra credence of calling a presser to address his remarks. If someone takes a dump on your lawn, you don't call a public presser to explain that your lawn is not a toilet. You clean it up quietly and take measures to address if it happens again. By the way, Football Ops is under Brandon. But at least you've deduced correctly that it isn't headed by Ryan and it doesn't mean the coaches. Edited September 4, 2015 by Hopeful
BillnutinHouston Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Thanks. The tweet is really bothering me. I feel that if reporters want to use Twitter to publish breaking news, they have a journalistic responsibility to follow it up with longer explanation not possible in Twitter. And, their peers have a responsibility to follow it up, not just cite their colleague's tweet as a source. Worse, Graham made his tweet impossible for Whaley or Rex or the Bills organization to refute, since the first thing he said is that the Bills organization will maintain unity when speaking publically. So now we have it all over the news media that Whaley "went rogue" by cutting Jackson, without any explanation of exactly what that means - who was allegedly left out of the loop? Anyone reiterating Graham's tweet should provide clarification from him on what "going rogue" meant - who allegedly wasn't consulted or informed who should have been? and seek comment from Rex Ryan, Whaley, and the Pegulas. Then they'd have a story. Without that, they have Middle-school Girls Gossip Hour. Rex has stated that the decision to cut Jackson was an organizational decision and has used the pronoun "we": "This is a really hard decision, but we felt the decision that we made, especially at the time we made it, was appropriate." Whaley has said that the Pegulas were informed (and even Graham later acknowledged this) and implied that both he and Rex were involved in communicating to Jackson There has been all kinds of speculation that what "rogue" means is that Whaley acted without the Pegulas or HC knowledge, but even Graham has backpedaled on the Pegulas and as long as Rex and Whaley state that they were both in the loop, I really don't think an unnamed source and a tweet with the unexplained term "rogue" are enough grounds to question that. The only further information that Graham has provided, that I've seen, is that Whaley's decision embarassed M&T bank, which it really shouldn't be, if M&T has competent ad agency The problem faced by Whaley and Ryan and the Bills is that any further statement they make goes for naught in the face of Graham's tweet since, you know, they're going to maintain public unity even if they're privately screaming at each other, cuz Timmah sez that's what they'll do. Like Whaley or dislike Whaley, that's really a scummy situation to put anyone in. Golden Rule, One, Violated. I think Tim Graham needs to either put up (follow up his tweet with specific information about who what when where - you know, like a journalist?) or issue a public apology to Whaley for libeling him. I think every reporter who has lazily quoted Graham without any follow-up or new information should do likewise or transfer to the gossip or horoscope section of their organization. And I think posters here who are assuming what "rogue" means without any confirmation and in the face of contrary statements from the people involved should pause and think about what they're doing. I don't expect that to happen because I understand this is real life, but I think it should. OK, I'm done now. Great post brother!
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 No, Negitivo, we cannot agree on this. Whaley controls the roster. He has the responsibility to seek input, but IT IS NOT GOING ROGUE if he doesn't listen to everyone. He CAN'T listen to everyone. There are always going to be WR coaches who insist they MUST have 6 guys and RB coaches who want to keep an extra guy until they know for sure McCoy is 100% and finance guys who say "you can't keep our 14th highest paid player as a backup, gotta cut him before the season" and ST coach who says "these are the guys I need to make it work. Then Whaley has to decide with Rex and get buy-in from Pegulas. Whaley doesn't have to call them all back in and explain his reasoning, much less accede to all their wishes. It is not going rogue if he doesn't. It is not going rogue if he decides, maybe for good reason, not to notify ops people before he tells Fred. It is within his rights and his job description. I don't think Graham is making this up - I think he has sources and they're saying what he's reporting. But I think his sources are leading him around by his bits and parts and he pulled the trigger and tweeted before sorting out what it really meant in his hurry to "get in a story" and generate buzz. And that he did. If I were Whaley, I would NOT want the organization giving Graham the extra credence of calling a presser to address his remarks. If someone takes a dump on your lawn, you don't call a public presser to explain that your lawn is not a toilet. You clean it up quietly and take measures to address if it happens again. By the way, Football Ops is under Brandon. But at least you've deduced correctly that it isn't headed by Ryan and it doesn't mean the coaches. I'm not suggesting you agree with Graham's accusation he went rogue, I'm not sure why you even felt the need to make that point. Maybe you became confused and thought you were responding to a different post? As far as football ops, I'm not sure why you keep repeating yourself without reading what I write. I have pointed out to you that one football ops staffer reports to Ryan and the rest is under Player Personnel department. Here, maybe this will help you. http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-announce-changes-in-player-personnel-department/24a21e81-0340-47ff-9839-be31e882f40a
Doc Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 So Whaley cleared it with Terry (Kim) and Ryan. And yet he went "rogue"? Those are the 3 most important people. Who else/how many more people was he supposed to run it by?
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 So Whaley cleared it with Terry (Kim) and Ryan. And yet he went "rogue"? Those are the 3 most important people. Who else/how many more people was he supposed to run it by? Graham's reports say he notified only Terry. Not Kim, not Rex.
TSOL Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Neg, Tim Graham is an idiot with a smartphone, just like you and just like me. He's barely more credible than either of us to boot. Why you got Tim Grahams back so hard? Screw him, he's the one trying to create this buzz about basically nothing at all. Fred is gone, we all love him but its time to move on, these players can't stay here forever.
Lurker Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 (edited) I have pointed out to you that one football ops staffer reports to Ryan and the rest is under Player Personnel department. Here, maybe this will help you. http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Bills-announce-changes-in-player-personnel-department/24a21e81-0340-47ff-9839-be31e882f40a Pat Meyer was hired an an assistant to the assistant OL coach (Kurt Anderson) during the Kromer fiasco. Just because his title includes the words "football operations" doesn't mean he's an "ops" person--he's a coach. http://www.scout.com/nfl/bills/story/1568764-buffalo-bills-hire-pat-meyer The folks included in the link you posted all report to Whaley... Edited September 4, 2015 by Lurker
Doc Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Graham's reports say he notified only Terry. Not Kim, not Rex. Whaley said that he and Ryan informed Jackson he was being cut. So Ryan obviously knew beforehand.
negativo Posted September 4, 2015 Posted September 4, 2015 Whaley said that he and Ryan informed Jackson he was being cut. So Ryan obviously knew beforehand. The company line is that it was a unified decision. Graham is reporting that is a false front. You can decide for yourself who to believe. I believe the Graham report, but it's possible he's giving a bullshat report and I'm being duped. Or not.
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