PolishDave Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 OH SWEET BUTTERY CRAP, WILL YOU STOP TWISTING MY WORDS. *deep breath* I am not against the deep ball. I am against stalling out drives. As such, I support the QB who has done the best and most consistent drive management. Taylor has done so using the run game, his legs, and decent short to intermediate passes. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Deep strikes are great, but if that ability comes with QB play which occasionally takes the risky play, and you start seeing three and outs/turnover risks you have to balance the risk and reward. You aren't wasting talent if you don't constantly go deep. You are if you load up on stalled drives and leave your D hanging. Edit: Regarding "longer drives which score fewer points had one caveat: Early in the game. Beating teams down early helps if you need to speed it up in the fourth. I think that you just brought up what most of the "let's start EJ" guys are missing. Historically, the guy doesn't move the chains well enough. If given a clean pocket and time to throw, EJ shows moments of being an excellent passer. But that isn't how real football is played. During regular season games, if your strength is throwing a deep ball well and your weakness is letting broken pockets turn into sacks and miscues, then guess what the opposing team is going to try to do. They are going to do their best to disrupt the pocket on every passing situation. They aren't going to give you clean pockets if they can help it. Does anyone think that, during the regular season, our offensive line is really that good to give any one of our QB's that much time to throw out of a perfect pocket like they did in this last preseason game? We won't really know who the best QB is until we see other teams game plan against them. Last year, we saw what happens with EJ when other teams game planned against him. Maybe he is better this year. We won't really know until we see teams try to take away his strengths and exploit his weaknesses. We have seen teams game plan against a Matt Cassel led offense. And the result has been less than impressive from Cassel's standpoint more times than not. Which is how the Bills landed him in the first place. If he was that great of a veteran, the Bills wouldn't have got a shot at him. We haven't seen teams game plan against Tyrod Taylor. And we won't really know how he plays under those circumstances unless/until we see it happen. Maybe he is great or maybe the other team successfully contains him and his arm. We won't know until we see it. Of the 3 quarterbacks, he presents the most "hope" for being hard to stop. Nothing he or anyone else has done this preseason gives you any proof otherwise. All he has done is play at a high level.
TH3 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 That's actually proper news. Those neighbors of your connections are not as tight mouthed as they might think they are. I really don't want to put too many dots on paper - well this paper.....I was like "whoa....didn't think about that scenario....."
Dibs Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I stand by that, if you are playing a high output offense like Brady, or the Eagles the way you beat them is to keep them off the field. You gobble up time, you get their defense on the field as break them down while keeping ours fresh. You don't get that trying because 1 out of three times you're able to connect on a deep throw. That might be what you meant to say, but what you actually said was.... "...connecting on incredible deep balls is fantastic, but that means the defense comes right back out against the likes of Brady, Luck, Eli, Romo and Bradford (who we are all likely to play) to shred and wear down your D. I will take a 8 minute drive for only a field goal in the 1st quarter, because that means opposing D is worn down in the 4th, when it matters." Without the addition of the "1 out of 3 times" concept, the statement is bad. I didn't mean to cause you angst, but I don't know you well enough to assume that your original statement wasn't precisely what you meant.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) There seems to be a lot of talk about Cassel and the ground and pound approach. Ground and pound has more to do with who is carrying the Rock and who is blocking then who is handing it off. I am pretty EJ and TT can hand it off just as well as Cassel. The question is can both throw the intermediate/ short passes that are normally associated with that philosophy and do you need it. I think a team chooses G&P because of deficiencies and QB if you do not have them then I would think you change your game plan. Sticking with G&P just because you said you were going to at an opening press conference and disregarding the fact that might have entered the equation after the fact seems a little silly, no? Edited August 31, 2015 by A Dog Named Kelso
BackInDaDay Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Ah, fair enough. I definitely think the deep ball has a nice place in the offense we're building. I just expect it to be a wildcard, not a method to maintaining drives. I do think our best shot against Indy will be to keep Luck off the field as much as possible though. my thoughts are that with either Taylor or Manuel at QB - rather than Cassell - Roman will be able to spread the D to achieve multiple mis-matches in to run or pass. he will be aggressive until he can't be, and when the scoreboard and field position favors us, Ryan is going to let the dogs out. under such circumstances, i can't think of an opposing QB or O lineman who'd want to be on the field with our pass rush edit - consider being behind this 8-ball before half-time.. this is when games spin out of control for OCs Edited August 31, 2015 by BackInDaDay
LB3 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I have connections who have a neighbor who is inside OBD - always tight mouthed - but said the real issue is they really can only keep 2 of the three - they don't want/have space for 3 qb's out of the 53.... If this is the case, they've gotta keep EJ over Cassel (I'm assuming Taylor is a lock). He's just more valuable. If Taylor (or EJ) steps up and becomes the guy this year, the other is the guy who showed a ton of promise this year but just lost out in a tight competition to a QB who's on the rise. The trade value would be there for either one that I don't believe would be there for Cassel. I also don't believe Cassel is the "safe" option as a backup. #ABC
LB3 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) How can we not start Superman. Your pic does look a little better. Edited August 31, 2015 by LBSeeBallLBGetBall
Canadian Bills Fan Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Oh please start Taylor and not Meh CBF
Wraith Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think that you just brought up what most of the "let's start EJ" guys are missing. Historically, the guy doesn't move the chains well enough. Got any data to support this claim? I don't recall an exceptional number of three and outs or failed drives in general relative to the league.
PolishDave Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Got any data to support this claim? I don't recall an exceptional number of three and outs or failed drives in general relative to the league. Last season... If you want to forget last season then you could use Game 2 in this preseason. First three possessions = 1 first down maybe 2. Plus he got sacked 3 times in 3 possessions. Fumbled in the red zone on the fourth possession that he otherwise played very well in. Can't say anything against the last game he played in. He played better than anyone would have expected. That was probably the best performance of his career I would think. But, historically in regular season games, he just doesn't move the chains well. There is a probably a better quarterback on this team who moves the ball better than the others and also possesses the big play threat. His jersey doesn't say "Manuel" on it. You are entitled to your own opinion. That is mine. Edited August 31, 2015 by PolishDave
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) That's actually proper news. Those neighbors of your connections are not as tight mouthed as they might think they are. This. In view of both Rex and Whaley being quoted as saying they can keep 3 QB on the roster several times, it's actually big news. There seems to be a lot of talk about Cassel and the ground and pound approach. Ground and pound has more to do with who is carrying the Rock and who is blocking then who is handing it off. Yep, This. Well, kind of. The ability to correctly read the D and make adjustments quickly is needed, and the question is which of the 3 QB will bring this ability. Edited August 31, 2015 by Hopeful
YattaOkasan Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Last season... If you want to forget last season then you could use Game 2 in this preseason. First three possessions = 1 first down maybe 2. Plus he got sacked 3 times in 3 possessions. Fumbled in the red zone on the fourth possession that he otherwise played very well in. Can't say anything against the last game he played in. He played better than anyone would have expected. That was probably the best performance of his career I would think. But, historically in regular season games, he just doesn't move the chains well. There is a probably a better quarterback on this team who moves the ball better than the others and also possesses the big play threat. His jersey doesn't say "EJ Manuel" on it. You are entitled to your own opinion. That is mine. So.... no data then...just opinion?
A Dog Named Kelso Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Last season... If you want to forget last season then you could use Game 2 in this preseason. First three possessions = 1 first down maybe 2. Plus he got sacked 3 times in 3 possessions. Fumbled in the red zone on the fourth possession that he otherwise played very well in. Can't say anything against the last game he played in. He played better than anyone would have expected. That was probably the best performance of his career I would think. But, historically in regular season games, he just doesn't move the chains well. There is a probably a better quarterback on this team who moves the ball better than the others and also possesses the big play threat. His jersey doesn't say "EJ Manuel" on it. You are entitled to your own opinion. That is mine. Who's jersey actually says that? Edited August 31, 2015 by A Dog Named Kelso
PolishDave Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 So.... no data then...just opinion? If you want an understanding of how I make judgments about football, then read this thread. Who's jersey actually says that? Isn't it obvious.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 If you want an understanding of how I make judgments about football, then read this thread. Isn't it obvious. No ... as there is no one with a jersey that says "EJ Manuel".
PolishDave Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) No ... as there is no one with a jersey that says "EJ Manuel". Nice one. Fixed it. Edited August 31, 2015 by PolishDave
YattaOkasan Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 If you want an understanding of how I make judgments about football, then read this thread. I read the initial post, but didn't go through the thread. I can understand you want to view each series individually. I think context is important too. However, you wanted to say EJ had more 3 and outs than the other QBs (correct me if I'm wrong). I agree this would be an important consideration, but I need to see some data. I know he has had more 3 and outs this preseason, but I think the original request for data was if EJ had 3 and outs at a higher rate than average during the last two seasons. I honestly don't know and would be interested (my guess is yes because our offense hasn't been great). I can get on board with the idea that Tyrod can lead to fewer 3 and outs because he will have 3rd and manageables (because of his legs) an above average amount of the time. I also can get on board with EJ having 3rd and manageables an above average amount of the time. The thought being that EJ can stretch a defense which would allow more running room. However, all I have is conjecture without data. I'm not so interested in how you make judgements about football as I am in about how I make judgements about football. To do that I wanted some data (you had/have a chance to convince me). If you don't provide data it won't be the end of the world but your argument is much less convincing.
PolishDave Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I read the initial post, but didn't go through the thread. I can understand you want to view each series individually. I think context is important too. However, you wanted to say EJ had more 3 and outs than the other QBs (correct me if I'm wrong). I agree this would be an important consideration, but I need to see some data. I know he has had more 3 and outs this preseason, but I think the original request for data was if EJ had 3 and outs at a higher rate than average during the last two seasons. I honestly don't know and would be interested (my guess is yes because our offense hasn't been great). I can get on board with the idea that Tyrod can lead to fewer 3 and outs because he will have 3rd and manageables (because of his legs) an above average amount of the time. I also can get on board with EJ having 3rd and manageables an above average amount of the time. The thought being that EJ can stretch a defense which would allow more running room. However, all I have is conjecture without data. I'm not so interested in how you make judgements about football as I am in about how I make judgements about football. To do that I wanted some data (you had/have a chance to convince me). If you don't provide data it won't be the end of the world but your argument is much less convincing. Nope. Not my words. I never said nor intended to imply anything about 3 and outs. My implication is that with EJ Manuel in there, the offense doesn't move the chains well enough. He has moved the chains well at times (which is why people talk about his moments of greatness), just not well enough for me. That's all. As for the stat thing, you have to read that other thread (which ins't very long by the way) in order to get why I am not going to bother to do all the research it takes to dig up every last stat which in the end will end up being a meaningless stat anyway. It would be a giant waste of my time. No thanks. My goal isn't to convince you in particular of anything. You live in a free (mostly free) country. You are entitled to have an opinion and its okay if its different than mine it should be the same as mine.
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