Dibs Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 .... EJ connecting on incredible deep balls is fantastic, but that means the defense comes right back out against the likes of Brady, Luck, Eli, Romo and Bradford (who we are all likely to play) to shred and wear down your D. I will take a 8 minute drive for only a field goal in the 1st quarter, because that means opposing D is worn down in the 4th, when it matters. .... So scoring less points is the best tactic for winning games. Got it.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 FireChan, on 30 Aug 2015 - 12:55 PM, said: Uhm, you have two guys who were both pretty good in preseason, but one who was better in practice? How else do you expect someone to evaluate a player? Names in a hat? We can do game film of their previous years, but I don't think we wanna go down that road. Practice?
1billsfan Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 So scoring less points is the best tactic for winning games. Got it. There seems to be a number of Bills fans who don't understand that the margin of error becomes so much smaller when you play that long drive, don't screw up game. Going that route essentially locks you into a "one and done" playoff appearance. That is why there is no way Rex picks Cassel over Taylor or EJ Manuel. Rex may say he wants ground and pound, but I think he wants a championship even more. He's a smart man who knows his ticket to a Superbowl win is with either Taylor or Manuel. Will the Bills lose some games because of interceptions? Yup. But come playoff time they will be in position to actually win the whole thing with a wide open style and a great defense.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I disagree with the premise that a big play offense is not preferable. The object of the game is to score more points than your opponent. For every 13-play drive that ends in a TD, that's a bunch more plays where something negative can happen for your offense (fumble, INT, penalty, injury). There is not a coach in the league who wouldn't like to see his offense hit a long TD on as many plays as possible. Big plays lead to, well, leads. And then the other team has to do things they don't necessarily want to do -- which is suicide against a Rex Ryan defense. So scoring less points is the best tactic for winning games. Got it. I think you guys are taking me a bit out of context. If Fred Jackson scampers off to a long running touchdown I am sure as hell not going to ask that he walk it 20 yards back. But do you think that we are going to win in a high speed slug out with some of the more offensively minded teams? As better I feel about our quarterback situation than I did at the beginning of the offseason I still think that our best option is a control game. We have the home run playmakers who can take small short plays and turn them into big gains. That doesn't necessarily making deep throws down the field. I'll take an efficient offense moving off and that grinds the opponents down so that their dog tired later in the game. Again let's go over what Rex said when he was first hired. We are going to ground and pound. Ground and pound. Ground and pound. We will run it 50 times a game if we can. Every minute we have the offense in possession is our opponents nor scoring. A long drive for points early that's awesome well in the fourth quarter. That is my biggest objection to Cassel. cassel can sustain drives but so far he hasn't scored any points. To me Taylor is splitting the baby just right between being efficient and consistent and still giving us big play potential. IF EJ is the guy I'll be thrilled, but the talking heads are coming down on Cassel or Taylor and of those two I am sure as hello who I want starting.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) EJ connecting on incredible deep balls is fantastic, but that means the defense comes right back out against the likes of Brady, Luck, Eli, Romo and Bradford (who we are all likely to play) to shred and wear down your D. I will take a 8 minute drive for only a field goal in the 1st quarter, because that means opposing D is worn down in the 4th, when it matters. To this one point - 6 plays and 13 points (failed 2 pt conv). Dude, I'll take that type of play every day!!! Yes, it was a meaningless preseason game. If I heard this correctly - The defense was not given plays and were to communicate with each other to figure it out for themselves. If not for the 3 huge PI calls against Darby and Gilmore(?) would the Steelers have marched down the field? Hard to say but it didn't look like it. This good sir is part of the issue. Go deep and you just might get anywhere from a 15 to 30 yard call in your favor. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2015&seasonType=PRE&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1 Passing stats #40 - TT avg yards per pass play 7.6, 0 passing TD's, 0 INT, longest pass 29 yds, passes - 20+ yds 2, 40+ yds 0 Rate 98.3 #9 - EJ avg yards per pass play 11.9, 4 passing TD's, 0 INT, longest pass 67 yds, passes - 20+ yds 5, 40+ yds 2 Rate 146.9 Let me reiterate - The Bills have speed at WR and TE w/ Clay. Use the speed to stretch the field and go deep. Edited August 31, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever
FireChan Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 You've argued for months that EJ sucks so why should anyone buy into anything regarding the QB position from you or from any of the other EJ haters? As for the "competent team" argument, there was a huge drop off in production from Brady to Cassel. That team was a well oiled machine on both sides of the ball and Cassel did the only thing he knows how to do, not screw it up too much. If that's your bar for the Bills starter then that's just plain sad. EJ had Doug Marrone coaching him, a man who was so smart he quit his NFL head coaching job and is now the offensive line coach for the Jaguars. He didn't have Bill Belichick or Josh McDaniels like Cassel had. Now he's got Greg Roman and EJ already looks miles ahead of Matt Cassel in terms of NFL starting material, yet you are still going back to the 2008 Pats to try to boost your argument for Matt Cassel? You need to hang it up already. Marrone is a stupid man and he was the problem, not EJ. I'm not talking about EJ right now. Nice tangent. There seems to be a number of Bills fans who don't understand that the margin of error becomes so much smaller when you play that long drive, don't screw up game. Going that route essentially locks you into a "one and done" playoff appearance. That is why there is no way Rex picks Cassel over Taylor or EJ Manuel. Rex may say he wants ground and pound, but I think he wants a championship even more. He's a smart man who knows his ticket to a Superbowl win is with either Taylor or Manuel. Will the Bills lose some games because of interceptions? Yup. But come playoff time they will be in position to actually win the whole thing with a wide open style and a great defense. The Seahawks won a Super Bowl doing it.
eball Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think you guys are taking me a bit out of context. If Fred Jackson scampers off to a long running touchdown I am sure as hell not going to ask that he walk it 20 yards back. But do you think that we are going to win in a high speed slug out with some of the more offensively minded teams? As better I feel about our quarterback situation than I did at the beginning of the offseason I still think that our best option is a control game. We have the home run playmakers who can take small short plays and turn them into big gains. That doesn't necessarily making deep throws down the field. I'll take an efficient offense moving off and that grinds the opponents down so that their dog tired later in the game. Again let's go over what Rex said when he was first hired. We are going to ground and pound. Ground and pound. Ground and pound. We will run it 50 times a game if we can. Every minute we have the offense in possession is our opponents nor scoring. A long drive for points early that's awesome well in the fourth quarter. That is my biggest objection to Cassel. cassel can sustain drives but so far he hasn't scored any points. To me Taylor is splitting the baby just right between being efficient and consistent and still giving us big play potential. IF EJ is the guy I'll be thrilled, but the talking heads are coming down on Cassel or Taylor and of those two I am sure as hello who I want starting. Not taking you out of context at all. Yes, with the skill on Buffalo's defense I do think the Bills can win high-scoring affairs -- because they're not going to give up a ton of points. Rex said what he said because he walked into a situation with NO QB. What's he going to say -- we're going to wing it around? Yes, the Bills are going to play great defense and emphasize the running game. The 90s Bills emphasized the running game also, but they weren't "playing it safe." The reason we aren't hearing who the starting QB will be is because suddenly Rex and Roman may be realizing the Bills don't have to play the "safe" game on offense.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think you guys are taking me a bit out of context. If Fred Jackson scampers off to a long running touchdown I am sure as hell not going to ask that he walk it 20 yards back. But do you think that we are going to win in a high speed slug out with some of the more offensively minded teams? As better I feel about our quarterback situation than I did at the beginning of the offseason I still think that our best option is a control game. We have the home run playmakers who can take small short plays and turn them into big gains. That doesn't necessarily making deep throws down the field. I'll take an efficient offense moving off and that grinds the opponents down so that their dog tired later in the game. Again let's go over what Rex said when he was first hired. We are going to ground and pound. Ground and pound. Ground and pound. We will run it 50 times a game if we can. Every minute we have the offense in possession is our opponents nor scoring. A long drive for points early that's awesome well in the fourth quarter. That is my biggest objection to Cassel. cassel can sustain drives but so far he hasn't scored any points. To me Taylor is splitting the baby just right between being efficient and consistent and still giving us big play potential. IF EJ is the guy I'll be thrilled, but the talking heads are coming down on Cassel or Taylor and of those two I am sure as hello who I want starting. Ground and pound can only be done if opponents don't stack the box abd cover 5 - 10 yards down field. If you have a scrambling QB and or "the safe bet" dinking and dunking you will have a hard time achieving the goal. imo
Dibs Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think you guys are taking me a bit out of context. If Fred Jackson scampers off to a long running touchdown I am sure as hell not going to ask that he walk it 20 yards back. But do you think that we are going to win in a high speed slug out with some of the more offensively minded teams? As better I feel about our quarterback situation than I did at the beginning of the offseason I still think that our best option is a control game. We have the home run playmakers who can take small short plays and turn them into big gains. That doesn't necessarily making deep throws down the field. I'll take an efficient offense moving off and that grinds the opponents down so that their dog tired later in the game. Again let's go over what Rex said when he was first hired. We are going to ground and pound. Ground and pound. Ground and pound. We will run it 50 times a game if we can. Every minute we have the offense in possession is our opponents nor scoring. A long drive for points early that's awesome well in the fourth quarter. That is my biggest objection to Cassel. cassel can sustain drives but so far he hasn't scored any points. To me Taylor is splitting the baby just right between being efficient and consistent and still giving us big play potential. IF EJ is the guy I'll be thrilled, but the talking heads are coming down on Cassel or Taylor and of those two I am sure as hello who I want starting. A ground and pound game is not mutually exclusive from deep passing(see Big Ben's early years). Pound that ground as much as you want.....but when you pass, if you can achieve a successful deep pass, you would chose that over a successful short pass. Added to that, the G&P would open up the deep ball....and the deep ball would help the G&P more than the short ball.
BackInDaDay Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) To this one point - 6 plays and 13 points (failed 2 pt conv). Dude, I'll take that type of play every day!!! Yes, it was a meaningless preseason game. If I heard this correctly - The defense was not given plays and were to communicate with each other to figure it out for themselves. If not for the 3 huge PI calls against Darby and Gilmore(?) would the Steelers have marched down the field? Hard to say but it didn't look like it. This good sir is part of the issue. Go deep and you just might get anywhere from a 15 to 30 yard call in your favor. http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2015&seasonType=PRE&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1 Passing stats #40 - TT avg yards per pass play 7.6, 0 passing TD's, 0 INT, longest pass 29 yds, passes - 20+ yds 2, 40+ yds 0 Rate 98.3 #9 - EJ avg yards per pass play 11.9, 4 passing TD's, 0 INT, longest pass 67 yds, passes - 20+ yds 5, 40+ yds 2 Rate 146.9 Let me reiterate - The Bills have speed at WR and TE w/ Clay. Use the speed to stretch the field and go deep. ..and let Shady and Fred slash them edit.. this is roman's O.. more men at the poa Edited August 31, 2015 by BackInDaDay
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 ..and let Shady and Fred slash them That too!
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I never thought I'd be coming down on FireChan's side here, but yeah, what I've been saying is the Seahawk model. It was also the 49ers model. And "heavy run game and strong defense with a streaky QB" was the Giants and Ravens model. Last year, I would have killed for a 92% completion rate, 9.4 YPA QB performance.
1billsfan Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 The Seahawks won a Super Bowl doing it. McCoy is not a "ground and pound" style running back. If they had Lynch I would expect "ground and pound" from Rex and Roman. Don't take everything Rex says as the truth. I think he was just acting like the tough guy saying that "we're gonna be ground and pound" stuff in his introduction speech. IMO the Bills will still run it a lot, but they will have an equally effective passing attack. I expect to see around a 50-50 run/pass ratio.
BackInDaDay Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) A ground and pound game is not mutually exclusive from deep passing(see Big Ben's early years). Pound that ground as much as you want.....but when you pass, if you can achieve a successful deep pass, you would chose that over a successful short pass. Added to that, the G&P would open up the deep ball....and the deep ball would help the G&P more than the short ball. looks like a couple of guys here could start assisting Coach Roman Edited August 31, 2015 by BackInDaDay
Dibs Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 McCoy is not a "ground and pound" style running back. If they had Lynch I would expect "ground and pound" from Rex and Roman. Don't take everything Rex says as the truth. I think he was just acting like the tough guy saying that "we're gonna be ground and pound" stuff in his introduction speech. IMO the Bills will still run it a lot, but they will have an equally effective passing attack. I expect to see around a 50-50 run/pass ratio. I think we could G&P if we wanted. It can simply mean running a lot, not necessarily the style of running. But I think you are correct regardless. Having Sammy and Woods, and adding Harvin and Clay would be a bit of a waste if we didn't pass the ball enough to take advantage of those weapons IMO.
BackInDaDay Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) McCoy is not a "ground and pound" style running back. If they had Lynch I would expect "ground and pound" from Rex and Roman. Don't take everything Rex says as the truth. I think he was just acting like the tough guy saying that "we're gonna be ground and pound" stuff in his introduction speech. IMO the Bills will still run it a lot, but they will have an equally effective passing attack. I expect to see around a 50-50 run/pass ratio. i think all this 'ground and pound' talk was motivated by his doubts in the QB situation - just like the Jets.. he and Roman will attack how and when they can.. and we're right back to who gives them a more dynamic O Edited August 31, 2015 by BackInDaDay
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 McCoy is not a "ground and pound" style running back. If they had Lynch I would expect "ground and pound" from Rex and Roman. Don't take everything Rex says as the truth. I think he was just acting like the tough guy saying that "we're gonna be ground and pound" stuff in his introduction speech. IMO the Bills will still run it a lot, but they will have an equally effective passing attack. I expect to see around a 50-50 run/pass ratio. And funnily enough, he hired an OC who over the last few years had a 55-60% run play percentage. Not as skewed as we'd think but the Niners philosophy was absolutely based around the run. And you're acting as if McCoy is CJ. Yes, he dances a bit, but he's been used effectively by Reid with a fullback. Plus Karlos, plus Freddy, plus Boobie. We are built right now with a great stable of runners (when healthy) and players known for getting GREAT YAC. I heard relying on that was the plan all offseason. It's a good plan. It can work. I don't understand the sudden desire to throw it away because we had one great preseason game.
Dibs Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 i think all this 'ground and pound' talk was motivated by his doubts in the QB situation - just like the Jets.. he and Roman will attack how and when they can.. and we're right back to who gives them a more dynamic O I think you are right on that. Things change....sometimes for the better. I'm hoping we get the chance in a couple of years to lament losing a star player or two in order to re-sign our young Franchise QB. What a great change in direction due to fortuitous circumstance that would be.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think we could G&P if we wanted. It can simply mean running a lot, not necessarily the style of running. But I think you are correct regardless. Having Sammy and Woods, and adding Harvin and Clay would be a bit of a waste if we didn't pass the ball enough to take advantage of those weapons IMO. And you somehow think that this is impossible to do with Taylor? No screens, no slants, no jet sweeps, no putting Clay at LT while using 6 linemen, and having Clay be hot read off the play action? It's like we've barely been looking at G-Ro's tape.
BackInDaDay Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think you are right on that. Things change....sometimes for the better. I'm hoping we get the chance in a couple of years to lament losing a star player or two in order to re-sign our young Franchise QB. What a great change in direction due to fortuitous circumstance that would be. easy does it.. but yeah, i think the FO is as surprised as the fanbase.. are we seeing our tickets out of purgatory? we'll see..
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