Kirby Jackson Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 That is the truth with the whole game plan though ... unless you are planning a radical change to the offensive paradigm(i.e. not having a QB at all), I do not see how any of these three(as to which will play) is really a concern for an opposing defense. I mean that is terms of "messing" with their plans. I certainly think that is the case with EJ. He is somewhere between the other 2. If you are caught between Cassel and Tyrod though it makes some sense. If you are not preparing (specifically for Tyrod) you can get hurt. If a LB abandons his responsibility it can quickly turn into a 40 yard gain.
LeGOATski Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Not generalities at all. They are basic principals of each position. QBs are passers, to be successful they need accuracy first, escapability is just an added bonus. Russ Wilsons success is because he will kill you with his arm, forcing defenses to guard the pass first, which allows his elusiveness. Quartebacks are ALWAYS looking downfield, not 2-3 yards ahead, like a running back does. Its what allows a D to tee off and blow up a QB running. Just the way ive always viewed it. Its why you dont see many successful running QBs, if any. Kordell... Please no They're not the norm, but we see plenty of successful dual-threat QBs. You're still speaking in generalities, not specifically about Taylor. He's shown the awareness to avoid big hits. No reason to think he's injury prone or more vulnerable than any of the other dual-threat QBs.
YoloinOhio Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) That is the truth with the whole game plan though ... unless you are planning a radical change to the offensive paradigm(i.e. not having a QB at all), I do not see how any of these three(as to which will play) is really a concern for an opposing defense. I mean that is terms of "messing" with their plans. i have never seen it as "messing" with their plans. They are making them spend time on installing game plans for three different types of QBs. This is time that could be spent on something else. They don't have a great defense to begin with. As Rex said, if all the QBs had similar styles, attributes, tendencies it would not matter. In this case all 3 are different. You have to game plan to a QBs tendencies. It doesn't matter if it's Tom Brady or Brady Quinn. It's a matter of the defense having to remember 3 different installations for one game. Rex knows better than anyone what it takes to defensively prepare for a QB in the NFL. This experience leads to a lot of the offensive personnel decisions he seems to have had a hand in bringing in since he got here. Percy Harvin, Charles Clay, LeSean, and TT are all multi-dimensional players that make DCs think harder and work harder to figure out his best to defend them. Spreading these guys around is going to open things up. He knew that last year it was difficult to cover Sammy 1:1 and he needed to roll coverage... So get some other guys you need to do the same thing for. I think he's putting himself in the shoes of Pagano and thinking - would it be easier if I knew the QB was going to be, if it could be any one if these three different types of QBs? His experience tells him there is no benefit to the Bills to let the Colts (or the other later opponents and pro scouts already utilizing a certain amount of time prepping for them now) know who it will be. And the off chance that it could actually help the Bills. Edited August 28, 2015 by YoloinOhio
A Dog Named Kelso Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Here is a quote from Rex early this year that seems to contradict the trail bait suggestions: The new Bills coach emphasized both points in an interview with the Buffalo News. First, Ryan didn't seem too concerned about the fact Manuel hasn't found a lot of success through the first two years of his career. "Let"s not just throw him out after two years," Ryan said. "Aaron Rodgers never took a snap for three years. So let's see where [Manuel's] going to be." http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25136686/rex-ryan-lets-not-dump-ej-manuel-after-two-years-look-at-aaron-rodgers I am not saying it happening it is just completely different than what they have been saying. That seems to be where the press has gotten it wrong ... not listening to what they are saying and assuming they know what is going on.
Wayne Cubed Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 That is the truth with the whole game plan though ... unless you are planning a radical change to the offensive paradigm(i.e. not having a QB at all), I do not see how any of these three(as to which will play) is really a concern for an opposing defense. I mean that is terms of "messing" with their plans. Seriously? You are talking about the difference of preparing for a short west-coast style attack with Cassel to a read-option stretch the field type QB with Taylor. They are almost polar opposite. If they prepare for one and not the other they could get burned a ton. If they prepare for both they can't devote enough time to a single one.
YoloinOhio Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Here is a quote from Rex early this year that seems to contradict the trail bait suggestions: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25136686/rex-ryan-lets-not-dump-ej-manuel-after-two-years-look-at-aaron-rodgers I am not saying it happening it is just completely different than what they have been saying. That seems to be where the press has gotten it wrong ... not listening to what they are saying and assuming they know what is going on. i don't have any inside sources here but I can see them going either way. Technically, he did give him a chance to earn the job. He said that back in pre-OTAs I believe. Trading him now after he didn't earn the job (presumably) is different than trading him back then before he ever got a look at EJ himself. Edited August 28, 2015 by YoloinOhio
TSOL Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) They're not the norm, but we see plenty of successful dual-threat QBs. You're still speaking in generalities, not specifically about Taylor. He's shown the awareness to avoid big hits. No reason to think he's injury prone or more vulnerable than any of the other dual-threat QBs. TT has not shown me much, none of us. We haven't seen him nearly enough to say that. It's the NFL, linebackers are like 240 pound human missles. I do not want those guys running, with a full self of steam at the Bills starting QB. Again, just the body position of a QB, the way they are trained to hold the ball, is so far from the way a RB is trained. It's almost like, having your QB running downfield, the best case scenario is a fumble, the worst case, I don't even wanna think about it. He may have great awareness, but defenders have great awareness too. He may be fast, but so are those big guys in the middle of the field. Of course there's exceptions, but the history of the NFL clearly shows the formula for success. Passers need to be passer, runners need to be runners, that's all. Just my take. And the more I think about this little debate inside of a debate, the more I think I like starting Cassel vs. Tyrod Edited August 28, 2015 by mastershake
LeGOATski Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 i have never seen it as "messing" with their plans. They are making them spend time on installing game plans for three different types of QBs. This is time that could be spent on something else. They don't have a great defense to begin with. As Rex said, if all the QBs had similar styles, attributes, tendencies it would not matter. In this case all 3 are different. You have to game plan to a QBs tendencies. It doesn't matter if it's Tom Brady or Brady Quinn. It's a matter of the defense having to remember 3 different installations for one game. Rex knows better than anyone what it takes to defensively prepare for a QB in the NFL. This experience leads to a lot of the offensive personnel decisions he seems to have had a hand in bringing in since he got here. Percy Harvin, Charles Clay, LeSean, and TT are all multi-dimensional players that make DCs think harder and work harder to figure out his best to defend them. Spreading these guys around is going to open things up. He knew that last year it was difficult to cover Sammy 1:1 and he needed to roll coverage... So get some other guys you need to do the same thing for. I think he's putting himself in the shoes of Pagano and thinking - would it be easier if I knew the QB was going to be, if it could be any one if these three different types of QBs? His experience tells him there is no benefit to the Bills to let the Colts (or the other later opponents and pro scouts already utilizing a certain amount of time prepping for them now) know who it will be. And the off chance that it could actually help the Bills. Well said. Any advantage is good.
Maury Ballstein Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Oh man. We are gonna fool Indy so bad !!! Lolz.
YoloinOhio Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Oh man. We are gonna fool Indy so bad !!! Lolz. they aren't trying to "fool" them. There just isn't any advantage to telling them. Why isn't urban Meyer going to tell Va tech who he's playing? Same reason. Edited August 28, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Kirby Jackson Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 they aren't trying to "fool" them. There just isn't any advantage to telling them. Why isn't urban Meyer going to tell Va tech who he's playing? Same reason. Yeah, I actually like playing Indy 1st (even though I wish Dareus was there). You may be able to scheme enough to cause them problems. It may allow you to steal one. Once the tape is out there, it is out there and teams can prepare. If they do not know (offensively or defensively) what they are preparing for it is a big advantage.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 they aren't trying to "fool" them. There just isn't any advantage to telling them. Why isn't urban Meyer going to tell Va tech who he's playing? Same reason. It's like Bill Belichick trying to get every tiny advantage that he can, without the cheating.
LeGOATski Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 TT has not shown me much, none of us. We haven't seen him nearly enough to say that. It's the NFL, linebackers are like 240 pound human missles. I do not want those guys running, with a full self of steam at the Bills starting QB. Again, just the body position of a QB, the way they are trained to hold the ball, is so far from the way a RB is trained. It's almost like, having your QB running downfield, the best case scenario is a fumble, the worst case, I don't even wanna think about it. He may have great awareness, but defenders have great awareness too. He may be fast, but so are those big guys in the middle of the field. Of course there's exceptions, but the history of the NFL clearly shows the formula for success. Passers need to be passer, runners need to be runners, that's all. Just my take. He's shown us plenty in the running aspect of his game. All throughout college, his time with the Ravens, and now. Running and being aware of the defenders around him, even with his eyes downfield, has not been an issue. I can't say anything more to support that, except to recommend watching those games for yourself, if you're able.
PromoTheRobot Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Funny how doing good is "showing nothing" but doing bad is irrefutable evidence.
TSOL Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Luck is gonna be on a mission this year, do you see the way that guy throws a football? We're gonna have to score more than 23-24 points to beat Indy. Hes got the experiance and god given talents to legitamitly go all the way. I know all about our defense and exotic blitz packages and all that, of course. But great defenses are beat by great passers. We need to get the ball in the end zone three times to beat them, and at least a FG or two. Tyrods style in the NFL just scares me, I just wanted to throw my opinion into the arena. Metz's "news" this morning just has me thinking about our season in a whole different light. Edited August 28, 2015 by mastershake
YoloinOhio Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) It's like Bill Belichick trying to get every tiny advantage that he can, without the cheating.yes - the margin of error is so small in the NFL. Any coach worth his salt is going to try to gain any edge he possibly can. Maybe it won't make a difference, but there is no use shrugging your shoulders and saying "I may as well tell them. Ho hum. All 3 suck anyway, amirite? I really like that Chuck Pagano. We both hate the Pats* so we need to stick together." That would be a Dick Jauron move. Edited August 28, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Maddog69 Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 TT has not shown me much, none of us. We haven't seen him nearly enough to say that. It's the NFL, linebackers are like 240 pound human missles. I do not want those guys running, with a full self of steam at the Bills starting QB. Again, just the body position of a QB, the way they are trained to hold the ball, is so far from the way a RB is trained. It's almost like, having your QB running downfield, the best case scenario is a fumble, the worst case, I don't even wanna think about it. He may have great awareness, but defenders have great awareness too. He may be fast, but so are those big guys in the middle of the field. Of course there's exceptions, but the history of the NFL clearly shows the formula for success. Passers need to be passer, runners need to be runners, that's all. Just my take. And the more I think about this little debate inside of a debate, the more I think I like starting Cassel vs. Tyrod The history of the league is also littered with mobile, athletic QBs who have had great success using their legs to make plays (Cunninghan, Young, Tarkenton, Vick, Kaepernick, Wilson, etc). The best ones are the ones that can do both. That is what we need to see from Taylor. I saw a little of it from him last week. Scrambling while still looking for a target downfield. I like what I've seen. Need to see more. Would I love the Bills to have a prototypical pocket passer like Manning, Brady, Luck - HELL Yes. But we don't. So we need to use the things out QBs do well. I don't want the Bills to take away Taylors instincts and physical gifts and turn him into a pocket passer because they are scared to get him hurt. Let him play his game and lets see what he can do. Luck is gonna be on a mission this year, do you see the way that guy throws a football? We're gonna have to score more than 23-24 points to beat Indy. Hes got the experiance and god given talents to legitamitly go all the way. I know all about our defense and exotic blitz packages and all that, of course. But great defenses are beat by great passers. We need to get the ball in the end zone three times to beat them, and at least a FG or two. Tyrods style in the NFL just scares me, I just wanted to throw my opinion into the arena. Metz's "news" this morning just has me thinking about our season in a whole different light. Did you see what our defense did to Rodgers and Green Bay last year? Luck needs to worry about our defense as much as our Defense has to worry about Luck. He might be "Lucky" to come out alive. (pun intended). Funny how doing good is "showing nothing" but doing bad is irrefutable evidence.
FireChan Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) snip First, comparing EJ to Richardson is like comparing apples to watermelons. EJ was a 1st round pick at QB, and Richardson was a 5th round pick at OG. Young QB's are going to have bad games, and its from those bad games that they learn, grow, and develop. Both players were projects, which you actually argue later in your post, so why does their draft status matter? Furthermore, QB drafting has always been inflated. Young OG's also have bad games, and learn, grow and develop soooo... EJ was a known project at QB, and was supposed to ride the bench his first season until vet QB Kevin Kolb ended his career by tripping on a rubber mat!! EJ was from a very successful one read system in college, and any coach with a normal brain should understand the kid needs much more learning time then someone from a pro style college offense! Then not having a veteran QB on the roster for 2013 was almost as stupid as not having a QB coach with three young QB's on the roster. One rookie 1st rounder, one rookie undrafted, one player with a whole two games of experience all being led by an OC with no previous coordinator experience at the NFL level. His sole NFL coaching experience was one season as offensive quality control coach. Okay, but let's go back to Cyril. How much different was his blocking scheme in Baylor compared to the Bills? Quite a bit. He deserves more time to learn, grow and develop as well. Also, Kevin Kolb was the vet QB on the roster in 2013, but he got hurt. You're sorta arguing against yourself here. And Cyril's OC was the same person. EJ didn't start looking bad until the coaches changed the game plan for the Chargers & Houston games. EJ was 2-0 last year until his coaches went pass crazy, and then stopped running the ball after those first two games. Last years offense 579 passes vs 402 rushes while having the 26th offense in yards. Most games last year the coaches were forcing the QB to throw around 40 times, and ran the ball around 20 times. Think about that for a min, as most RB's by themselves usually need around 20 carries to get into a decent rhythm. LeSean McCoy usually had some really good games when given the ball 20 plus times. Speaking of that Fred Jackson was 7 for 33= 4.7 YPC avg against Houston, and yet only saw the ball 7 times. Spiller went 15 for 60 which was still 4.0 YPC avg, and yet the coaches had the inexperienced 2nd year QB throw 44 times that game. Coaches "changed" the gameplan because we were down and you need to throw the ball to score. Also, Houston and SD schemed to dare EJ to throw. He could not. I've read that Leroi stated that EJ was a disaster in that Houston game. EJ was under constant pressure all game, and JJ Watt had a career high nine hits on EJ that game. What the real disaster was in that game was the game plan, and offensive line! Oh BTW that 5th round pick at OG was starting for that game, and was benched for Urbik not long after. At that particular time the Bills were fielding the very worst offensive line in the entire NFL. Five dropped passes by the receivers, and multiple penalties by the O line didn't help in that game. The final score of that game was only 17-23, and the Bills were in that game until the very end. That Houston game was a game the Bills could have won with a better game plan. The Bills had the better RB's, and defense. EJ was a disaster that game. Oh BTW, that first round pick at QB was starting for that game, and was benched for Orton not long after. The score was 17-23 and not 17-16 because EJ threw a pick six. The defense allowed 16 points, we ran the ball for over 100 yards and we lost. I would think that further trying to develop that #1 pick at QB with only 14 games under his belt should be the primary concern here, and hopefully it is! Only if you don't care about the outcome of this current season. Edited August 28, 2015 by FireChan
TSOL Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) I'm a pessimisticlly optimist. Or an optimistically pessimist, I have no clue, I'm confused. Edited August 28, 2015 by mastershake
A Dog Named Kelso Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 yes - the margin of error is so small in the NFL. Any coach worth his salt is going to try to gain any edge he possibly can. Maybe it won't make a difference, but there is no use shrugging your shoulders and saying "I may as well tell them. Ho hum. All 3 suck anyway, amirite? I really like that Chuck Pagano. We both hate the Pats* so we need to stick together." That would be a Dick Jauron move. I understand what you are saying but you game plan for 2 QBs at this point in time regardless. Cassel and Tyrod, EJ would fall between the two of them(from a game planning stand point). And if he is traded then the point is mute anyhow..
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