Ashley Madison leak -- the fallout begins

[Saxum]

If you want to know one, exclusively human behavior, I think it's lying. I'm not saying there isn't any other animal that engages in that behavior---but I can't think of one at the moment.

 

 

Humans like to think of themselves as a faithful species, but when it comes to true fidelity, many other animals offer better examples of how to keep a relationship together. Although monogamy and lifelong pair bonds are generally rare in the animal kingdom, there are some animals that pull it off.

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/photos/11-animals-that-mate-for-life/old-faithful

[Clippers of Nfl]

Gee, if only all the people who signed up to create an account on a website that promotes adultery had an idea that websites could be hacked.

 

Do you have any idea how big of a dumbass you would have to be to think that the best way to cheat on your spouse would be to turn over personal information to a freaking website?

 

If you're that stupid, you deserve to get outed.

No. One would assume things are in place to prevent this from happening.

 

That would be like me not opening a checking account on fear that one day it could get hacked. Stupid me for opening checking accounts.

 

Your argument killed in one post. Dont feel bad.

that site was a total sausage party and a lot of live have been ruined

Ha ha. Too be expected.

 

Lol.

 

Stupid men. Ha ha ha ha

[KD in CA]

that site was a total sausage party and a lot of live have been ruined

 

That's pretty funny. I had read a while back that a large % of the female users were 'professionals'. And it sounds like there weren't even that many of them.

Gee, if only all the people who signed up to create an account on a website that promotes adultery had an idea that websites could be hacked.

 

Do you have any idea how big of a dumbass you would have to be to think that the best way to cheat on your spouse would be to turn over personal information to a freaking website?

 

If you're that stupid, you deserve to get outed.

 

The amazing thing to me is how many people used email addresses with their real names and/or from work email servers. Good grief, how hard is it to set up a random yahoo email account with a fake name?!?

 

Related story time:

We laid off a bunch of people in 2008, including our VP Sales who was a reasonably decent looking women in her 40s. A few days later -- with her emails being forwarded to me -- one came in from a friend of hers who apparently didn't know she had left the company. The email thread they had been exchanging for weeks read like a Penthouse Forum letter; details of them !@#$ing, how she had fooled around with a female friend, how she watched herself in the mirror getting off with her vibe, etc., etc. Sure did explain all those 'client meetings' she seemed to have in Manhattan despite the lack of any actual clients we had in NYC.

Edited August 27, 2015 by KD in CT

[Maury Ballstein]

Sounds like my kinda girl. Gotta number ?

[Joe Miner]

 

That's pretty funny. I had read a while back that a large % of the female users were 'professionals'. And it sounds like there weren't even that many of them.

 

 

The amazing thing to me is how many people used email addresses with their real names and/or from work email servers. Good grief, how hard is it to set up a random yahoo email account with a fake name?!?

 

Related story time:

We laid off a bunch of people in 2008, including our VP Sales who was a reasonably decent looking women in her 40s. A few days later -- with her emails being forwarded to me -- one came in from a friend of hers who apparently didn't know she had left the company. The email thread they had been exchanging for weeks read like a Penthouse Forum letter; details of them !@#$ing, how she had fooled around with a female friend, how she watched herself in the mirror getting off with her vibe, etc., etc. Sure did explain all those 'client meetings' she seemed to have in Manhattan despite the lack of any actual clients we had in NYC.

It might be a good lesson for the rest of us if you posted those emails here...

[billsfan89]

 

 

Well, let's get rid of the absolute "every" here, and just deal with the typical. I agree most men, and women, have sexual desires that extend to more than one person. So what? We also probably want to grab everything we want and not pay for it---right? Mine Mine Mine!!!!!

 

I like to think you learn things as you age, and one of those things is, you can desire something, but not act on it---and that is fine. Even if your relationship is great, and you really love your partner, you will still be attracted to other people. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the relationship.

 

We evolve---physical, mentally and emotionally. As people, and as a race. A base response for us is to be suspicious of those not like us---hence racism. (Yes, I realize this is a bit over-simplistic, but go with it.) If we are physical imposing, we understand early we can get our way through physical intimidation and violence. I could go on. But as a society we realize it is better to keep these base instincts in check. We can live very happier, and more productive lives (as a group), without giving into our base instincts.

 

With that said, we have plenty of outlets to indulge most of those instincts without being complete dicks. If you are physically imposing, you can play sports and get your fix. You can join a "men's" group, an Italian organization, Augusta National or the NAACP to get your xenophobic freak on. And nobody is forcing you to get into a monogamous relationship. That's a choice you make. Marriage is one step beyond that--usually. I know married couples who have fairly open sexual relationships. But they aren't lying to each other about them.

 

If you want to know one, exclusively human behavior, I think it's lying. I'm not saying there isn't any other animal that engages in that behavior---but I can't think of one at the moment.

 

OK, I'm ranting---where was I going with this? Dunno...

 

But I just typed all that, so maybe it means something. I need another drink...

 

I think you are drawing a false narrative with the stealing thing. Stealing is inherently wrong, there is no ethical alternative to not paying in some way shape or form for a product. But there are alternatives to monogamy that aren't morally wrong or unethical. I get that no one is forcing monogamy, but what I am getting at is that as people we need to stop making monogamy the only accepted social construct. Yeah you personally might not judge people with open marriages or swingers but society in general doesn't look at that practice too kindly. Too many married people are unhappy the established paradigm isn't working. With divorce rates still fairly high and marriage stratification rates low the system clearly isn't working. And it's not simply a young person wanting to bang everything in sight. It's taking a look at why the marriage game is messed up. I think many people just aren't honest about their sexual needs.

 

Think about it, women fall for the guy who was getting girls when he was single. The wild beast so to speak. They then tame the beast and soon after they don't look at the domesticated animal with the same passion. The beast also resents being locked up in a cage. Why on Earth do we think that system is good for everyone involved? Why should everyone involved sacrifice happiness when they don't need to? Just because of some arbitrary standard of what is moral.

 

EDIT: And of course monogamy works for a good amount of people. But it shouldn't be considered the most moral or the best thing in every situation.

Edited August 27, 2015 by billsfan89

[DC Tom]

 

From the linked article:

 

"Overall, the picture is grim indeed. Out of 5.5 million female accounts, roughly zero percent had ever shown any kind of activity at all, after the day they were created.

The men’s accounts tell a story of lively engagement with the site, with over 20 million men hopefully looking at their inboxes, and over 10 million of them initiating chats. The women’s accounts show so little activity that they might as well not be there."

 

 

That was so completely predictable too. Every commercial for that site I'd ever seen, I thought "Yeah, the ration of men to women has to be about 20 to 1 or worse."

[Canadian Bills Fan]

When I was in college a female classmate did an interview with the founder of this website. This was around the time they were still fairly new.

 

I will never forget the guy telling my classmate that their slow times are around Christmas and Valentines Day because everyone wants to be with their spouse and family

 

Made me sick

 

 

 

CBF

[IDBillzFan]

No. One would assume things are in place to prevent this from happening.

 

That would be like me not opening a checking account on fear that one day it could get hacked. Stupid me for opening checking accounts.

 

Your argument killed in one post. Dont feel bad.

 

You're equating a basic need, like a checking account, with an intentional act of cheating on your wife behind her back?

 

What happens if your checking account gets hacked? The bank returns your money.

 

What happens when your wife finds out you're cheating on her? The court gives her your money, you wreck everyone's lives, and assuming you have children, have set an example they are likely to follow when and if they ever get married.

 

But other than trying to argue a false equivalent that makes absolutely no sense, your example was nearly comprehensible.

Edited August 27, 2015 by LABillzFan

[Clippers of Nfl]

 

You're equating a basic need, like a checking account, with an intentional act of cheating on your wife behind her back?

 

What happens if your checking account gets hacked? The bank returns your money.

 

What happens when your wife finds out you're cheating on her? The court gives her your money, you wreck everyone's lives, and assuming you have children, have set an example they are likely to follow when and if they ever get married.

 

But other than trying to argue a false equivalent that makes absolutely no sense, your example was nearly comprehensible.

Because of the obvious reasons of discretion and secrecy, I cant blame the users of AM for trusting the website.

[IDBillzFan]

Because of the obvious reasons of discretion and secrecy, I cant blame the users of AM for trusting the website.

 

It's precisely BECAUSE of the need for discretion and secrecy that you don't trust a website...especially a site that takes your cc info.

 

We're not talking about a dating site or even something like Tinder. We're talking about doing something which, when caught, destroys marriages and lives for years. Have you ever seen a family get blown up because someone was cheating? It can literally cost you most everything you have: house, job, family, savings...everything.

 

Which is why, again, you have to be a self-absorbed self-serving ego-maniacal dumbass of epic proportions to first believe cheating on your spouse is a good idea, and then think giving your freaking cc information to a website to facilitate your efforts is an equally good idea.

Edited August 27, 2015 by LABillzFan

[Clippers of Nfl]

 

It's precisely BECAUSE of the need for discretion and secrecy that you don't trust a website...especially a site that takes your cc info.

 

We're not talking about a dating site or even something like Tinder. We're talking about doing something which, when caught, destroys marriages and lives for years. Have you ever seen a family get blown up because someone was cheating? It can literally cost you most everything you have: house, job, family, savings...everything.

 

Which is why, again, you have to be a self-absorbed self-serving ego-maniacal dumbass of epic proportions to first believe cheating on your spouse is a good idea, and then think giving your freaking cc information to a website to facilitate your efforts is an equally good idea.

I'll cancel my account then.

[bbb]

 

From the linked article:

 

"Overall, the picture is grim indeed. Out of 5.5 million female accounts, roughly zero percent had ever shown any kind of activity at all, after the day they were created.

The men’s accounts tell a story of lively engagement with the site, with over 20 million men hopefully looking at their inboxes, and over 10 million of them initiating chats. The women’s accounts show so little activity that they might as well not be there."

 

 

Damn. Well, I guess I'll just stick with calling those 900 numbers I see advertised on TV. Those chicks are hot!

 

[The Dean]

 

I think you are drawing a false narrative with the stealing thing. Stealing is inherently wrong, there is no ethical alternative to not paying in some way shape or form for a product. But there are alternatives to monogamy that aren't morally wrong or unethical. I get that no one is forcing monogamy, but what I am getting at is that as people we need to stop making monogamy the only accepted social construct. Yeah you personally might not judge people with open marriages or swingers but society in general doesn't look at that practice too kindly. Too many married people are unhappy the established paradigm isn't working. With divorce rates still fairly high and marriage stratification rates low the system clearly isn't working. And it's not simply a young person wanting to bang everything in sight. It's taking a look at why the marriage game is messed up. I think many people just aren't honest about their sexual needs.

 

Think about it, women fall for the guy who was getting girls when he was single. The wild beast so to speak. They then tame the beast and soon after they don't look at the domesticated animal with the same passion. The beast also resents being locked up in a cage. Why on Earth do we think that system is good for everyone involved? Why should everyone involved sacrifice happiness when they don't need to? Just because of some arbitrary standard of what is moral.

 

EDIT: And of course monogamy works for a good amount of people. But it shouldn't be considered the most moral or the best thing in every situation.

 

 

Actually, I think you are drawing a false narrative when you suggest monogamy is the "only accepted socially narrative". I've been single my entire life (58 years) and have never felt any pressure to be married, or in some sort of monogamous relationship. None. Sure people might ask why I'm not married, or don't have a serious girlfriend, but I don't feel they are judging me to any extent, once we have a real conversation about it. I think our society expects you to be monogamous when you enter into a traditional relationship where monogamy is expected. And if you in one of those relationships, unless you have an honest agreement to have an open relationship, monogamy should be expected. Many so-called "open relationships" fail because one party isn't really that honest about their acceptance/happiness in that sort of relationship--or they use subterfuge with the party/parties with who they are looking to have sex with outside the relationship.

 

I happen to think there is no difference, ethically, between stealing and cheating on someone with whom you've established a monogamous relationship. If you don't feel monogamy is natural, or that you can totally commit to one person, don't get into that kind of relationship. Honestly, there are legitimate reasons one might steal, but I can't think of a legitimate reason to cheat if you are in a monogamous relationship, and lie about it.

Edited August 28, 2015 by The Dean

[NoSaint]

 

 

Actually, I think you are drawing a false narrative when you suggest monogamy is the "only accepted socially narrative". I've been single my entire life (58 years) and have never felt any pressure to be married, or in some sort of monogamous relationship. None. Sure people might ask why I'm not married, or don't have a serious girlfriend, but I don't feel they are judging me to any extent, once we have a real conversation about it. I think our society expects you to be monogamous when you enter into a traditional relationship where monogamy is expected. And if you in one of those relationships, unless you have an honest agreement to have an open relationship, monogamy should be expected. Many so-called "open relationships" fail because one party isn't really that honest about their acceptance/happiness in that sort of relationship--or they use subterfuge with the party/parties with who they are looking to have sex with outside the relationship.

 

I happen to think there is no difference, ethically, between stealing and cheating on someone with whom you've established a monogamous relationship. If you don't feel monogamy is natural, or that you can totally commit to one person, don't get into that kind of relationship. Honestly, there are legitimate reasons one might steal, but I can't think of a legitimate reason to cheat if you are in a monogamous relationship, and lie about it.

I'll let you in in a secret dean- there's a good chance a lot of them are judging you just like they are searching the list to find their neighbors to talk behind their backs.

 

It may not effect you, and more power to it- but in a blind poll of "do you judge a 60 year old that never paired off" you would likely get really negative results. Which is a shame because it's no ones business and effects nothing.

[IDBillzFan]

I can't think of a legitimate reason to cheat if you are in a monogamous relationship, and lie about it.

 

Not one.

[The Dean]

I'll let you in in a secret dean- there's a good chance a lot of them are judging you just like they are searching the list to find their neighbors to talk behind their backs.

 

It may not effect you, and more power to it- but in a blind poll of "do you judge a 60 year old that never paired off" you would likely get really negative results. Which is a shame because it's no ones business and effects nothing.

 

You may be right---and who gives a damn. And I agree it's possible some might judge, because they don't understand it as it is unusual. I'm not sure anyone who truly knows me, has any issue with it. Just this evening over dinner I had a conversation wtih a daughter of a client who I had met, but never really talked with. My relationship status became a topic. She was definately a bit confused why a guy "like me" would still be single, never married or engaged,. not currently in a relationship, etc. When the conversations started. I honestly don't think she was judging as much as she simply didn't understand it. By the end of the conversation, I still don't think she understood completely, but she very clearly was not judging me, if she even was in the beginning. Then again, she is the kind of women who thinks it is odd for men to have female friends and vice-versa. I just assumed most people with those views were dead by now. Funny thing is, she was very pretty, and except for her old-fashioned views on relationships, seemed pretty smart. If she wasn't married I'd ask her out in a minute.

 

Not one.

 

Well, maybe one. If you thought your spouse/mate was suicidal and this would be the tipping point, I suppose you could delay telling them until they could better handle the information. Then again, if your spouse/mate was in that situation you really shouldn't be cheating on them. Instead you should be working on getting them healthy or working toward the end of the relationship before you started any extra-relationship affairs.

[Rob's House]

 

 

Actually, I think you are drawing a false narrative when you suggest monogamy is the "only accepted socially narrative". I've been single my entire life (58 years) and have never felt any pressure to be married, or in some sort of monogamous relationship. None. Sure people might ask why I'm not married, or don't have a serious girlfriend, but I don't feel they are judging me to any extent, once we have a real conversation about it. I think our society expects you to be monogamous when you enter into a traditional relationship where monogamy is expected. And if you in one of those relationships, unless you have an honest agreement to have an open relationship, monogamy should be expected. Many so-called "open relationships" fail because one party isn't really that honest about their acceptance/happiness in that sort of relationship--or they use subterfuge with the party/parties with who they are looking to have sex with outside the relationship.

 

I happen to think there is no difference, ethically, between stealing and cheating on someone with whom you've established a monogamous relationship. If you don't feel monogamy is natural, or that you can totally commit to one person, don't get into that kind of relationship. Honestly, there are legitimate reasons one might steal, but I can't think of a legitimate reason to cheat if you are in a monogamous relationship, and lie about it.

Again, I realize it's opinion, but I can think of several.

[The Dean]

A friend of mine made this same point re Tiger Woods. He said that it would have been no big deal that Woods was a sex-crazed maniac had he not been married. And that a guy like Derek Jeter is basically more admirable because he is going to get around and so he chooses not to get

Married.

 

As some have mentioned, people may gossip about a man/woman who, as an adult, remains unmarried. But I don't think they consider that person immoral or unethical---just odd.

[billsfan89]

 

 

Actually, I think you are drawing a false narrative when you suggest monogamy is the "only accepted socially narrative". I've been single my entire life (58 years) and have never felt any pressure to be married, or in some sort of monogamous relationship. None. Sure people might ask why I'm not married, or don't have a serious girlfriend, but I don't feel they are judging me to any extent, once we have a real conversation about it. I think our society expects you to be monogamous when you enter into a traditional relationship where monogamy is expected. And if you in one of those relationships, unless you have an honest agreement to have an open relationship, monogamy should be expected. Many so-called "open relationships" fail because one party isn't really that honest about their acceptance/happiness in that sort of relationship--or they use subterfuge with the party/parties with who they are looking to have sex with outside the relationship.

 

I happen to think there is no difference, ethically, between stealing and cheating on someone with whom you've established a monogamous relationship. If you don't feel monogamy is natural, or that you can totally commit to one person, don't get into that kind of relationship. Honestly, there are legitimate reasons one might steal, but I can't think of a legitimate reason to cheat if you are in a monogamous relationship, and lie about it.

 

When I said "Only Socially Accepted Narrative" I meant as far as relationships go. Being single isn't looked upon the same way it used to be. If someone chooses to be single it's not looked upon as weird or anything like that. In fact a lot of companies love single people because they don't have to provide as many benifits. So right now in society we have the choice between single and monogamy, any other type of long term arrangements are looked at as weird.

 

I agree that if you establish the conditions of a realtionship as being monogamous it is unethical for someone to cheat. But what I am saying is that men and women need to stop looking at polyamorus, open, or swigning relationships as being odd and not socially accepted. Monogamy is viewed as the only legitimate type of relationship. But why? Swingers and open marriages have much lower divorce rates and higher satisfication rates. So clearly there are other paradigms that work better. It shouldn't be one size fits all.