The good old 14th

[B-Large]

It's not going to be a hot topic come election time, because 80% of the public isn't offended by the landscapers and maids' ethnicity, and Mexicans are known the nation over to be hard workers. I welcome them. They are also the backbone of American Agriculture. They deserve some credit, at least in knods, if not rights.

Work Ethic has nothing to do with Legally Processed Citizenship in the United States.

 

More than anything I am suprised by this countries ambivilence to this issue.

[B-Large]

Well, I have lived around a number of them and the great majority of them are hard workers who earn their money through tough physical labor, go to the gas station on the way home, drink their six pack of beer, go to sleep and get up early to just repeat the process all over again, just so that they can send home their extra earnings back home to their families.

 

That's what you call sacrifice.

 

That is simply either demagoguery at it's worst or a complete misunderstanding of the facts on the ground. Illegal immigrants don't qualify for welfare, food stamps, medicaid and most other public benefits.

 

They do not come here to get free benefits. That is absurd. By in large, they come here to make a living. You guys talk about these people as if they are some sort of sub humans or something who just want to mooch off of you.

 

That's a big point of uncertainty in the discussion. Do illegal immigrants have access to benefits? Do they get phony SSN? They do pay property taxes and sales taxes. I guess that it was is so frustrating about the whole thing, the system is such a mess no one really knows what is going on. I don't think anyone would have issue with immigrants being part of our country either as citizens or as permitted workers. But you're correct, the rhetoric around this issues makes legislation that much harder to achieve. Edited August 18, 2015 by B-Large

[IDBillzFan]

That is simply either demagoguery at it's worst or a complete misunderstanding of the facts on the ground. Illegal immigrants don't qualify for welfare, food stamps, medicaid and most other public benefits.

 

You're wrong. They do in California.

 

Here...have ya some 'free' health care.

 

As soon as you arrive, you get the goods. Even a driver's license.

 

How about some money for college?

 

Why, we're a signature away from letting them serve on juries.

 

And the USDA is literally promoting SNAP to Mexicans IN Mexico.

 

I know you're passionate about this, but the truth is simply there: we've opened the gates and are handing out freebies.

 

No demagoguery...just facts on the ground.

[Magox]

 

You're wrong. They do in California.

 

Here...have ya some 'free' health care.

 

As soon as you arrive, you get the goods. Even a driver's license.

 

How about some money for college?

 

Why, we're a signature away from letting them serve on juries.

 

And the USDA is literally promoting SNAP to Mexicans IN Mexico.

 

I know you're passionate about this, but the truth is simply there: we've opened the gates and are handing out freebies.

 

No demagoguery...just facts on the ground.

 

 

As I stated earlier:

 

If you don't have documentation that you have legal status, you don't get these benefits. The ones that do is either for reasons of fraudulence or that particular state's neglect to enforce the rules.

So if you have beef with it, then the beef is misdirected and should be aimed at the states not enforcing the laws.

 

[GG]

 

You're wrong. They do in California.

 

Here...have ya some 'free' health care.

 

As soon as you arrive, you get the goods. Even a driver's license.

 

How about some money for college?

 

Why, we're a signature away from letting them serve on juries.

 

And the USDA is literally promoting SNAP to Mexicans IN Mexico.

 

I know you're passionate about this, but the truth is simply there: we've opened the gates and are handing out freebies.

 

No demagoguery...just facts on the ground.

 

And this is the direct result of GOP shouting from the bleachers on the issue, not moving forward with reform and then getting totally sidelined when it's too late. It's not like this wasn't predicted over 10 years ago.

[Magox]

 

And this is the direct result of GOP shouting from the bleachers on the issue, not moving forward with reform and then getting totally sidelined when it's too late. It's not like this wasn't predicted over 10 years ago.

 

 

That's from an uber liberal state like California which has no regards for law. California is way out there.

[Ozymandius]

 

Actually, the details of the definition of "citizenship" are written into US statute (in no small part because the 14th is overly broad and somewhat ambiguous - no one's ever agreed on what "jurisdiction" really means in context).

 

So while no one's repealing the 14th any time soon, there is some wiggle room.

 

Correct.

 

The true barriers to repealing birthright citizenship are:

(1) Congress working against President Trump and not modifying the law. The RINOs in Congress like Boehner and McConnell are owned by big business and will get paid off to vote against it.

 

(2) John Roberts. Even if President Trump can get Congress to repeal, eventually it'll find its way to the Supreme Court, and I don't trust John Roberts to see it Trump's way.

 

Incidentally, the only developed countries to grant birthright citizenship are the U.S. and Canada: https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/issues/birthright-citizenship/nations-granting-birthright-citizenship.html

 

Australia repealed in 2007. France repealed in 1993, the UK in 1983.

 

It would be a wonderful day for this country if the USA repealed it in 2017.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Ozymandius

[IDBillzFan]

As I stated earlier:

 

What you stated earlier was this:

 

That is simply either demagoguery at it's worst or a complete misunderstanding of the facts on the ground. Illegal immigrants don't qualify for welfare, food stamps, medicaid and most other public benefits.

 

They do not come here to get free benefits. That is absurd. By in large, they come here to make a living. You guys talk about these people as if they are some sort of sub humans or something who just want to mooch off of you.

 

So you think that because it's only blatantly happening at a state level that it's not a problem? Really?

 

 

And this is the direct result of GOP shouting from the bleachers on the issue, not moving forward with reform and then getting totally sidelined when it's too late. It's not like this wasn't predicted over 10 years ago.

 

No argument from me on that. But to suggest that most illegals come here with good intentions to be productive and help pay into the system is ridiculous to anyone who lives around it on a daily basis. If their intentions were genuinely pure, they'd come here...y'know....the legal way.

[Magox]

 

What you stated earlier was this:

 

 

So you think that because it's only blatantly happening at a state level that it's not a problem? Really?

 

 

No argument from me on that. But to suggest that most illegals come here with good intentions to be productive and help pay into the system is ridiculous to anyone who lives around it on a daily basis. If their intentions were genuinely pure, they'd come here...y'know....the legal way.

 

It's a problem for the citizens of that state. Unfortunately, you live in a state to where that isn't going to change, unless there is some sort of reasonable approach to address some sort of immigration overhaul through out the nation.

 

And yes. Most illegal immigrants do come here with good intentions. Which is to work and help support their families. Your anger on this issue is misguided, it shouldn't be towards people who are looking to improve their lives, it should be on the politicians that enable them to come here illegally and allow them to have these benefits.

[GG]

 

So you think that because it's only blatantly happening at a state level that it's not a problem? Really?

 

 

No argument from me on that. But to suggest that most illegals come here with good intentions to be productive and help pay into the system is ridiculous to anyone who lives around it on a daily basis. If their intentions were genuinely pure, they'd come here...y'know....the legal way.

 

I still contend that most immigrants come here for the opportunity, as most of them are males and come solo. That of course doesn't mean it's the case for all of the illegals, especially in California. That is a totally distinct case, where you have a huge indigenous Hispanic population that's been bringing friends and family over. That is a different problem to solve than to find the hundreds of thousand of ditch diggers that are needed to staff the economy with low skill low wage labor. It applies to Hispanics in California, but also to Africans & East Europeans on the East Coast.

 

And you're right on the point about getting here legally, except for the caveat that US immigration policy and numbers haven't been adjusted for the demographics and economic growth over the last three decades. As I've mentioned before, economic booms in the US were always accompanied with spikes in immigration (somebody had to build the roads & bridges). But the immigration quotas haven't moved much since the '80s, and that's why so many people who would certainly come here legally if they could are coming here illegally. Reality is that there's demand for their services, but the laws are preventing them from coming here legally.

[Magox]

There is a real misconception or at the very least implication that people who receive welfare are people who don't work. That's simply not the case.

 

Most people who receive food stamps, medicaid etc are people who indeed work.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/04/13/get-a-job-most-welfare-recipients-already-have-one/

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe we should be sustaining people nearly as much who are habitually and willfully not attempting to look for work. There should be repercussions for these folks.

 

But the overall point is even in a state like California which has totally gone off the rails with this issue, just because you have some people who are receiving benefits from a state that allows them to have it, doesn't mean that they aren't there to work. That's a fallacy

[Taro T]

Anyone who thinks these illegal aliens are all hard workers has never lived around them.

 

Even when granted citizenship at birth, the children don't actually identify as American, especially when they're still waving the Mexican Flag...

So, do you consider that 1st & 2nd generation Irish, Italians, & Poles that wave the flag of the country that their ancestors left to not "actually identify as an American?"

 

Having pride in one's ancestry doesn't automatically mean someone wants to give Texas back to Mexico.

[DC Tom]

So, do you consider that 1st & 2nd generation Irish, Italians, & Poles that wave the flag of the country that their ancestors left to not "actually identify as an American?"

 

Having pride in one's ancestry doesn't automatically mean someone wants to give Texas back to Mexico.

 

No, but calling it the Reconquista does.

[Taro T]

No, but calling it the Reconquista does.

True, but simply owning a Mexican flag doesn't automatically impart membership in an extreme offshoot of La Raza.

[DC Tom]

True, but simply owning a Mexican flag doesn't automatically impart membership in an extreme offshoot of La Raza.

 

Of course not. The false equivalency of "displaying a flag equals embracing a world-view" only applies to the Confederate flag.

[TakeYouToTasker]

What would be the merit awards? How would this child "earn" citizenship? And what if a kid couldn't measure up? No rights?

I've posted about this at length on these boards, but I supposed there is no harm in doing it again:

 

Meritocracy is a governing philosophy holding that those vested with decision making ability have obtained it via merit. The concept was originated by Confucius (a nod to "the classics" for birddog), and popularized in modern discussion by Heinlein.

 

The key factor in modern Meritocracy, is that the franchise is not a right, but rather a privilege; those holding the franchise being awarded the title of "citizen", where as those not holding the franchise would instead be "residents".

 

Citizens and residents alike have their rights protected by a Constitution which, unlike our current Document, would painstakingly list, explicitly and in great detail, the allowable functions of government, and the rights guaranteed to all people to be protected by that government, with no differentiation between citizen and resident.

 

Citizenship will be offered to anyone meeting all of the following conditions, and can be revoked:

 

1) at least 25 years of age

2) permanent residence for a period of at least 10 years

3) a "clean" criminal record with no felonies within the last 10 years, and no misdemeanors within the last 5 years

4) completion of a four year military obligation with honorable discharge or the extension of service after four years; or the ownership or either property or a business

5) completion with satisfactory marks of a citizenship test, encompassing the following subjects: the English language, basic economics and accounting, US history, and civics

Edited August 18, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker

[Azalin]

So, do you consider that 1st & 2nd generation Irish, Italians, & Poles that wave the flag of the country that their ancestors left to not "actually identify as an American?"

 

Having pride in one's ancestry doesn't automatically mean someone wants to give Texas back to Mexico.

 

How many first and second generation Irish, Italians, and Poles do you know? And of those, how many didn't teach their children to speak English and be thankful for growing up in America? And of those, how many came here illegally?

[Magox]

 

How many first and second generation Irish, Italians, and Poles do you know? And of those, how many didn't teach their children to speak English and be thankful for growing up in America? And of those, how many came here illegally?

 

Every second generation person I know from Mexico or Latin America speaks English fluently.

[Nanker]

Hasn't Canuckistan had a debate over immigration and citizenship fairly recently.

I thought they pulled the plug on the Chinese anchor babies a few years back after they were swarming into the PNW and upsetting the locals. Was their debate rancorous to the current level here in the People's Republic of America?

[Azalin]

 

Every second generation person I know from Mexico or Latin America speaks English fluently.

 

If you haven't done so already, come on down to Austin. There's a Bills Backers bar not far from where I live, so we can watch a game and I'll take you around to see the sights. Seriously, there's a massive population here that speak no English at all. It keeps them from ever earning decent money unless they either have extremely good luck or sell drugs. I'm not exaggerating. There's at least four or five people that I've known for over 10 years that can not speak one full sentence in English, except maybe 'I want beer'. The kicker is that only a couple of them are here illegally. Two of them are brothers and were raised in south Texas. Great guys, but no halba Ingles.