Coach Tuesday Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 A drowning man, flailing around helplessly, isn't trying to swim. He's drowning. And EJ is a beautiful-looking life raft with a hole in it somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It's staggering how the numbers fall when you discuss Buffalo's QB situation since 2010: 17 have been on the preseason or regular season roster since 2010 11 have been on the preseason or regular season roster since 2013 7 have started a regular season game with another likely added to that list on opening day. 6 were on the preseason or regular season roster in 2013 alone (EDIT: Kolb, Manuel, Tuel, Leinart, T. Lewis, Flynn) 4 were signed in UFA (Thigpen, Kolb, Orton,Taylor) 3 were traded for (T. Jackson, T. Lewis, Cassel) 2 were drafted in 6 total drafts And this is with one guy (Fitzpatrick) starting 45 of 48 games from 2010-2012. This doesn't appear like a team that knows what they're doing at the game's most important position. That's QB purgatory. Billsvet, this sounds amazing but putting in the preseason makes it kind of business-as-usual for the league. I don't think it's out of the way, even for teams with established starters, to bring in a couple of guys as "camp arms" during preseason or to battle it out for the backup spot/PS. Bring in a bunch of fish, let them flop around, keep the best looking, throw the rest back. And teams without established starters or with an injury to their starter? Yeah, the names at the QB spot pile up quickly, as with the Bills in 2013 when Kolb went down. So most of what you've written above really has little bearing on whether or not the Bills know what they're doing at QB, IMO. The telling part of your rundown is really the last 2 lines. Two of the 3 guys traded for were journeyman/backup types (Lewis, Jackson). One of the 2 QB drafted was in the 7th round. When you don't have an established starter, you need to do more than that in the effort to acquire a starter. We have new management and new coaching now. As far as I'm concerned the "do we know what we're doing?" clock reset when the Pegulas picked up the keys and the new coaches arrived. So we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 We will see if Rex and Roman can give Whaley good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Billsvet, this sounds amazing but putting in the preseason makes it kind of business-as-usual for the league. I don't think it's out of the way, even for teams with established starters, to bring in a couple of guys as "camp arms" during preseason or to battle it out for the backup spot/PS. Bring in a bunch of fish, let them flop around, keep the best looking, throw the rest back. And teams without established starters or with an injury to their starter? Yeah, the names at the QB spot pile up quickly, as with the Bills in 2013 when Kolb went down. So most of what you've written above really has little bearing on whether or not the Bills know what they're doing at QB, IMO. The telling part of your rundown is really the last 2 lines. Two of the 3 guys traded for were journeyman/backup types (Lewis, Jackson). One of the 2 QB drafted was in the 7th round. When you don't have an established starter, you need to do more than that in the effort to acquire a starter. We have new management and new coaching now. As far as I'm concerned the "do we know what we're doing?" clock reset when the Pegulas picked up the keys and the new coaches arrived. So we'll see. I think the most telling stat, aside from the number drafted, is how many have started. That's the best indicator of issues at the position. Based on this camp, the Bills will start their 5th different QB since 2013 alone. Management to me, remains much the same. Sure there are new Pro Personnel and College Scouting people. But the strategy hasn't changed because they don't draft anyone until it's clear the last option has failed. In 2011-12 Nix adamantly stuck by Fitz without drafting a young guy. And they went into two training camps (2013-14) without serious competition for Manuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 We have new management and new coaching now. As far as I'm concerned the "do we know what we're doing?" clock reset when the Pegulas picked up the keys and the new coaches arrived. So we'll see. I would have liked the Bills to use one of their mid round picks on a QB in this year's draft. I had no favorites so the best remaining QB in, say, round 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I would have liked the Bills to use one of their mid round picks on a QB in this year's draft. I had no favorites so the best remaining QB in, say, round 3. So you'd have rather picked a QB likely to not see the field this year over John Miller, our starting RG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Tear Down The Wall!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I think the most telling stat, aside from the number drafted, is how many have started. That's the best indicator of issues at the position. Based on this camp, the Bills will start their 5th different QB since 2013 alone. Management to me, remains much the same. Sure there are new Pro Personnel and College Scouting people. But the strategy hasn't changed because they don't draft anyone until it's clear the last option has failed. In 2011-12 Nix adamantly stuck by Fitz without drafting a young guy. And they went into two training camps (2013-14) without serious competition for Manuel. How can you say that when they had Kolb, who was splitting starter's reps with Manuel in 2013? I truly don't understand your need to distort the facts on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 How can you say that when they had Kolb, who was splitting starter's reps with Manuel in 2013? I truly don't understand your need to distort the facts on this subject. He's had 6,897 posts. You can only complain about the Bills Quarterbacking 6,738 ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) I was reading the Buffalo News article on Henderson this morning and I thought of the perfect way to explain to the EJ people something that they don't seem to understand. A typical conversation will go something like this: someone will say, "you guys, he's not showing us enough, he clearly has regressed since 2013." And then an EJ guy will say, "how could you possibly know, he's only played 14 games, he hasn't even gotten a chance to show us what he's got..." Or I will say he had a lousy 2014 and then someone will say, "he only played 4 games and in 2 of them he wasn't bad." The point that I've been trying to make forever is that practice and preseason counts. That is the time for guys- unless you have a starting spot locked up- to earn a job. EJ had a DISASTROUS 2014. No one says, "How could we possibly know anything about Cyrus Kouandjio? He's never even played in a game." No, everyone says, "Kouandjio had a disappointing rookie year." And people who just want to hand the keys to EJ because he has tools and he was a first round pick- did anyone say, "well even though Kouandjio had a bad camp and preseason, just give him the job over Henderson because he has a higher ceiling/was a higher pick?" No. You have to go out and earn your job. Go earn your job tonight EJ. Edited August 20, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I was reading the Buffalo News article on Henderson this morning and I thought of the perfect way to explain to the EJ people something that they don't seem to understand. A typical conversation will go something like this: someone will say, "you guys, he's not showing us enough, he clearly has regressed since 2013." And then an EJ guy will say, "how could you possibly know, he's only played 14 games, he hasn't even gotten a chance to show us what he's got..." Or I will say he had a lousy 2014 and then someone will say, "he only played 4 games and in 2 of them he wasn't bad." The point that I've been trying to make forever is that practice and preseason counts. That is the time for guys- unless you have a starting spot locked up- to earn a job. EJ had a DISASTROUS 2014. No one says, "How could we possibly know anything about Cyrus Kouandjio? He's never even played in a game." No, everyone says, "Kouandjio had a disappointing rookie year." And people who just want to hand the keys to EJ because he has tools and he was a first round pick- did anyone say, "well even though Kouandjio had a bad camp and preseason, just give him the job over Henderson because he has a higher ceiling/was a higher pick?" No. You have to go out and earn your job. Go earn your job tonight EJ. Also the film room. I have no idea, I'm just guessing, but I bet the coaches pay attention to what goes on in the film room in terms of players' awareness, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I was reading the Buffalo News article on Henderson this morning and I thought of the perfect way to explain to the EJ people something that they don't seem to understand. A typical conversation will go something like this: someone will say, "you guys, he's not showing us enough, he clearly has regressed since 2013." And then an EJ guy will say, "how could you possibly know, he's only played 14 games, he hasn't even gotten a chance to show us what he's got..." Or I will say he had a lousy 2014 and then someone will say, "he only played 4 games and in 2 of them he wasn't bad." The point that I've been trying to make forever is that practice and preseason counts. That is the time for guys- unless you have a starting spot locked up- to earn a job. EJ had a DISASTROUS 2014. No one says, "How could we possibly know anything about Cyrus Kouandjio? He's never even played in a game." No, everyone says, "Kouandjio had a disappointing rookie year." And people who just want to hand the keys to EJ because he has tools and he was a first round pick- did anyone say, "well even though Kouandjio had a bad camp and preseason, just give him the job over Henderson because he has a higher ceiling/was a higher pick?" No. You have to go out and earn your job. Go earn your job tonight EJ. I haven't heard a single person who wants to "hand EJ the keys." I read a lot of message boards. I don't think you are characterizing the majority of EJ supporters accurately. I think the previous coaching staff was incompetent. I wanted to see what EJ could do with established NFL coaches. Imo, he does look improved. He needs to improve more. I see no reason at this point to definitively say he won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 He's had 6,897 posts. You can only complain about the Bills Quarterbacking 6,738 ways. It's only just shy of the 43k+ posts the two of you have combined for defending the organization during their greatest period of ineptitude. But you can debate when the snark gets turned off. For now I stand by what I wrote. Their strategy hasn't worked and it could undermine what's been built already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) I haven't heard a single person who wants to "hand EJ the keys." I read a lot of message boards. I don't think you are characterizing the majority of EJ supporters accurately. I think the previous coaching staff was incompetent. I wanted to see what EJ could do with established NFL coaches. Imo, he does look improved. He needs to improve more. I see no reason at this point to definitively say he won't. I like the fact that there seems to be a semi-intelligent EJ discussion brewing on this thread without the name calling, etc. I would disagree with you however. I think a lot of people have this "we know what we have in Cassel so there's no point in starting him whatsoever- may as well let EJ start because he has a higher ceiling" attitude. Well for one, EJ may never hit the ceiling that Cassel has hit as a pro. My guess is he won't. And two, people say this while seemingly dismissing the fact that as we bicker on this board, the three of these guys are competing right now man vs. man and I'm sorry, bad coaching or not, third year in the league you better be able to beat out Matt Cassel for the starting job. Win the job. That's it. I agree with all the last three things you said: he has had a better camp than last year (I would hope so), he needs to improve more and I don't think any of even the staunch anti-EJ folks have said he "definitely" can't/won't improve. I just find it unlikely. Look, the Bills are going to start whoever gives them the best chance to win RIGHT NOW. The EJ people need to give up this idea that the organization should/will give him this leash to develop even if he's not producing. It's not 2013 anymore. Edited August 20, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It's only just shy of the 43k+ posts the two of you have combined for defending the organization during their greatest period of ineptitude. But you can debate when the snark gets turned off. For now I stand by what I wrote. Their strategy hasn't worked and it could undermine what's been built already. Straw man strikes again! I am critical when its appropriate, and I'm complimentary when it's appropriate. You simply choose to ignore the parts you don't agree with and argue points that I've never made...I'm done trying to understand why. You stated something that was--yet again--patently false, and got called on it. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It's only just shy of the 43k+ posts the two of you have combined for defending the organization during their greatest period of ineptitude. But you can debate when the snark gets turned off. For now I stand by what I wrote. Their strategy hasn't worked and it could undermine what's been built already. Sometimes I support. Sometimes I criticize. Every day I talk about all kinds of different elements of the team, players, and coaches and front office, offense and defense, stats and strategies, etc. You say the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and virtually never talk about anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) I like the fact that there seems to be a semi-intelligent EJ discussion brewing on this thread without the name calling, etc. I would disagree with you however. I think a lot of people have this "we know what we have in Cassel so there's no point in starting him whatsoever- may as well let EJ start because he has a higher ceiling" attitude. Well for one, EJ may never hit the ceiling that Cassel has hit as a pro. My guess is he won't. And two, people say this while seemingly dismissing the fact that as we bicker on this board, the three of these guys are competing right now man vs. man and I'm sorry, bad coaching or not, third year in the league you better be able to beat out Matt Cassel for the starting job. Win the job. That's it. I agree with all the last three things you said: he has had a better camp than last year (I would hope so), he needs to improve more and I don't think any of even the staunch anti-EJ folks have said he "definitely" can't/won't improve. I just find it unlikely. Look, the Bills are going to start whoever gives them the best chance to win RIGHT NOW. The EJ people need to give up this idea that the organization should/will give him this leash to develop even if he's not producing. It's not 2013 anymore. Okay, I think I understand you better. I'm fine with that, but in turn, many of the anti-EJ crowd want to cut him outright. I think that would be foolish. If he's not the starter, let him continue to develop. Edited August 20, 2015 by Dr. Who Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I understand "EJ guys," because I was a "Losman guy" when he was here. In 2006 he threw for over 3,000 YDS, 19TD to 14 INT, and completed 63% of his passes en route to an 85 QB rating for the season. He started all 16 games and the team went 7-9, but it seemed like success might be just around the corner. The next season fat Vince Wilfork dropped an elbow into his knee in a blatant cheapshot in week #3 in NE* and it was all pretty much over for him. So I get it. You're invested in EJ. I just don't get excited about him at all based on what I've seen. I could be wrong. It will all play itself out in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I understand "EJ guys," because I was a "Losman guy" when he was here. In 2006 he threw for over 3,000 YDS, 19TD to 14 INT, and completed 63% of his passes en route to an 85 QB rating for the season. He started all 16 games and the team went 7-9, but it seemed like success might be just around the corner. The next season fat Vince Wilfork dropped an elbow into his knee in a blatant cheapshot in week #3 in NE* and it was all pretty much over for him. So I get it. You're invested in EJ. I just don't get excited about him at all based on what I've seen. I could be wrong. It will all play itself out in time. I am curious about the fun police. Are they particularly amusing coppers or stern fellows bent on stomping out fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I am curious about the fun police. Are they particularly amusing coppers or stern fellows bent on stomping out fun? A bit of both. We need to be flexible on this squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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