thebandit27 Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Of course it is. But can you answer it without deflecting from the question? Okay, well, perhaps this will explain why the team needed a starting QB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback "In modern football, the quarterback is the leader of the offense. The quarterback touches the ball on almost every offensive play, and his successes and failures can have a significant impact on the fortunes of his team. Accordingly, the quarterback is among the most glorified and scrutinized positions in team sports.[2] Prior to each play, the quarterback tells the rest of his team which play the team will run; after the team is lined up, the center will pass the ball back between his legs to the quarterback (a process called the snap). On a running play, the quarterback will then hand or pitch the ball backwards to a running back. On a passing play, the quarterback will try to throw the ball downfield to a wide receiver, tight end, or running back.[3] Additionally, the quarterback can run with the ball himself. This could be part of a designed play like the option run[4] or quarterback sneak,[5] or it could be an impromptu effort to avoid being sacked by the defense.[6]" I cannot fathom why you're asking this question. It was beyond clear that Fitz wasn't good enough to get the offense to an even mediocre level, and they had nobody on the roster that could play. They signed Kolb, who was fragile and uninspirinig, so they needed to draft a guy that could be the potential franchise QB. So let's hear your opinion on why they didn't need a starting QB in 2013. For that matter, why do they need one now? Let's just play with an OL, 3 TEs, and 3 RBs...great idea BillsVet; I think you're onto something! Because he wasn't good maybe? You take a prospect with long term potential in the 3rd or 4th round, not the first. Why is that so confusing? I don't agree with that at all, and judging by history, neither do NFL GMs. If you need a QB, and you don't have one, you identify the guy you like the best, and you get your guy. There's no question that EJ was the guy that the front office identified as having the most optimal tool set to become a franchise guy, so why risk that another team would take him in the late first or early 2nd (which, according to reports, would've happened)?
LB3 Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Last time I checked young QBs struggle with accuracy until they get comfortable with the system and speed of the game. If you are rushing your throws because you're unsure of what you're seeing it leads to - wait for it - inaccurate throws. All the talk of "you can't improve accuracy" is a bunch of bunk. Most QBs have their completion percentage improve through their first 4-5 years in the league. It's amazing to me how nobody will cut this kid any slack. You'd think he was a douchebag with as much as people pile on a young guy trying to learn the position. It really is pathetic how much "I told you so" means to some people. Edited August 12, 2015 by LBSeeBallLBGetBall
Augie Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Because he wasn't good maybe? You take a prospect with long term potential in the 3rd or 4th round, not the first. Unless they are a QB. Those guys don't last. Was it too early? Maybe, but the tradeback makes it more tolerable. Having said that, I've watched a LOT of FSU football and Winston just looks like an NFL QB to me, and I'm not sure I'll ever see that in EJ. I hope I do see it some day, but I'm far from certain. He has his moments, but then the next play happens.
hondo in seattle Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Everyone knew EJ was a flawed college QB. There's no news here. Very, very few college QBs - if any - are NFL ready. They all have to learn new skills to compete at the NFL level. The question is, can they learn what they need to learn? Can they take the next step? Obviously, Buddy Nix and others in the Bills organization felt EJ could. Or at least, given the roster at the time, they felt he was worth a roll of the dice. Every college QB has his critics and 99% of the time the critics are right because most college QBs will never become good NFL starters. I'm not impressed by the acumen of these FSU fans. Sorry.
Solomon Grundy Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Name one quality NFL QB from FSU... I can name a SB winning QB from FSU
Best Player Available Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) EJ Manuel Stock price: IPO 11.70. Today 5.10. Buy or sell? Edited August 12, 2015 by Best Player Available
Kelly the Dog Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Okay, well, perhaps this will explain why the team needed a starting QB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback "In modern football, the quarterback is the leader of the offense. The quarterback touches the ball on almost every offensive play, and his successes and failures can have a significant impact on the fortunes of his team. Accordingly, the quarterback is among the most glorified and scrutinized positions in team sports.[2] Prior to each play, the quarterback tells the rest of his team which play the team will run; after the team is lined up, the center will pass the ball back between his legs to the quarterback (a process called the snap). On a running play, the quarterback will then hand or pitch the ball backwards to a running back. On a passing play, the quarterback will try to throw the ball downfield to a wide receiver, tight end, or running back.[3] Additionally, the quarterback can run with the ball himself. This could be part of a designed play like the option run[4] or quarterback sneak,[5] or it could be an impromptu effort to avoid being sacked by the defense.[6]" I cannot fathom why you're asking this question. It was beyond clear that Fitz wasn't good enough to get the offense to an even mediocre level, and they had nobody on the roster that could play. They signed Kolb, who was fragile and uninspirinig, so they needed to draft a guy that could be the potential franchise QB. So let's hear your opinion on why they didn't need a starting QB in 2013. For that matter, why do they need one now? Let's just play with an OL, 3 TEs, and 3 RBs...great idea BillsVet; I think you're onto something! My good, but temporarily non-thinking Bandit. He's asking the question so he can say I told you so for the 2,795th time that we should have drafted Russell Wilson in 2012 or other hindsight 20/20 franchise QBs and not have been in this position in 2013
machine gun kelly Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 We've talked this one to death, but i maintain he has a guaranteed contract so like it or not, he'll be here this year and next year and will be a serviceable third string QB. I live in FL so have seen far too many EJ, Winston (I like him on the field), and Ponder games. The criticisms of Ponder and Manuel are valid. I also have nothing but the best interests in seeing EJ develop over 4 years and become a franchise QB. I seriously doubt he can improve on his accuracy and timing as well as anticipation of defenses. He's a great kid who just doesn/t have that football intelligence, but only about 15-20 guys in the world have it. It's just not that easy.
metzelaars_lives Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Winston also had 65 TD's to go with his 28 Int. For comparison: Winston - FSU Career: 851 Pass Attempts, 65 TD 28 Int. Jim Kelly - UM Career: 676 Pass Attempts, 33 TD 28 Int. For the millionth time, you cannot compare QB TD:INT ratios, or any QB stats for that matter, from 1982 to those of 2014. Edited August 12, 2015 by metzelaars_lives
Blokestradamus Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Name one quality NFL QB from FSU... Don't badmouth Danny Kanell, he searches for his name on Twitter.
metzelaars_lives Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Last time I checked young QBs struggle with accuracy until they get comfortable with the system and speed of the game. If you are rushing your throws because you're unsure of what you're seeing it leads to - wait for it - inaccurate throws. All the talk of "you can't improve accuracy" is a bunch of bunk. Most QBs have their completion percentage improve through their first 4-5 years in the league. It's amazing to me how nobody will cut this kid any slack. You'd think he was a douchebag with as much as people pile on a young guy trying to learn the position. I'm sorry if you think people are being mean about it. He does seem like a good guy, I agree. I guess ultimately I don't really feel that bad about it because he's going to walk out of here a multi-millionaire. The same way I didn't really feel bad about the Sabres firing Ted Nolan.
GG Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I'd wager that EJ will have a very long NFL career. He's got the tools and is self motivated and works hard. That's not a guy who will wash out of the NFL. It's possible he never develops into a legit starter, but there is always a place in the league for QBs like him. Hell, despite how many here want to paint things he's still in this QB competition and is giving Cassel a run for his money. Cassel being the 10 year vet. But yeah, EJ will wash out of the league... Todd Collins also had a very long NFL career. There's no doubt that given EJ's physicality he'll be on an NFL roster for a long time. But it's his contribution level that is the debate.
Big Gun Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Last time I checked young QBs struggle with accuracy until they get comfortable with the system and speed of the game. If you are rushing your throws because you're unsure of what you're seeing it leads to - wait for it - inaccurate throws. All the talk of "you can't improve accuracy" is a bunch of bunk. Most QBs have their completion percentage improve through their first 4-5 years in the league. It's amazing to me how nobody will cut this kid any slack. You'd think he was a douchebag with as much as people pile on a young guy trying to learn the position. Hey look, - wait for it - more EJ excuses. Improve accuracy? Ok whatever!
BillsVet Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Okay, well, perhaps this will explain why the team needed a starting QB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback No need to be sophomoric and deflect from the point, which you obviously avoid. As you won't answer the question, I'll go ahead and do it myself. The Bills absolutely refused to take a QB in the 2011 and 2012 drafts and that's why they are where they are today. Call it hindsight, call it whatever. The GM was adamant a journeyman on his 3rd team in 6 seasons (at the end of 2010) could start and win, most likely an opinion supported by the HC. After going 4-12 in that 2010 season, the GM and HC went against conventional wisdom which usually has a rebuilding team drafting a young QB early they can groom. Buffalo then re-signed said veteran in mid 2011 when he had early success, after which he predictably went downhill from mid-season on as teams prevented him from the short passing game employed by the HC to cover up for his weak arm. The journeyman lasted another season before being dumped in a salary cap decision which then left the Bills with no young QB to groom in 2013. No one every makes good decisions when in desperate need for something. You can quibble, distort, or disqualify that take. But at the game's most crucial decision they had set themselves up to be forced into taking a QB in 2013, which ultimately proved to be a very poor draft year for QBs.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 I don't understand what folks don't understand about the EJ pick. The team needed a potential franchise guy to groom, since they hadn't attempted to draft one in nearly a decade. It wasn't a great year for franchise QB prospects, so they did the smart thing, traded down for extra picks, and then took the guy with the most physical tools (size, athleticism, arm, intelligence, work ethic, etc.). What is so confusing about that? They literarily said out of the options, they simply thought his issues were most fixable. Why the bills continue missing on QBs is hard to understand, but they made the best risk decision they thought they could at the time.
thebandit27 Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 My good, but temporarily non-thinking Bandit. He's asking the question so he can say I told you so for the 2,795th time that we should have drafted Russell Wilson in 2012 or other hindsight 20/20 franchise QBs and not have been in this position in 2013 you called it: No need to be sophomoric and deflect from the point, which you obviously avoid. As you won't answer the question, I'll go ahead and do it myself. The Bills absolutely refused to take a QB in the 2011 and 2012 drafts and that's why they are where they are today. Call it hindsight, call it whatever. The GM was adamant a journeyman on his 3rd team in 6 seasons (at the end of 2010) could start and win, most likely an opinion supported by the HC. After going 4-12 in that 2010 season, the GM and HC went against conventional wisdom which usually has a rebuilding team drafting a young QB early they can groom. Buffalo then re-signed said veteran in mid 2011 when he had early success, after which he predictably went downhill from mid-season on as teams prevented him from the short passing game employed by the HC to cover up for his weak arm. The journeyman lasted another season before being dumped in a salary cap decision which then left the Bills with no young QB to groom in 2013. No one every makes good decisions when in desperate need for something. You can quibble, distort, or disqualify that take. But at the game's most crucial decision they had set themselves up to be forced into taking a QB in 2013, which ultimately proved to be a very poor draft year for QBs. So instead of stating your opinion about the 2011 and 2012 drafts, which are a total and complete non-sequitur to the current discussion of the quality of the team's 2013 1st-round pick--EJ Manuel--you decided to ask a question totally unrelated to the point you were trying to make, and then proceed to call me sophomoric for answering the exact question that you asked? Nice work. The statement that I made, that you responded to, was that the team needed to draft a QB in 2013 because they hadn't done so in nearly a decade. You clearly missed this, so I'll explain: that means that I recognize that the team hadn't drafted a QB in nearly a decade. There was absolutely zero need for a long, drawn-out set up to reiterate a point that I had stated as a given from the onset of my comments in this thread; you might say it was sophomoric of you. So, let me start over with me original statement, and we'll see what you don't understand about it (if you actually read it and think about it this time, and then bother to respond with something that perhaps I hadn't addressed within this very post): I don't understand what folks don't understand about the EJ pick. The team needed a potential franchise guy to groom, since they hadn't attempted to draft one in nearly a decade. It wasn't a great year for franchise QB prospects, so they did the smart thing, traded down for extra picks, and then took the guy with the most physical tools (size, athleticism, arm, intelligence, work ethic, etc.). What is so confusing about that? They literarily said out of the options, they simply thought his issues were most fixable. Why the bills continue missing on QBs is hard to understand, but they made the best risk decision they thought they could at the time. Seriously...this isn't a hard concept.
FireChan Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Last time I checked young QBs struggle with accuracy until they get comfortable with the system and speed of the game. If you are rushing your throws because you're unsure of what you're seeing it leads to - wait for it - inaccurate throws. All the talk of "you can't improve accuracy" is a bunch of bunk. Most QBs have their completion percentage improve through their first 4-5 years in the league. It's amazing to me how nobody will cut this kid any slack. You'd think he was a douchebag with as much as people pile on a young guy trying to learn the position. Because as more tape comes out, he'll be even more horrific.
shibuya Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 From a college board - all teams - in general very critically thinking fans: 1. Bills saw a 6'5 guy with great character, personality, and work ethic and failed to notice he was not a QB worth drafting anywhere near that high. EJ is a great guy and played for my team but I said at the time he was a guaranteed bust, was shocked any professionals could watch his tape and see a 1st rd pick. His biggest problems weren't really ones you can dramatically improve. Yoy either have good timing, anticipation, and feel for the gane or you don't. A QB with horrible anticipation, timing, and ability to read a defense in college is not someone you draft on day 1. EJ would wait until a WR made his break and was open and stationary before he would throw it. The very first game Jameis played it was night and day, Jameis anticipated and threw before guys even broke. WRs didn't have to wait on the ball because of an EJ floater or late throw. Not everyone is Winston, but EJ had god awful timing and anticipation. Jameis could also read a defense, see the field, and knew where his WRs were supposed to be 10 times better in game 1/as a FR than EJ as a Sr. I don't think EJ always knew where everyone was supposed to be which is why he had to wait until they were there to throw it. Jameis knew where people were supposed to be so he was anle to anticipate better. EJ is a smart guy but I don't think he was football smart. 2. I'm a Nole and will never understand how they saw tape of EJ and thought he was first rd much less a top 15 talent. Dude had horrible timing on his passes, couldn't even read a college defense, threw floaters, constantly spun away 10 yards to turn a 10 yard sack into a 20 yard sack, couldn't go through his progressions, etc x 10. God damn you hit this **** right on the head. Him getting drafted in the first round will probably go down as one of the biggest WTF moments in the history of the NFL draft. I literally laughed when he was drafted. Look, nice guy, represented our school with class and all that jazz, but he was horrendous. He was absolutely the governor on that 2012 team. Had we started Winston over him, I have no doubt we atleast make the national championship game and probably win it. That 2012 team was just as loaded as 2013. 3. EJ could never hit the broad side of a barn! That's why he never played for a NC at FSU. Jameis took the very same roster EJ had and won a Heisman and a NC as a Freshman! I was shocked to see EJ get drafted in the first round after continually over throwing every WR for 4 years. 4. Just to reiterate what fellow Noles are saying ITT, I was floored when EJ was taken 15th overall. All those guys with alleged great FB minds looked at the tape of his career and thought he was the answer. It fvcking amazes me that multiple people signed off on that pick. What a disaster. Just a great kid that has slow eyes and no killer instinct. How does that happen? i did not cherry pick a thread on our QB situation. There's much more here: http://forums.rivals.com/threads/holy-****-ej-manuel-is-a-waste-of-space.185328/#post-4622295 You will never see VT fans talk this way about Tyrod. In fairness, FSU fans are spoiled by 5-star talent and feel entitled to win more than most fan bases - not necessarily a bad thing - just is. Every single thing mentioned in this quote is exactly what we have seen from EJ. He had the most upside of any of the QB's drafted that year, but unfortunately the fact is you can not teach a chronically inaccurate unable to see the whole field, miss timing QB. You either are born with these skills and can hone them, or you are not born with these skills and will never acquire them no matter how hard you work. Hopefully our next drafted QB will have demonstrated some consistency before they pull the trigger. I've backed EJ but the my biggest fear when we drafted him has come to full fruition. He will never be consistent NEVER!. He may show flashes but I can guarantee it won't carry over through multiple games or a season, he just wasn't born with that ability
hondo in seattle Posted August 12, 2015 Posted August 12, 2015 Todd Collins also had a very long NFL career. There's no doubt that given EJ's physicality he'll be on an NFL roster for a long time. But it's his contribution level that is the debate. That's a scary comparison. Brings back bad memories.
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