Stupid, but honest question - QB Throws

[mikef272002]

I'll throw my 2 cents in, I'm no NFL OC, but I have been an offensive coordinator/ QB and RB coach for many years on our local team. I agree with what some said that right now the coaches are probably less worried about "the play" of a QB and more about his reads. In the NFL a lot of plays are designed to go to a spot, and if the WR does not make it to that spot it appears that the QB made a bad throw when really it's on the WR for not getting to his spot. Other things come into play such as, if a WR is running an out pattern for example the QB is try to throw the ball to a place on the WR has a chance to make a play on it so it don't get intercepted, sometime the coverage is so tight that they are throwing it out in front of the WR so he can make a high light catch rather than giving the CB any chance of an interception. Ofcourse, pressure from the Defense, pre snap looks (confusion by the D) and the play call all come into effect also. I understand your point that these are NFL QB's that have been playing their whole life and should make throws accurately, but each WR has a different speed and height, it takes time to get used to throwing to each one, and of course it don't help when a WR runs one play full speed and another at 90% speed..

[26TrapDraw]

I do have to wonder if we've started to reach a point of diminishing returns with the 3 QB rotation during practice. Most of the teams with established guys are giving the vast majority of snaps to their #1 guy to allow him to build a rapport with the receivers and line, while the backup QBs are watching from the sideline and getting spare reps. By rotating through 3 guys, we are essentially giving whoever is going to be the #1 guy 1/3rd of the practice time the top guys are getting elsewhere.

I agree with you. I think by week two of preseason you have to make a call. The starter needs to get his timing down with his starting receivers for the season. You give him the lionshare of reps and not look back.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

NFL QB's usually throw on timing rather than vision

 

 

This ... the way it was always explained to me is,

Before college: throw after the break

During college: throw right when the break occurs

Pros: throw before the break

 

 

Basically during the time in college and before they are watching the receiver and know where they are going to be, but during the pros the are throwing to a spot where the receiver "should" be.

 

I have never played but it make a lot of sense as to why you see a so called regression. It takes a lot to trust your receivers to be where they are supposed to be some guys probably can get out of the habit of watching their receivers

[Fadingpain]

I do have to wonder if we've started to reach a point of diminishing returns with the 3 QB rotation during practice. Most of the teams with established guys are giving the vast majority of snaps to their #1 guy to allow him to build a rapport with the receivers and line, while the backup QBs are watching from the sideline and getting spare reps. By rotating through 3 guys, we are essentially giving whoever is going to be the #1 guy 1/3rd of the practice time the top guys are getting elsewhere.

I agree and for this reason, I think a starter will be named sooner than Rex lets on.

 

This competition won't run the length of pre-season. No way.

[hondo in seattle]

I understand the complexity of reading a defense and the pressure of having Super Mario breathing down your neck when making a throw. Being a QB is easily one of the top skill positions amongst all of sports and only about 15 teams in the world seem to have a good one.

 

However, with all of these Qb's out there that have played in pee wee, why do I keep reading about all of these guys missing open throws in practice. I can handle the int's and the sacks. But when I'm reading the twitter feed and it's all about missing the WR's by 10-15 yards under no stress, I'm just baffled. And it seems to be with all of them. How is it possible that these guys made it this far? How can they be this bad?

 

I mean, I remember Cassel playing for the Pats and he could at least hit the wide open guys. Even EJ could at least get the ball in the vicinity, whether it be low or behind the guy.

 

Maybe they are just exaggerating. But how can they be as bad as they are making them out to be?

 

 

I sympathize with your observation. I was watching Jake Locker once go through some passing drills as part of some pre-draft evaluation. I couldn't help but think that a couple of my friends and I were more accurate than him when we were younger. It seemed like he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

 

But Locker was more athletic than my friends and I. Could throw with more zip and for greater distances. Could read defenses better, release the ball faster, etc. Accuracy is just one of many skills a QB must have.

 

Plus watching on TV is probably misleading. The targets he was throwing at were probably smaller than they seemed on TV. And the moving targets probably moved faster than they appeared to me.

 

As far as game day/full scrimmage accuracy, others make good points about NFL DEs coming at you, trying to throw before the receiver actually makes his cut, throwing to spots at a precise moment in time, getting the ball out of your hand in 2.5 seconds, and so on.

 

Another thing is that the NFL lineman are huge. I remember playing big neighborhood games where I had trouble seeing over the line, and I'm 6'1" playing sandlot. In the NFL, you may only get glimpses of your target in the so-called throwing lanes, and all those guys downfield are moving super fast. It's got to be challenging.

Edited August 11, 2015 by hondo in seattle

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I understand the complexity of reading a defense and the pressure of having Super Mario breathing down your neck when making a throw. Being a QB is easily one of the top skill positions amongst all of sports and only about 15 teams in the world seem to have a good one.

 

However, with all of these Qb's out there that have played in pee wee, why do I keep reading about all of these guys missing open throws in practice. I can handle the int's and the sacks. But when I'm reading the twitter feed and it's all about missing the WR's by 10-15 yards under no stress, I'm just baffled. And it seems to be with all of them. How is it possible that these guys made it this far? How can they be this bad?

 

I mean, I remember Cassel playing for the Pats and he could at least hit the wide open guys. Even EJ could at least get the ball in the vicinity, whether it be low or behind the guy.

 

Maybe they are just exaggerating. But how can they be as bad as they are making them out to be?

 

I could be wrong and often am, especially since I don't watch much football other than NFL. To my limited observation, the major difference between a pro passing game and pee wee/high school/most college is that in the latter the QB throws to the open receiver most of the time eg the receiver gets open, the QB makes the throw. In NFL, the game is way too fast for that and the routes are all about timing.

 

So there are two parts - the speed of the receiver and the precision of the route he runs (assuming WCO) and the timing of the QB throw, set by the drop (3,5,7). So it's perfectly possible for a QB in a WCO to miss a receiver wildly because he hesitated, and by the time the ball got to the correct spot the receiver had already "been and gone". When I've looked, this is the most common reason for EJ to miss wildly, you can see it if you look carefully at some of his throws in all-22, he is throwing to where a guy was a fraction of a second previously. The other possibility has to do with receiver speed or being jammed on the LOS...the QB knows what to expect out of a receiver for speed and if the receiver doesn't run full-go (or is badly jammed on the LOS) the QB throw will be way past the WR.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

I agree with you. I think by week two of preseason you have to make a call. The starter needs to get his timing down with his starting receivers for the season. You give him the lionshare of reps and not look back.

On what basis do you make the call that early? They haven't even played in a preseason game yet. It makes all the difference in the world how you react in a game situation. If it wasn't a truly "open" competition, of course you could more comfortably make the call early on. I'd rather get it right than act based on supposition.

[K-9]

 

I could be wrong and often am, especially since I don't watch much football other than NFL. To my limited observation, the major difference between a pro passing game and pee wee/high school/most college is that in the latter the QB throws to the open receiver most of the time eg the receiver gets open, the QB makes the throw. In NFL, the game is way too fast for that and the routes are all about timing.

 

So there are two parts - the speed of the receiver and the precision of the route he runs (assuming WCO) and the timing of the QB throw, set by the drop (3,5,7). So it's perfectly possible for a QB in a WCO to miss a receiver wildly because he hesitated, and by the time the ball got to the correct spot the receiver had already "been and gone". When I've looked, this is the most common reason for EJ to miss wildly, you can see it if you look carefully at some of his throws in all-22, he is throwing to where a guy was a fraction of a second previously. The other possibility has to do with receiver speed or being jammed on the LOS...the QB knows what to expect out of a receiver for speed and if the receiver doesn't run full-go (or is badly jammed on the LOS) the QB throw will be way past the WR.

Good stuff here. I would only add that it really doesn't matter if it's a "WCO" or not; timing routes need to be run in sync with the QB's dropback. GREAT point about receivers getting jammed and disrupting the timing. It happens all the time as we see. Good QBs compensate by buying back some time with good movement and THIS is where EJ struggles the most IMO. When he is forced to move his lower mechanics go to crap and he seldom resets his feet properly which results in inaccuracy.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[reddogblitz]

Sal is "trippin"!! He just said on WGR that Manuel basically has no chance of starting because of yesterday's practice. Why is he so high on Tyrod Taylor?

 

In the old days we would say it sells papers. Now it just gets clicks.

Edited August 11, 2015 by reddogblitz

[Chuck Wagon]

 

 

I sympathize with your observation. I was watching Jake Locker once go through some passing drills as part of some pre-draft evaluation. I couldn't help but think that a couple of my friends and I were more accurate than him when we were younger. It seemed like he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

 

But Locker was more athletic than my friends and I. Could throw with more zip and for greater distances. Could read defenses better, release the ball faster, etc. Accuracy is just one of many skills a QB must have.

 

Plus watching on TV is probably misleading. The targets he was throwing at were probably smaller than they seemed on TV. And the moving targets probably moved faster than they appeared to me.

 

As far as game day/full scrimmage accuracy, others make good points about NFL DEs coming at you, trying to throw before the receiver actually makes his cut, throwing to spots at a precise moment in time, getting the ball out of your hand in 2.5 seconds, and so on.

 

Another thing is that the NFL lineman are huge. I remember playing big neighborhood games where I had trouble seeing over the line, and I'm 6'1" playing sandlot. In the NFL, you may only get glimpses of your target in the so-called throwing lanes, and all those guys downfield are moving super fast. It's got to be challenging.

 

 

I remember watching an ESPN special segment leading up to college football kickoff from 2010. They had a group of Pac 10 QBs (Luck, Locker, Darron Thomas, Osweiler, Foles, Barkley) and wanted the guys to hit a helmet ~25 yards away. Everyone went and all the guys needed multiple throws to hit the target and either Thomas or Locker (don't recall for sure which one) did embarrassingly bad. Then Luck stepped up, first throw drilled the helmet no problem.

[prissythecat]

 

 

I remember watching an ESPN special segment leading up to college football kickoff from 2010. They had a group of Pac 10 QBs (Luck, Locker, Darron Thomas, Osweiler, Foles, Barkley) and wanted the guys to hit a helmet ~25 yards away. Everyone went and all the guys needed multiple throws to hit the target and either Thomas or Locker (don't recall for sure which one) did embarrassingly bad. Then Luck stepped up, first throw drilled the helmet no problem.

 

 

Am sure Alex Tanney -- The Trick Shot QB -- would have had no problem doing that

[BackInDaDay]

i have to believe that our current OC and WR coach will pay better attention to our receivers getting into and out of their patterns as drawn up, than their predecessors. this speaks to the comments of the NFL passing game being all about timing - which i agree with. it has to be this way because the reaction time and recovery speed of the defenders is unparalleled at lessor levels of the game. unfortunately, the only way to get an inaccurate passer to complete his throws is to widen his passing lanes - to extend the time his receiver has to adjust to where the ball's thrown. we don't have the luxury of letting teams sit back and react to our routes, because our QBs will not complete enough tight throws. Roman must get the defense to choose where and how it will weaken itself - and if he's as good as i think he is - he will lead them where he wants them, enough to allow his mediocre QBs make plays. his ability to communicate his gameplan to his QBs - and his ability to probe, attack, adjust, in game - will be the difference between making critical plays that keep scoring drives alive, and turning the ball over on downs or picks. he has a diverse set of skill players to work with, and unless the O-line is a disaster, i expect that every pass play he calls will be set up from something else. there aren't many elite QBs in the league. this is how the majority of teams must operate. if last year's staff had a clue how to manipulate a defense, we may have scored enough for 1 or 2 more wins. i'm not too worried about our QBs accuracy issues because of this.. yet.

Edited August 11, 2015 by BackInDaDay

[Virgil]

i have to believe that our current OC and WR coach will pay better attention to our receivers getting into and out of their patterns as drawn up, than their predecessors. this speaks to the comments of the NFL passing game being all about timing - which i agree with. it has to be this way because the reaction time and recovery speed of the defenders is unparalleled at lessor levels of the game. unfortunately, the only way to get an inaccurate passer to complete his throws is to widen his passing lanes - to extend the time his receiver has to adjust to where the ball's thrown. we don't have the luxury of letting teams sit back and react to our routes, because our QBs will not complete enough tight throws. Roman must get the defense to choose where and how it will weaken itself - and if he's as good as i think he is - he will lead them where he wants them, enough to allow his mediocre QBs make plays. his ability to communicate his gameplan to his QBs - and his ability to probe, attack, adjust, in game - will be the difference between making critical plays that keep scoring drives alive, and turning the ball over on downs or picks. he has a diverse set of skill players to work with, and unless the O-line is a disaster, i expect that every pass play he calls will be set up from something else. there aren't many elite QBs in the league. this is how the majority of teams must operate. if last year's staff had a clue how to manipulate a defense, we may have scored enough for 1 or 2 more wins. i'm not too worried about our QBs accuracy issues because of this.. yet.

I'm sure there's a point in there, but I can't even read this.

[BackInDaDay]

I'm sure there's a point in there, but I can't even read this.

don't be so sure..