Virgil Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 I understand the complexity of reading a defense and the pressure of having Super Mario breathing down your neck when making a throw. Being a QB is easily one of the top skill positions amongst all of sports and only about 15 teams in the world seem to have a good one. However, with all of these Qb's out there that have played in pee wee, why do I keep reading about all of these guys missing open throws in practice. I can handle the int's and the sacks. But when I'm reading the twitter feed and it's all about missing the WR's by 10-15 yards under no stress, I'm just baffled. And it seems to be with all of them. How is it possible that these guys made it this far? How can they be this bad? I mean, I remember Cassel playing for the Pats and he could at least hit the wide open guys. Even EJ could at least get the ball in the vicinity, whether it be low or behind the guy. Maybe they are just exaggerating. But how can they be as bad as they are making them out to be?
Beef Jerky Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Cassel playing for the Pats... They missed the playoffs that year. Went from a 19-1 team to 11-5, he was a -8 game QB.
Mark80 Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) I hear what you are saying. I dabbled in playing a little QB back in the day and am by no means great or even very good. I've got a decent arm, that's it. But when I'm throwing the ball around with my friends I can pretty much hit all of them in stride within 20 or 25 yards down the field. After that it starts to get tougher for me. You would think ANY pro would be able to do it without pressure at least 40 to 45 yards down the field. Part of the problem may be the increased difficulty there is on breaks and timing routes, but a deep ball, a post route, a slant/drag, a flats throw or screen pass...that's easy stuff I would think. Edited August 11, 2015 by Mark80
Solomon Grundy Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Like Rex said, some WRs run the wrong route. Some don't run full out. Pressure from DLine make you rush throw. There are different variables that take place the "reporters" aren't reporting.
White Linen Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) IMO the local media really doesn't have a clue. They haven't been to other training camps throughout the league to compare how teams without a franchise QB with a great defense - are performing compared to ours. The national media picks up on the local media's vibe and uses that to derive their opinion - so that's hearsay. Another example - Rex said he was "impressed" with EJ after the scrimmage - but Sal on WGR said he wouldn't call it being impressed. Well who the heck is he to not be impressed when the head coach is? Edited August 11, 2015 by Triple Threat
Rubes Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) For what it's worth, my brother-in-law is a Bears fan and season ticket holder, and I used to live in Chicago, so I've kept an eye on them over the years. Not that it means anything, but I remember watching Orton his first couple of years in the league, and I have to say, I remember thinking he was the worst QB I have ever seen play this game. Dude was just unwatchable. I have no idea how he managed to survive and make a long career of it, but man, he was just God-awful those first few years. EJ is light years ahead of where he was back then. Edited August 11, 2015 by Rubes
BackInDaDay Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 At this point, Roman is probably more concerned with his QBs ability to recognize coverages, make the right decision where to go with the ball, and make the throw. The idea of rotating the QBs through multiple levels of talent in practice was designed to give the coaches an idea of who can best perform these tasks consistently. Frankly, he's probably disappointed that none of them has risen above the others. As far as the poor throws, go.. inaccurate passers must make a sound read on who their first and second options will be presnap, because they need a bigger a window to be successful. Inaccurate passers who are unsure where their first couple options are, will try to force the ball where they shouldn't.. often throwing to the receiver's vicinity.. away from the defenders they can see. Balls delivered high, low, and behind are symptomatic of a confused QB who lacks the accuracy to recover from his poor choices. Bringing a QB up to speed is like any other learning process - complete with tests. It appears that none of our guys are passing their tougher tests with flying colors. Even if Roman and Ryan are disappointed that none are killin it, they shouldn't be shocked. They both knew that it's imperative that they force opponents to bring defenders to the LOS by running the ball successfully. Roman's all about gaining a numbers advantage, and if he can force opposing DCs to sacrifice cover people to stop our runs, he should be able to incorporate play action pass into his gameplans, along with formations and and motion that can move a thinned out secondary out of passing lanes - to open those windows for our inconsistent QBs. Hopefully, the 'high, low and behinds' will only surface in practice when the season gets moving.
Alaska Darin Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 I think NFL offenses are far too complex for most young player's mental skill sets and it affects their physical play. I remember watching Rothlishamberger his first season. The Steelers gave him one read on each passing play and if it wasn't there, he was to throw the ball away. They didn't try and install 100% of the offense out of the gate and overwhelm the guy. Manuel has always been inaccurate. Adding complexity to the game might not have as large an effect on him but there's no doubt that his play regressed last season despite being in the same system with the same coaches. To me that's a very large indictment on Marrone and company. More QBs have been ruined by coaches than have been made.
ALF Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) I think NFL offenses are far too complex for most young player's mental skill sets and it affects their physical play. I remember watching Rothlishamberger his first season. The Steelers gave him one read on each passing play and if it wasn't there, he was to throw the ball away. They didn't try and install 100% of the offense out of the gate and overwhelm the guy. Manuel has always been inaccurate. Adding complexity to the game might not have as large an effect on him but there's no doubt that his play regressed last season despite being in the same system with the same coaches. To me that's a very large indictment on Marrone and company. More QBs have been ruined by coaches than have been made. This makes the most sense, especially a new system, receivers run the wrong route also. Works for some college teams, just read one side of field each play , till ready for more. Edited August 11, 2015 by ALF
Buffalo Boy Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Remember how good Bledsoe was the first year with us? He was breaking Kelly's records. The next year he came out of the gate the same until we played the first NE game. After that, he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Guys were running ten yard dig routes just to give him a chance and he was still missing them. That has always stuck with me.
PlayoffsPlease Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Good question. I am only guessing, but I think the amount of time the QBs have to make the pass, even without pressure, is less than they had at every pre-nfl level. In general the amount of time they have to process all of the information going on on the field is less. This might effect accuracy.
Chuck Wagon Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 I do have to wonder if we've started to reach a point of diminishing returns with the 3 QB rotation during practice. Most of the teams with established guys are giving the vast majority of snaps to their #1 guy to allow him to build a rapport with the receivers and line, while the backup QBs are watching from the sideline and getting spare reps. By rotating through 3 guys, we are essentially giving whoever is going to be the #1 guy 1/3rd of the practice time the top guys are getting elsewhere.
CountryCletus Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 NFL QB's usually throw on timing rather than vision
Solomon Grundy Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 IMO the local media really doesn't have a clue. They haven't been to other training camps throughout the league to compare how teams without a franchise QB with a great defense - are performing compared to ours. The national media picks up on the local media's vibe and uses that to derive their opinion - so that's hearsay. Another example - Rex said he was "impressed" with EJ after the scrimmage - but Sal on WGR said he wouldn't call it being impressed. Well who the heck is he to not be impressed when the head coach is? Sal is "trippin"!! He just said on WGR that Manuel basically has no chance of starting because of yesterday's practice. Why is he so high on Tyrod Taylor?
White Linen Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Sal is "trippin"!! He just said on WGR that Manuel basically has no chance of starting because of yesterday's practice. Why is he so high on Tyrod Taylor? Honestly. He went from doing shows in his home office to a QB whisperer? I like listening to Sal but he confuses commentary with being a football expert. Edited August 11, 2015 by Triple Threat
The Poojer Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Did you ever see a pitcher have trouble tossing the ball to 1st base on a comeback hit, yet paint the corner while throwing 90-100 mph to get the final out to win the world series? I understand the complexity of reading a defense and the pressure of having Super Mario breathing down your neck when making a throw. Being a QB is easily one of the top skill positions amongst all of sports and only about 15 teams in the world seem to have a good one. However, with all of these Qb's out there that have played in pee wee, why do I keep reading about all of these guys missing open throws in practice. I can handle the int's and the sacks. But when I'm reading the twitter feed and it's all about missing the WR's by 10-15 yards under no stress, I'm just baffled. And it seems to be with all of them. How is it possible that these guys made it this far? How can they be this bad? I mean, I remember Cassel playing for the Pats and he could at least hit the wide open guys. Even EJ could at least get the ball in the vicinity, whether it be low or behind the guy. Maybe they are just exaggerating. But how can they be as bad as they are making them out to be?
Dorkington Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 (edited) Every other team's QBs complete 100% of their passes in training camp. It's a fact. - Joe B. Did you ever see a pitcher have trouble tossing the ball to 1st base on a comeback hit, yet paint the corner while throwing 90-100 mph to get the final out to win the world series? What about dudes who shoot 45% from three, but then miss a wide open layup? Edited August 11, 2015 by Dorkington
K D Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 Cassel has never been a good QB. he didn't even start in college over a guy that didn't even last 1 week here. the reason he is a pro QB, and most likely our starter, is consistency. he is consistently mediocre, but at least you know what you are going to get. Manuel and Taylor will look good one play and then look terrible the next. they try and do too much. that's why Cassel will win the job unfortunately. those other guys are defeating themselves and Cassel is going to win by default. as for missing wide open guys, QB's at any level do that when they are under pressure, rushing their throws, being lazy with their mechanics, second guessing the throw and not committing, and sometimes just plain missing the throw...it happens for a lot of reasons. watch EJ when he misses. he is doing so because he feels the pressure and is hurrying the throw. this results in bad mechanics and he ends up short arming a lot of his throws instead of stepping into them and following through and letting it rip. i would love to see Manuel step into a throw and deliver a fast ball one of these times. if i'm the QB coach i'm telling EJ to throw it as hard as he can and i'd probably go as far as to bring a radar gun to keep him honest. EJ just needs to let it rip and stop being such a sissy
Nanker Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 I do have to wonder if we've started to reach a point of diminishing returns with the 3 QB rotation during practice. Most of the teams with established guys are giving the vast majority of snaps to their #1 guy to allow him to build a rapport with the receivers and line, while the backup QBs are watching from the sideline and getting spare reps. By rotating through 3 guys, we are essentially giving whoever is going to be the #1 guy 1/3rd of the practice time the top guys are getting elsewhere. This week's game will be critical in that regard. Rex is running out of time to name the #1 QB. He'd like to have been able to have him in place right now and for the reasons you stated. The #1 needs to get all the reps he can with the other first teamers before the season starts. Sal is "trippin"!! He just said on WGR that Manuel basically has no chance of starting because of yesterday's practice. Why is he so high on Tyrod Taylor?It's not that he's high on TT so much as he's down on EJ.
GG Posted August 11, 2015 Posted August 11, 2015 I think NFL offenses are far too complex for most young player's mental skill sets and it affects their physical play. I remember watching Rothlishamberger his first season. The Steelers gave him one read on each passing play and if it wasn't there, he was to throw the ball away. They didn't try and install 100% of the offense out of the gate and overwhelm the guy. Manuel has always been inaccurate. Adding complexity to the game might not have as large an effect on him but there's no doubt that his play regressed last season despite being in the same system with the same coaches. To me that's a very large indictment on Marrone and company. More QBs have been ruined by coaches than have been made. Chicken or the egg? Were the QBs ruined, or did the QBs never take the next step? More often than not, the project QBs who have improved over time showed a constant progression to justify continued investment. More often than not, the project QBs who have not improved over time showed a constant propensity to be inconsistent to justify stopping the investment. Whether it was Marrone & Co or EJ, reality is that he did not show improvement over the rookie year, and started regressing in the first part of the season. Coaches are like other managers. They read the high profile employee's resume and they get scouting reports/recommendations/feedback from a previous employer. That employee has to live up to the billing, or in case of expected improvement needs to show why prior reports were wrong. I get a sense that Marrone & Co felt that EJ was not going to make the next step. That set up EJ further behind in expectations for Ryan & Co, and that's why I think he's a longshot.
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