Nanker Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Tonight kicks off the 2016 Debates. That is, the Tepublican debates for the candidates for the Presidency of the United States. The Dems seem to be forego in this formality and simply anointing their candidate who "deserves" to be their standard bearer because she's entitled to it. There is a lower card and a Prime Time card. Lets discuss the debates. I would like to see Carly Fiorina rise up into the upper tier. Though The Donald is squatting heavily on her "space". He's the only "Republican" with celebrity status that matches Hillary's. Indeed, I think his surpasses hers.
Magox Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I was gonna make a thread as well. My thoughts: I underestimated Trump. He seems to be pulling off a phenomenal political trickery and his ceiling is increasing. Having said that, another new poll came out of N.H and all the top tier candidates are beating Hillary and Hillary is spanking Trump by 10. So this is a great opportunity for Trump to show that he isn't as crazy as everyone who casually pays attention believe him to be. If he can somehow come off as reasonable (which he hasn't) then his ceiling will only increase and most likely his lead as well. I sometimes wonder are we now witnessing the greatest political con job of all time. Right now he is doing horrible with independents and many in the establishment GOP. In order to win them over he would have to do some political ju jitsu. I think there is enough good will for Trump to where he could moderate his positions like a shape shifter and he would still be able to keep his supporters. They love him, he's like their cult hero, even though he really isn't a "conservative". I heard him the other morning on Morning Joe, and they were asking him about his previous support for Single Payer Healthcare. And he said something very interesting, which I am sure will be brought up tonight. Which was, that now he isn't for Single Payer because he doesn't think it would work here. But, the interesting part (which I knew he'd now change his position on Single payer) is that he would propose providing healthcare for the poorest 20-25% for free. SOmehow create a system to where he'd negotiate deals with the hospitals to provide free health insurance for 20-25% at the bottom of the economic totem pole. That NORMALLY would be a horrible position for today's conservatives. A non starter, but I think they'd give him a pass and to be honest, a policy that would be that compassionate to the poor would probably help his standing amongst moderates. I'd be very interested in hearing this discussed further.
Ozymandius Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 The three Fox moderators -- Wallace, Kelly, and Baier -- are going to give "gotcha" questions to Donald, and he'll need to handle them to continue advancing with a lead. Baier, I can maybe trust to be fair. But Kelly and Wallace are going to try to trip up the Trump. I hope you're prepared, Donald. American needs you.
Magox Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Baier, I can maybe trust to be fair. But Kelly and Wallace are going to try to trip up the Trump. Yeah, like asking him how he would specifically improve the economy? Damn Kelly and her gotcha questions.
IDBillzFan Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 That NORMALLY would be a horrible position for today's conservatives. It should be a non-starter for everyone because every time this government (left or right) tries to do something for the poor, it is then used as a vehicle to do something for the 'almost poor,' then the 'not so poor,' and then, before you know, "poor" is anyone making less than $80,000/year. Also, I've started to remember that the reason the media likes to elevate people like Trump to massive attention for amazing polls and 'tell it like it is' rhetoric is because the higher they can get him, the more dramatic will be his fall. And they LOVE to see someone fall from great heights. He will fall long before he gets the GOP nomination. Lastly, take note of the latest narrative from and for Trump: he's only bombastic toward people who throw the first punch. So the minute someone tries to argue against or criticize one of his points, it'll be interesting if he goes full gatorman on them right away.
Ozymandius Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Yeah, like asking him how he would specifically improve the economy? Damn Kelly and her gotcha questions. Oh, he would handle those simple questions with aplomb. If they just stick with policy questions, Trump will win the debate. Especially if Fox dares to mention trade agreements and immigration. But they won't.
Magox Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Oh, he would handle those simple questions with aplomb. If they just stick with policy questions, Trump will win the debate. Especially if Fox dares to mention trade agreements and immigration. But they won't. I agree, I specially like it when he they ask him how we would improve trade deals and he says: "I'm the best negotiator ever and I would hire Carl Icahn, who is a personal friend of mine and I'd tell him 'Carl, you are in charge of China'." He's awesome with those specifics.
Ozymandius Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I agree, I specially like it when he they ask him how we would improve trade deals and he says: "I'm the best negotiator ever and I would hire Carl Icahn, who is a personal friend of mine and I'd tell him 'Carl, you are in charge of China'." He's awesome with those specifics. Prepare to be surprised. I would be surprised if Fox even brings up trade, but if they do, Trump's answer will be better than Jeb's. Just watch. I've got my popcorn ready. If Fox keeps it fair, your boy Jeb will be smoked tonight.
IDBillzFan Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 If Fox keeps it fair, your boy Jeb will be smoked tonight. That'll make Trump and the Clintons very happy.
Azalin Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 It's going to be entertaining for sure, but let's be honest - it's more a contest of who can generate the best sound bites than it is a debate. Nobody will drop out of the race after tonight. To be honest, I'm hoping to catch some of the early debate if possible. Rick Perry alone is going to be comic gold. Did anyone catch his statement last week where he said (paraphrasing) " both the congress and the executive branch need to address the solutions facing the american people" ? I'm still laughing at that one.
Ozymandius Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 That'll make Trump and the Clintons very happy. The Clintons will be hoisted by their own petard (if you even believe that story with anonymous sources). If Trump wins the nomination, he will beat Hillary. I'll even put money on it if that time comes. But like I said, that's so far away. Trump's greatest threat is still Jeb and the evil establishment. It would be a historical upset if Trump can overcome the odds.
Magox Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 Prepare to be surprised. I would be surprised if Fox even brings up trade, but if they do, Trump's answer will be better than Jeb's. Just watch. I've got my popcorn ready. If Fox keeps it fair, your boy Jeb will be smoked tonight. If Jeb gets smoked, I still have three others that I like If Trump wins the nomination, he will beat Hillary. I'll even put money on it if that time comes. As of right now he get's smoked by Hillary. But, like I said, maybe we are watching the greatest political con job of all time. He could moderate his positions and become a flaming liberal and his supporters would still support him. Let's see if he can continue his masterful political ju jitsu.
GG Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I heard him the other morning on Morning Joe, and they were asking him about his previous support for Single Payer Healthcare. And he said something very interesting, which I am sure will be brought up tonight. Which was, that now he isn't for Single Payer because he doesn't think it would work here. But, the interesting part (which I knew he'd now change his position on Single payer) is that he would propose providing healthcare for the poorest 20-25% for free. SOmehow create a system to where he'd negotiate deals with the hospitals to provide free health insurance for 20-25% at the bottom of the economic totem pole. Interesting idea. I wonder if he thought of a name for it? I'll throw in a suggestion - Medicare/Medicaid. Has a familiar ring to it. The more The Donald speaks, it's clear that his supporters are clueless, no matter the reasons they use to justify their support.
Azalin Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 The more The Donald speaks, it's clear that his supporters are clueless, no matter the reasons they use to justify their support. In all fairness, can't that be said of a majority of voters anyway?
Magox Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) I read this about Ted Cruz today. Pretty interesting. Columbia and Princeton were both large debate squads with competitive reputations. But Cruz's status was legendary. He and his partner, David Panton, dominated the scene and ended up in more final rounds than any other team in the country their senior year. Cruz and I were friendly, but I have no doubt he looms much larger in my memory than I do in his. (His campaign did not make him available for an interview for this piece.) He was Michael Jordan in a game where I mostly sat on the bench. snip Ted Cruz was a king in Parliamentary Debate Land. And standing out in that crowd was not easy. Debate attracted swaths of wunderkinds who shared a geeky, cocky confidence; and many of them came from a world of private high schools and rigorous speech teams. Nevertheless, says Raj Vinnakota—a Princeton debater who knew Cruz and who is now the CEO of the SEED Foundation in Washington, D.C.—when you had to face Cruz in debate, "you walked in assuming you would lose." At Princeton, according to Vinnakota and Scott Angstreich—a regulatory and appellate lawyer in Washington—debate practice was taken seriously, and Cruz was an excellent mentor, providing feedback and helping to strengthen younger members of the team. "In that environment," says Vinnakota, who was two years younger than Cruz, "he was cool, spectacular, a god." He was excellent at connecting with a large audience (think: machine-gun bacon). Dae Levine—a former Columbia debater in Cruz's year who is now a communications strategist living in Australia and who has twice been the chair of Democrats Abroad—thinks of it as a kind of bewitching political narcissism: "It's not visual. It's not: Look at me. It's: Listen to me. No, believe me. No, follow me." Indeed, emotion—not just intelligence—was very much in Cruz's skillset. Angstreich (who is Jewish) recalls a debate that he was arguing involving the Holocaust. Before Angstreich got up to speak, Cruz leaned over to him and whispered, "Be outraged!" snip It's also worth pointing out—with Cruz facing long odds in the GOP primaries, and with other candidates at tonight's debate currently commanding a lot more attention—that Cruz's eloquence proved to be a great equalizer for him when his back was against the wall. "I've experienced and witnessed when Ted has pulled out debates purely at the force of his rhetoric," Vinnakota says, remembering one debate in particular that he would ultimately win. The other team, Vinnakota recalls, had "crushed Ted's argument." By the time Cruz arrived onstage to speak a final time, the case was "dead on arrival." "But Ted gave one of the most impassioned, flourished speeches. His focused anger and the power of his rhetoric just won over the crowd. If you were flowing the argument"—charting the debate—"he didn't say anything. You have to be impressed by it. He is a gifted, gifted speaker." Cruz's extraordinary intelligence was very much his calling card—on and off the debate stage. At one tournament, I recall a dozen or so of us being splayed out across twin beds, heads resting against white plaster walls, drinking bottled beer. Young men (who constituted most of that world) with loosened ties and wrinkled chinos sat rapt: Cruz, even then wearing boots-and-a-suit in that awkward way of all Texas politicians, was holding court on Kant's categorical imperative—his moral absolutism apparently already fully formed. Snip Ultimately, giddiness and Niblock prevailed. Levine and Cruz were co-vice-presidents. It is, to the best of our collective knowledge, the last election Cruz ever lost. "I think he's spent his whole life trying to make sure he doesn't lose another election," says Levine. Niblock agrees. "Every moment of his public life has been carefully calculated to bring him to this," he says. "And if Senator Cruz has decided he wants to be president, he has a plan." He has a plan: Everyone I interviewed for this article is solid on this point. We debaters understand how he thinks—how he sees a multitude of situations and consequences unfolding in his mind's eye. He's a politician: It is all stage time now. And starting tonight, a lot will depend on just how well he debates. Apparently the dude is as intelligent as they come. This must come to the horrific revelation to Bird Dog Edited August 6, 2015 by Magox
birdog1960 Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 I read this about Ted Cruz today. Pretty interesting. Apparently the dude is as intelligent as they come. This must come to the horrific revelation to Bird Dog not at all. he was obviously smart enough to realize that he'd never have made it this far as a dem. the flair for the dramatic ("be outraged") will serve him well in this forum. just not well enough to become president.
Dorkington Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 The Dems seem to be forego in this formality and simply anointing their candidate who "deserves" to be their standard bearer because she's entitled to it. FYI, Democratic debate season starts in October, I believe.
IDBillzFan Posted August 6, 2015 Posted August 6, 2015 FYI, Democratic debate season starts in October, I believe. I wonder if they'll let anybody in who isn't old and white.
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