Whaley admits what we've suspected - Bills in QB Purgatory

[YoloinOhio]

I think that you are right my timeline is off. Maybe we should hire Grigson as he is able to identify franchise QBs.

he is turrible #luckdeservesbetter

[eball]

Scouting prospective college QB's is not an exact science, and many, many teams with highly paid scouts / evaluators fail all the time. However, there are some brilliant offensive football minds in the NFL, and those men can actually see the difference between the players who will become starting QB's in the NFL and those who won't. This franchise has been beset by ineptitude for years, and years by bad player evaluation, and in some areas they still appear to be.

 

I believe Bill Polian is one of those men who can see that QB talent, and right now Doug Whaley & co is looking like not. Like I posted earlier, that someone in the Bills FO stated that EJ had the stature of a big man, and yet doesn't throw like one. Where was that critique when they were evaluating him?

 

Why would you say that? He fell into Jim Kelly and Peyton Manning! Kerry Collins was adequate at best in Polian's only other attempt at landing a QB. He's just like everyone else in that business. QB is largely a crap shoot unless it's an "easy" call. Aaron Rodgers is the best QB on the planet and he lasted to the 2nd round and sat for three seasons!

 

Enough with this "they needed a czar" BS. Pegula thought he needed a guy because he didn't want to make any mistakes -- then he got in, saw how well the organization was running, and realized he didn't need it.

[thebandit27]

 

Why would you say that? He fell into Jim Kelly and Peyton Manning! Kerry Collins was adequate at best in Polian's only other attempt at landing a QB. He's just like everyone else in that business. QB is largely a crap shoot unless it's an "easy" call. Aaron Rodgers is the best QB on the planet and he lasted to the 2nd round and sat for three seasons!

 

Enough with this "they needed a czar" BS. Pegula thought he needed a guy because he didn't want to make any mistakes -- then he got in, saw how well the organization was running, and realized he didn't need it.

 

Just as a matter of house cleaning: Rodgers was selected 24th overall in the 2005 draft (right after Oakland traded up in front of Green Bay to draft...Fabian Washington).

[eball]

 

Just as a matter of house cleaning: Rodgers was selected 24th overall in the 2005 draft (right after Oakland traded up in front of Green Bay to draft...Fabian Washington).

 

Whoops, thanks. Bottom quarter of first round. Point still stands.

[thewildrabbit]

 

Why would you say that? He fell into Jim Kelly and Peyton Manning! Kerry Collins was adequate at best in Polian's only other attempt at landing a QB. He's just like everyone else in that business. QB is largely a crap shoot unless it's an "easy" call. Aaron Rodgers is the best QB on the planet and he lasted to the 2nd round and sat for three seasons!

 

Enough with this "they needed a czar" BS. Pegula thought he needed a guy because he didn't want to make any mistakes -- then he got in, saw how well the organization was running, and realized he didn't need it.

Rodgers was drafted 24th in the first round.

 

If the Org is running so well then why is the GM making excuses about the QB situation? You can get off your platform that we don't need no czar BS when clearly it might just help to have a Polian, Ron Wolf, Ernie Accorsi type.

 

Seriously, how on earth would it possibly hurt having a senior football adviser to help a young GM?

[YoloinOhio]

Whaley's point was that having a good team and potentially drafting in the 2nd half of the first makes it harder to get the slam dunk QBs in the draft and is a bigger challenge for he and the scouts to identify a guy, should they need to take one, at that point or later in the draft. That part of the draft is indeed QB purgatory if you need one, because the can't miss guys almost always go at the very top. You have to do a lot more homework to draft a guy at 20 who is a potential franchise guy than you do at 2. It is typically less of a chance he turns out to be great the lower he is drafted. He didn't say it wouldn't or couldn't be done. He said they just need to scout well. And as I said, I think it is absolutely possible in 2016.

 

I didn't hear him make excuses for anything. He was talking about next year's draft. I'm not sure where the excuses narrative came in. He never made any excuses for the current QB situation. He was pretty realistic and matter of fact, yet positive.

Edited August 7, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[Solomon Grundy]

Why would you say that? He fell into Jim Kelly and Peyton Manning! Kerry Collins was adequate at best in Polian's only other attempt at landing a QB. He's just like everyone else in that business. QB is largely a crap shoot unless it's an "easy" call. Aaron Rodgers is the best QB on the planet and he lasted to the 2nd round and sat for three seasons!

 

Enough with this "they needed a czar" BS. Pegula thought he needed a guy because he didn't want to make any mistakes -- then he got in, saw how well the organization was running, and realized he didn't need it.

Are you telling me a 1st rd draft pick sat 3 NFL seasons before he even played? That's blasphemy!!

[eball]

Rodgers was drafted 24th in the first round.

 

If the Org is running so well then why is the GM making excuses about the QB situation? You can get off your platform that we don't need no czar BS when clearly it might just help to have a Polian, Ron Wolf, Ernie Accorsi type.

 

Seriously, how on earth would it possibly hurt having a senior football adviser to help a young GM?

 

Whaley may be in his 40s but he's not "young" to the NFL. Let the man do his job (which, aside from finding that franchise QB that is so easy to do, he has done very well).

[ALF]

Drafting a QB is risky

 

The San Diego Chargers needed a new quarterback after having scored the fewest touchdowns in the league in the previous season. To obtain the second draft pick, the team traded its third overall pick, a future first round pick, a second round pick, and three-time Pro Bowler Eric Metcalf to the Arizona Cardinals, guaranteeing the Chargers the right to draft whichever of the two quarterbacks Indianapolis did not take first. Manning was drafted first by the Colts and Leaf second by the Chargers,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Leaf

the Redskins acquired the pick by giving the Rams four high-value draft picks over three years: their first-round picks in 2012 (No.6 overall), 2013 (No.22 overall), and 2014 (No.2 overall), as well as their second-round pick (No.39 overall) in 2012.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Griffin_III (the jury is still out)

JaMarcus Russell , 1st pick

Trading up for a QB in the 2016 draft will be very expensive with so many teams going for a good QB. That's why extra scouting is so critical this season.

Edited August 7, 2015 by ALF

[thewildrabbit]

 

Whaley may be in his 40s but he's not "young" to the NFL. Let the man do his job (which, aside from finding that franchise QB that is so easy to do, he has done very well).

I agree to a point, as I have a somewhat different opinion. As I see it he has done very well with the defensive side, and not so well with the offensive side.

 

Whaley took over in the 2013 off season, and tried to replace an average OG with complete garbage in Colin Brown, Doug Legursky. That with a rookie QB starting

 

Then last off season tried to correct the issues with the line, and drafted a RT with a #2 pick that was so bad he couldn't get on the field on one of the worst lines in the league. The 7th rounder started but was one of the worst players in the league at his position. Erik Pears at RG, really? Last years line was clearly the weakest area of the team, and this year he addressed it with a maybe at LG, and a rookie at RG.

 

It really remains to be seen if any of the players drafted last season will step on that right side. It also remains to be seen if the third round rookie at RG will step up to become a decent starter. Then the biggest issue is still the lack of the franchise QB which is what this entire thread is all about.

 

There are no questions like this with the defensive side! I still don't see where it would hurt anything to get some NFL experienced help in the offensive player evaluations.

Whaley's point was that having a good team and potentially drafting in the 2nd half of the first makes it harder to get the slam dunk QBs in the draft and is a bigger challenge for he and the scouts to identify a guy, should they need to take one, at that point or later in the draft. That part of the draft is indeed QB purgatory if you need one, because the can't miss guys almost always go at the very top. You have to do a lot more homework to draft a guy at 20 who is a potential franchise guy than you do at 2. It is typically less of a chance he turns out to be great the lower he is drafted. He didn't say it wouldn't or couldn't be done. He said they just need to scout well. And as I said, I think it is absolutely possible in 2016.

 

I didn't hear him make excuses for anything. He was talking about next year's draft. I'm not sure where the excuses narrative came in. He never made any excuses for the current QB situation. He was pretty realistic and matter of fact, yet positive.

Yea, tell that to Washington for the three #1's for RG3. I think any team drafting the #1 or #2 overall would have to do just as much if not more homework on a QB. Because when they fail with that pick it really sets the franchise back for years.

 

Ask the Raiders about JaMarcus Russell or the Chargers about Ryan Leaf- the Browns about Tim Couch- the Texans about David Carr- The Colts about Jeff George. Ya think Bill Polian would still be going into the HoF this year had he drafted Ryan Leaf?

 

NFN, but Whaley and his staff already had a bite of the first round QB apple in EJ, and judging by this article I'd have to say he feels they didn't find that franchise QB just yet.

 

 

A quote from the article:

"And until you get that [franchise quarterback], what is the best way to win?" Whaley said Wednesday on WGR 550. "And it's running the ball, playing good defense and protecting the ball. So what we're saying is, 'Let's get as much talent around the guy, and all he has to do is make the right decision. He doesn't have to put the team on his back and throw it 50 times a day.'

 

Yet that is basically what the team was asking of EJ against the Chargers in week three of last year with 40 passes vs 22 rushes. Then they did it again against the Texans the following game with 44 passes vs 23 rushes. The last coaching staff was asking EJ to put the team on his back, and when he struggled they benched him for Kyle Orton. Then they asked Orton to carry the team.

 

Then, is the current FO critique of EJ based on what they saw from EJ in the games that got him benched?

Edited August 7, 2015 by FeartheLosing

[Solomon Grundy]

I agree to a point, as I have a somewhat different opinion. As I see it he has done very well with the defensive side, and not so well with the offensive side.

 

Whaley took over in the 2013 off season, and tried to replace an average OG with complete garbage in Colin Brown, Doug Legursky. That with a rookie QB starting

 

Then last off season tried to correct the issues with the line, and drafted a RT with a #2 pick that was so bad he couldn't get on the field on one of the worst lines in the league. The 7th rounder started but was one of the worst players in the league at his position. Erik Pears at RG, really? Last years line was clearly the weakest area of the team, and this year he addressed it with a maybe at LG, and a rookie at RG.

 

It really remains to be seen if any of the players drafted last season will step on that right side. It also remains to be seen if the third round rookie at RG will step up to become a decent starter. Then the biggest issue is still the lack of the franchise QB which is what this entire thread is all about.

 

There are no questions like this with the defensive side! I still don't see where it would hurt anything to get some NFL experienced help in the offensive player evaluations.

 

Yea, tell that to Washington for the three #1's for RG3. I think any team drafting the #1 or #2 overall would have to do just as much if not more homework on a QB. Because when they fail with that pick it really sets the franchise back for years.

 

Ask the Raiders about JaMarcus Russell or the Chargers about Ryan Leaf- the Browns about Tim Couch- the Texans about David Carr- The Colts about Jeff George. Ya think Bill Polian would still be going into the HoF this year had he drafted Ryan Leaf?

 

NFN, but Whaley and his staff already had a bite of the first round QB apple in EJ, and judging by this article I'd have to say he feels they didn't find that franchise QB just yet.

 

 

A quote from the article:

"And until you get that [franchise quarterback], what is the best way to win?" Whaley said Wednesday on WGR 550. "And it's running the ball, playing good defense and protecting the ball. So what we're saying is, 'Let's get as much talent around the guy, and all he has to do is make the right decision. He doesn't have to put the team on his back and throw it 50 times a day.'[/size]

 

Yet that is basically what the team was asking of EJ against the Chargers in week three of last year with 40 passes vs 22 rushes. Then they did it again against the Texans the following game with 44 passes vs 23 rushes. The last coaching staff was asking EJ to put the team on his back, and when he struggled they benched him for Kyle Orton. Then they asked Orton to carry the team.

 

Then, is the current FO critique of EJ based on what they saw from EJ in the games that got him benched?

Those are telling stats. Almost 2:1 pass/run. Is this the proper way to develop a "young" QB?? Brent Axe made a statement in an article about how Marrone's ego drove him to bench EJ in order to show the FO who was in control of the football team. I'm beginning to wonder if Marrone had an "Axe" to grind with Whaley? If you look into many of the moves of Marrone, from not playing Mike Williams/ Kraig Urbik, drastically changing the play calling and his early dispute with Robert Woods/Jerry Hughes, if there is any validity in Brent's statement. Marrone had to know he was in a win-win situation with the opt out clause.

[dave mcbride]

 

Yet that is basically what the team was asking of EJ against the Chargers in week three of last year with 40 passes vs 22 rushes. Then they did it again against the Texans the following game with 44 passes vs 23 rushes. The last coaching staff was asking EJ to put the team on his back, and when he struggled they benched him for Kyle Orton. Then they asked Orton to carry the team.

 

Then, is the current FO critique of EJ based on what they saw from EJ in the games that got him benched?

The Bills were down 20-3 in that Chargers game midway through the 3rd quarter. That's why they mostly passed. All teams do that when they're down big.

 

In the Houston game, the stats are deceiving too: the final 5 plays of the first half were all passing plays because the bills were trying to score rather than sit on the ball (they had less than a minute to work with and started in their own end). They were down for nearly the entirety of the second half too (after the int return by watt). 24 of the bills' final 30 offensive plays (4/5) were passing plays, and they had a desperation drive at the end of the game too that was basically all passing. Prior to the end of the 1st half, it was 20 passes to 18 runs.

Edited August 7, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Lurker]

I didn't hear him make excuses for anything. He was talking about next year's draft. I'm not sure where the excuses narrative came in. He never made any excuses for the current QB situation. He was pretty realistic and matter of fact, yet positive.

You expect FTL and other "usual suspects" to understand the context of his remarks and comprehend them correctly?? Whoa...

 

Better just to tune out them out and deny them the attention they seek...

[YoloinOhio]

I agree to a point, as I have a somewhat different opinion. As I see it he has done very well with the defensive side, and not so well with the offensive side.

 

Whaley took over in the 2013 off season, and tried to replace an average OG with complete garbage in Colin Brown, Doug Legursky. That with a rookie QB starting

 

Then last off season tried to correct the issues with the line, and drafted a RT with a #2 pick that was so bad he couldn't get on the field on one of the worst lines in the league. The 7th rounder started but was one of the worst players in the league at his position. Erik Pears at RG, really? Last years line was clearly the weakest area of the team, and this year he addressed it with a maybe at LG, and a rookie at RG.

 

It really remains to be seen if any of the players drafted last season will step on that right side. It also remains to be seen if the third round rookie at RG will step up to become a decent starter. Then the biggest issue is still the lack of the franchise QB which is what this entire thread is all about.

 

There are no questions like this with the defensive side! I still don't see where it would hurt anything to get some NFL experienced help in the offensive player evaluations.

 

Yea, tell that to Washington for the three #1's for RG3. I think any team drafting the #1 or #2 overall would have to do just as much if not more homework on a QB. Because when they fail with that pick it really sets the franchise back for years.

 

Ask the Raiders about JaMarcus Russell or the Chargers about Ryan Leaf- the Browns about Tim Couch- the Texans about David Carr- The Colts about Jeff George. Ya think Bill Polian would still be going into the HoF this year had he drafted Ryan Leaf?

 

NFN, but Whaley and his staff already had a bite of the first round QB apple in EJ, and judging by this article I'd have to say he feels they didn't find that franchise QB just yet.

 

 

A quote from the article:

"And until you get that [franchise quarterback], what is the best way to win?" Whaley said Wednesday on WGR 550. "And it's running the ball, playing good defense and protecting the ball. So what we're saying is, 'Let's get as much talent around the guy, and all he has to do is make the right decision. He doesn't have to put the team on his back and throw it 50 times a day.'

 

Yet that is basically what the team was asking of EJ against the Chargers in week three of last year with 40 passes vs 22 rushes. Then they did it again against the Texans the following game with 44 passes vs 23 rushes. The last coaching staff was asking EJ to put the team on his back, and when he struggled they benched him for Kyle Orton. Then they asked Orton to carry the team.

 

Then, is the current FO critique of EJ based on what they saw from EJ in the games that got him benched?

obviously there is a great deal of homework put into any draft pick. The QB position is incredibly nuanced, because it's the hardest position to project success from college to pro, and the amount of development necessary is critical in this measure. If you need a guy who has the potential to be a franchise QB and compete for the job immediately, you have a different job than when you have the ability to take a "project" to sit behind a QB already entrenched in the starter role. The Bills are in QB purgatory, as he said, because they may need the first one, but the chances of drafting a guy like that go down the further down the draft board you pick. So you need to do a ton more scouting homework to try to nail that pick. It's just the reality of scouting. The later the draft pick, the more impressive it is to find a starter. I don't think that's an outlandish statement. I don't really get the RG3 comparison, as he has made the playoffs and been the starter since he was drafted. He's not considered a top NFL QB by any means, but that's never guaranteed of any draft pick.

 

There are examples of success stories and failures at QB all over the board in every round. The Bills aren't saying they are doomed to repeat not being able to find a franchise QB, if they end up needing to start over. They are saying their job is harder because of where they expect to draft. The good news is there are a number of prospects who I believe will be considered future franchise QBs who could compete for a starting job right away.

 

Unlike the last time they were in this position, this upcoming draft appears to have some solid 1st round talent at QB.

Edited August 7, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[BillsVet]

I'm surprised Whaley didn't just echo Dick Jauron and just say "it's hard to find a good QB in the NFL."

[QCity]

I'm surprised Whaley didn't just echo Dick Jauron and just say "it's hard to find a good QB in the NFL."

 

Hah, I can picture him saying that.

 

Maybe at the end of camp he'll bring in Jordan Palmer or Matt Leinart again. I always love listening to the reasons why that's a good idea and that nothing is wrong and everything is completely fine.

[John from Riverside]

Lets not forget that Polian also drafted QB Kerry Collins for the expansion Carolina Panthers with the #5 pick in the first round. Polian was hired away from Carolina after two short years, after the man built a team from scratch that went 12-4 in its second year of existence. Collins eventually did manage to get to a SB with the NY Giants. At what pick in the 1st round? When was the last time we were that low?

 

Polian was also essential in signing / bringing in QB Jim Kelly for Buffalo, and making him the highest paid QB in the NFL at that time.

 

Once gain....at what pick did we draft Jim Kelly

 

He was also instrumental in drafting Bruce Smith, and negotiating his first contract. Then later on when the Broncos offered two first rounders for Bruce ole Bill kept him in Buffalo when others wanted the picks.

 

Which has exactly what to do with QB?

 

Polian also knew the difference between Peyton Manning, and Ryan Leaf when the Chargers where foolish enough to make him the very next pick in the draft. There is a reason why the man is being inducted into the pro football hall of fame this year!

 

Ill give you that one. But once again.....at what picks where these QBs being drafted?

 

Oh BTW, exactly how long did it take for Polian to find a QB good enough to take all four teams he was GM / president of to the playoffs? I'll tell ya, two years with all four teams!

 

At what draft pick did he make those draft choices.

 

 

Some want to keep deflecting the fact that here we are in year three of the current GM's reign, and even he acknowledges the team is still devoid of the single key player needed for a SB run.

 

Do you see the common theme here?

[thebandit27]

 

Hah, I can picture him saying that.

 

Maybe at the end of camp he'll bring in Jordan Palmer or Matt Leinart again. I always love listening to the reasons why that's a good idea and that nothing is wrong and everything is completely fine.

 

Who said that?

 

I remember a lot of folks saying that it was a good idea to bring in someone else, since the QB picture wasn't shaping up well.

 

Let's remember that he did, in fact, bring in a guy that ended up going 7-5 as a starter...was that a good idea?

[SoulMan]

Even if we are....don't say it !!

 

What a confidence builder !

[LeGOATski]

Even if we are....don't say it !!

 

What a confidence builder !

I think they're past confidence-building...

 

Even so, he was talking about draft position.

Edited August 7, 2015 by LeGOATski