46 Defense Implemented?

[Matt in KC]

Hmm. Nickel is a package. So is dime. By definition they are subbed and different schemes. So, in essence you're not playing 46 at all in those packages. The real trick is the the "hybridization" of schemes. Something that looks like 46, but is actually nickel, is the idea here. Something that is nickel, but gets shifted to 46, or, "hike"..."oh noes, it IS 46!" ,(with say, Reggie Robey suddenly lining up as the farthest left OLB and stunting, or running around the TE.), is also the idea here.

 

It comes down to how much we can do with who we have on the field. But, more importantly, it's about how much the other team thinks we can/can't do. IF we can run 46 with Reggie Robey? That's a B word.

I would be shocked if we blitzed Reggie Robbie this year!

 

Talk about surprising the offense!

Edited August 3, 2015 by Matt in KC

[TakeYouToTasker]

Hmm. Nickel is a package. So is dime. By definition they are subbed and different schemes. So, in essence you're not playing 46 at all in those packages. The real trick is the the "hybridization" of schemes. Something that looks like 46, but is actually nickel, is the idea here. Something that is nickel, but gets shifted to 46, or, "hike"..."oh noes, it IS 46!" ,(with say, Reggie Robey suddenly lining up as the farthest left OLB and stunting, or running around the TE.), is also the idea here.

 

It comes down to how much we can do with who we have on the field. But, more importantly, it's about how much the other team thinks we can/can't do. IF we can run 46 with Reggie Robey? That's a B word.

Hell yeah that would be a wrinkle. Can you imagine the stunned silence on the offensive sidelines if we line up a !@#$ing zombie wearing a 1 bar face mask circa 1987 in the 7 technique, and after eating the brain of the opposing QB he picked up the ball and punted it through the back of the offense's end zone?

 

Good times.

Edited August 3, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

Hmm. Nickel is a package. So is dime. By definition they are subbed and different schemes. So, in essence you're not playing 46 at all in those packages. The real trick is the the "hybridization" of schemes. Something that looks like 46, but is actually nickel, is the idea here. Something that is nickel, but gets shifted to 46, or, "hike"..."oh noes, it IS 46!" ,(with say, Reggie Robey suddenly lining up as the farthest left OLB and stunting, or running around the TE.), is also the idea here.

 

It comes down to how much we can do with who we have on the field. But, more importantly, it's about how much the other team thinks we can/can't do. IF we can run 46 with Reggie Robey? That's a B word.

Hmm, that does give me am idea.

 

Are you familiar with the Big Nickel, where you put in 3 safeties instead of an extra CB? I could see taking Duke, who is a quintessential box safety and subbing out a LB like Lawson. It looks like our nickel, but then you bring in Duke as the WLB and A. Williams as SS. Similar effect as the normal 46, but you have some coverage flexibility.

[YattaOkasan]

Most exciting thread in a month. Thank god. This defense was good last year when we just sat back and didn't blitz. If we can get away with 8 in the box, I don't know if theres much to stop us.

 

Side note with all the confusion/chaos I would imagine the % of turnovers converted to TD's is higher. Did the '85 bears score a lot of TD's off of turnovers?

[Kelly the Dog]

Hmm, that does give me am idea.

 

Are you familiar with the Big Nickel, where you put in 3 safeties instead of an extra CB? I could see taking Duke, who is a quintessential box safety and subbing out a LB like Lawson. It looks like our nickel, but then you bring in Duke as the WLB and A. Williams as SS. Similar effect as the normal 46, but you have some coverage flexibility.

Rex also plays a lot of Big Nickel. Having a versatile guy like Graham helps with that too.

 

Nickell Robey is really suited to this defense though. He's primed for a big year c

[Chandler#81]

'85 Bears had Jim McMahon. Juss sayin'..

[boyst]

Too late.

 

 

thats only 1,405 words, wannabe.

[OCinBuffalo]

I would be shocked if we blitzed Reggie Robbie this year!

 

Talk about surprising the offense!

Hell yeah that would be a wrinkle. Can you imagine the stunned silence on the offensive sidelines if we line up a !@#$ing zombie wearing a 1 bar face mask circa 1987 in the 7 technique, and after eating the brain of the opposing QB he picked up the ball and punted it through the back of the offense's end zone?

 

Good times.

Nobody in the world can do more with a typo than TSW. In fact, TSW is recognized around the rest of the NFL as one of the most typo-capable boards.

[BuffaloMatt]

First thing: here's a basic diagram and explanation.

 

There's a few things wrong, or not-Bills specific in that explanation. First of all, the NT lines up directly over center, not shaded to the center's left as in the diagram. In fact, the alingment is wrong in that what the diagram has as 3T and 5T are actually both going to line up to the outside of each G. (The only reason I'm keeping this wrong thing in this post is to explain where the "conventional 46 wisdom", shown here, is wrong WRT the Bills).

 

Here's a better diagram with the right alignment, but no positions, that comes from here.

 

 

And finally, a much better explanation from here:

 

 

 

Bills Modified Explanation:

1. You run 3 down lineman like you would in a normal 3-4, except neither of the outside guys are DEs and have those responsibilities. They are all DTs in effect. This is the run-stopping base. As you can see, the inside gaps are all clogged up, before the ball is snapped. In our case, Dareus or Kyle Williams is the middle guy, with the other being outside, and, either Bryant, Charles or Alex Carrington(remember him? Yeah, now this makes sense) on the other outside. You could also, using a shift, bring Mario in to play the other DT spot. Also, this is "cauldron of chaos": these 3 guy are going to dictate where the blitz/stunts/hell comes from in the passing defense. We have the elite DTs for this, and, no team in the league is going to win 1v1 much against them. Taking away the doubles from Kyle and Marcell is frightening. It all but requries teams to use their FB/H-Back, which, is one less receiver. We may see 3 WR sets against this, but 4 is suicide.

 

2. Notice how there's 2 LBs to the left? That "stuntable" out of the basic formation. It sets up "who is going to rush the passer, and who is going to cover the TE"? Are both guys rushing? Do you dare leave one OLB unblocked, and send the TE on a rout, hoping the FB or HB can get to the block? How about if the inside of the 2 is Mario? This formation causes trouble in just lining up, and that's BEFORE you know the bodies represented by the dots. We have Manny Lawson, Mario, Bradham and a wide assortment of other players, any of whom can be shifted into this position before the snap, and either get to the QB, knock the TE off his release, or get off a block and make a play in the run. Again, you need all 11 to be elite to make this work.

 

3. Notice how the MLB is shifted over to the left? That's who will get the TE, if he goes out, and both OLBs rush. He's also responsible for the inside if they run against 2 blitzing OLBs. And, he's responsible for whatever comes through on a sweep/down blocking zone scheme. Yeah: you better have a very talented MLB, because he may have to cover a TE, shrug off a tackle, and deal with a pulling guard. We have Preston Brown. Enough said.

 

4. The right side DE needs to be a stud, because he not only has to play the run, he HAS to be able to apply immediate pass pressure every down, by himself. Jerry Hughes fits. If the opposition can run/roll to the right, then the whole thing is exposed. Hughes has already shown he can do this, with his quickness and his pass rush ability. AND, this is where the teamwork comes into play: the LT is on an island. He can't get any help from the LG. The LG has his own 1v1 matchup to worry about. This entire alignment removes O line double teams from the field.

 

5. See the SS? He comes down and plays like a LB in this. Aaron Williams is a hitter, and as we have seen, is just as tough as a LB, but with decent cover skills. Against a 2 TE set, he covers the TE on his side, or blitzes, with Jerry Hughes dropping back. The 3 DTs can dictate a lot of this, because again, none of them can be double teamed.

 

6. It's 6 D vs 5 O before you even start. The O is now relying on FBs and HBs to take on elite pass rushers/DEs and big/quick/fast LBs, for help. But, those guys are starting behind the QB, and are at a disadvantage to get to a spot before the D, who are all on the line do. Depending on who is rushing, and who falls back into coverage, the whole point of the 46 is to get 2 guys blocking 1 D, and nobody blocking 1 or more other D players == mass confusion and chaos.

 

7. You absolutely positively MUST have shutdown corners at both spots. This should be obvious. (And, also why we drafted Darby)

 

8. The FS? Well, he's a saftey. If we F up, he's gotta be ready, because he's the only thing between a stop and TD. However, if the CBs are elite, he can help with covering RBs out of the backfield, 3rd WRs, and TEs.

 

9. As you can see, 46 requires 11 talented men. Each one relies on the other positions being elite, so that they can be elite. It's like the concept of a suspension bridge. If everything works, you get great results. One part breaks down, or is inferior, and the whole thing can go to hell..

 

Now, back to the "faults" defined in playing the 46 against "today's" offenses.

1. We have the players who can do the jobs listed above, and go out and cover a 3rd WR if necessary. Getting tired? Please. We also have the depth to sub in guys all game. In our case, this is backwards: when we line up in a 46, against a 3 WR set? Rack that up as a sack before the ball is snapped. Now you have no TE, and 1 OT against 2 OLBs. (Remember #3) We stunt both of those OLB inside, have the left, outside DT hit the OT and push him away, and now you've 2 guys, in space, with a free run to the QB/RB, and the G can only block one. Running a 3 WR set against THIS team, playing this formation? All it takes is Nigel Bradham making 1 clean hit: and your franchise QB/RB is out of the game.

 

2. Which brings us to the Patriots standard formation: 2 TEs and an H back, unbalanced line, etc. The 46, played with these Bills, counters that nicely. IF we are physical, every one of their guys gets hit on the snap, which disrupts their timing. And, again, you are forcing everybody into a 1v1 situation from the snap. It only takes one mistake from the entire 8 guys on O, and they've got real problems: too many bodies, their own included, and nowhere to go. Rather than laying back and reacting the Pats offense, we would be attacking it on every play. A statue like Brady can't move around in pocket, that is all 1v1 matchups, somebody will get him if he does, so you are taking away a great strength of his.

 

3. Beyond just the Pats, this makes the read-option useless. You stand around in the backfield/move laterally against this, for even a second, and you're asking to be killed. Our guys are firing through every gap, and hitting everybody at the LOS, with the added advantage of starting at the LOS or very near it in the SSs case. Therefore, there's nothing to read but "Oh schit, here they come again". It's also a wildcat killer in that respect.

 

 

Ultimately, as I said: this defense requires extremely good personnel to run. If we have the horses, it maximizes each of their abilities. It's difficult to say whether the scheme is repsonsible for so many Bears being in the HOF, or, whether their invidudal talent, allowed the scheme to be run in the first place, and that's why. This scheme allows, and requires, each player to play to his elite potential. IF they do?

 

Look the F out.

Thanks. That was great. Enjoyed the lesson.

[hondo in seattle]

The 46 defense, even in its prime, had some problems with the West Coast offense and other quick hitting passing schemes.

There aren't a lot of guys in coverage. The aim of the 46 is to disrupt the QB. But if the QB gets rid of the ball quickly, there can be big gains.

 

In a modern offense, there might be 4 WRs running routes. So you'll need 4 good CBs. And in today's game you also have TEs link Gronk who also present coverage problems. You'll need someone who can handle big fast TEs 1-on-1.

 

The dink and dunk that NE now uses might be effective against the 46.

[Max997]

46 is basically ten guys near the line of scrimmage and to bring a lot of pressure...the key obviously is to get pressure bc the corners will more often then not be left in single coverage

 

The problem with the 46 defense now vs 85 is defending a spread offense vs the standard two back two receiver sets most if not all teams ran back in 85

Edited August 3, 2015 by Max997

[YoloinOhio]

Most exciting thread in a month. Thank god. This defense was good last year when we just sat back and didn't blitz. If we can get away with 8 in the box, I don't know if theres much to stop us.

 

Side note with all the confusion/chaos I would imagine the % of turnovers converted to TD's is higher. Did the '85 bears score a lot of TD's off of turnovers?

i agree - it is exciting and I learned a lot. Thanks OC.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

Most exciting thread in a month. Thank god. This defense was good last year when we just sat back and didn't blitz. If we can get away with 8 in the box, I don't know if theres much to stop us.

 

Side note with all the confusion/chaos I would imagine the % of turnovers converted to TD's is higher. Did the '85 bears score a lot of TD's off of turnovers?

I know. It's nice to talk about, you know, football rather than the latest rumor about whether Brady's jock strap is deflated.

[OCinBuffalo]

Are you familiar with the Big Nickel, where you put in 3 safeties instead of an extra CB? I could see taking Duke, who is a quintessential box safety and subbing out a LB like Lawson. It looks like our nickel, but then you bring in Duke as the WLB and A. Williams as SS. Similar effect as the normal 46, but you have some coverage flexibility.

I like it. The key is: WTF are we actually doing? With that personnel, you can make an argument for either, so, we aren't tipping off the O to anything. And, if they audible to run, it's not like you're in big trouble. That is the main objective: be unreadable.

 

However, if we can run put the standard 46 with the standard guys on the field, against a 3wr set, and kick asses against that, then that generates a lot of fear/late nights/time kills for opposing coaches. That's the other thing: there are only so many hours in a day. The more the other side has to prepare for, the more they are likely to gloss over/miss. A 46-capable D puts the fear of God into those coaches, and now? Everything else loses time.

 

Constrast that with preparing for Dave Wannstedt. Film work was done by Wednesday, and opposing coaches got to work on their golf games.

Most exciting thread in a month. Thank god. This defense was good last year when we just sat back and didn't blitz. If we can get away with 8 in the box, I don't know if theres much to stop us.

 

Side note with all the confusion/chaos I would imagine the % of turnovers converted to TD's is higher. Did the '85 bears score a lot of TD's off of turnovers?

You're welcome.

 

How about this: The 85 Bears scored more than the opposing offense 3 games in a row. They beat Dallas 44-0 in their own stadium. And in response to Chandler's:

 

'85 Bears had Jim McMahon. Juss sayin'..

They did that to Dallas without McMahon. In fact, here's the story: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cs-111885bearsdallas-story.html

 

And some key lines from that story?

 

They did it without quarterback Jim McMahon, but not without their defense.

 

It was the worst defeat in the team`s 25-year history and the first time the Cowboys had been shut outsince 1970.

 

The rout was so complete that Ditka was able to rest starting quarterback Steve Fuller for the last 10:24 and play rookie Mike Tomczak.

 

The Bears` defense blasted open a tight game late in the first quarter by scoring the first two touchdowns and setting up the third. They knocked out Dallas quarterback Danny White to even up thequarterback count. Then they intercepted two of Gary Hogeboom`s first threepasses and turned the fair-weather Dallas fans against their beloved team.

 

When the Cowboys got the ball back, the Bears confused Hogeboom by shiftingfrom a 4-3 alignment into a 3-4 just before the snap. With Wilson blitzing,Hogeboom unloaded into the teeth of a zone and Richardson made an easyinterception and a 36-yard runback for a touchdown.

 

The Cowboys tried to get back into the game on the next play and Hogeboom`s bomb for Tony Hill was intercepted by cornerback Leslie Frazier,who returned it 33 yards to the 48.

 

Like I said, if we can run the 46, for real? We're going to be laughing about these QB posts by week 6.

 

EDIT: And, in that article, I'm not sure how you can be fair-weather and have a beloved team, at the same time.

Edited August 3, 2015 by OCinBuffalo

[Matt in KC]

Thanks for the write-up.

 

I'm very excited to see our defense attack, but also a bit wary. I hope we don't get carried away always throwing "hay-makers." Schwartz did such a great job with the D just rushing 4 he made me a believer that it wasn't all about scheme-driven chaos. I think this defense is mature enough to master several looks, at least with our starters all in.

[reddogblitz]

46 is basically ten guys near the line of scrimmage and to bring a lot of pressure...

I have heard Mikr Singletary describe it as sending more guys at the QB than they have the ability to block.

[boyst]

im thinking about the safeties... Based on the links it sounds like they use the SS as a LB but I don't know if AW or Grahan are really big enough - I wonder about Duke there but he's not lining up with the 1s. Also I'm assuming Dareus is the nose, or is that Stefan Charles with Dareus and KW on either side?

 

 

First thing: here's a basic diagram and explanation.

 

There's a few things wrong, or not-Bills specific in that explanation. First of all, the NT lines up directly over center, not shaded to the center's left as in the diagram. In fact, the alingment is wrong in that what the diagram has as 3T and 5T are actually both going to line up to the outside of each G. (The only reason I'm keeping this wrong thing in this post is to explain where the "conventional 46 wisdom", shown here, is wrong WRT the Bills).

 

Here's a better diagram with the right alignment, but no positions, that comes from here.

 

 

And finally, a much better explanation from here:

 

 

 

Bills Modified Explanation:

1. You run 3 down lineman like you would in a normal 3-4, except neither of the outside guys are DEs and have those responsibilities. They are all DTs in effect. This is the run-stopping base. As you can see, the inside gaps are all clogged up, before the ball is snapped. In our case, Dareus or Kyle Williams is the middle guy, with the other being outside, and, either Bryant, Charles or Alex Carrington(remember him? Yeah, now this makes sense) on the other outside. You could also, using a shift, bring Mario in to play the other DT spot. Also, this is "cauldron of chaos": these 3 guy are going to dictate where the blitz/stunts/hell comes from in the passing defense. We have the elite DTs for this, and, no team in the league is going to win 1v1 much against them. Taking away the doubles from Kyle and Marcell is frightening. It all but requries teams to use their FB/H-Back, which, is one less receiver. We may see 3 WR sets against this, but 4 is suicide.

 

Manny Lawson. MANNY LAWSON. He is going to be on fire this year. Put him with Carrington or Mario Williams on that side and Lawson has freedom to go where he wants and he can, and has proven, able to cover Gronk. See, it's confusing. We stick these labels on players and think they can only play that. Most players are not position players anymore as much as they are extreme athletes; and those athletes that are elite are freakishly talented - Mario Williams is case in point. Mario can line up at LB, DE or DT and be effective. I believe the same can be said about Carrington at DE. I think he is fast enough and skilled enough to be stood up outside and paired next to someone like Lawson or Powell

 

It's out of the box thinking, but I want to look at these types of thing since this thread is already fairly intricate and very detailed.

 

But, as I pointed out raising the question to Yolo, its who we can sub in and replace that will matter most. Charles and Bryant are major factors. Our interior DL will be lining up man up, take on guys head to head a lot more and they will benefit from getting subbed.

 

2. Notice how there's 2 LBs to the left? That "stuntable" out of the basic formation. It sets up "who is going to rush the passer, and who is going to cover the TE"? Are both guys rushing? Do you dare leave one OLB unblocked, and send the TE on a rout, hoping the FB or HB can get to the block? How about if the inside of the 2 is Mario? This formation causes trouble in just lining up, and that's BEFORE you know the bodies represented by the dots. We have Manny Lawson, Mario, Bradham and a wide assortment of other players, any of whom can be shifted into this position before the snap, and either get to the QB, knock the TE off his release, or get off a block and make a play in the run. Again, you need all 11 to be elite to make this work.

 

Remember that last year we also put Dareus outside successfully several times. Imagine Hughes and Lawson on one side, KWiliams inside then preshift we move Dareus out to the 6 or 7 open up that lane and dare them to run thru the 3-5. Imagine just outside of Dareus is now Mario backed up off the line, standing up... he won't cover, will he? No one remembered he can cover decently.

 

The lynch pin is Bradham. I would love for Spikes to be back. Because running those two inside at LB in that set up. But, who we really need is 2011 Bryan Scott.

 

3. Notice how the MLB is shifted over to the left? That's who will get the TE, if he goes out, and both OLBs rush. He's also responsible for the inside if they run against 2 blitzing OLBs. And, he's responsible for whatever comes through on a sweep/down blocking zone scheme. Yeah: you better have a very talented MLB, because he may have to cover a TE, shrug off a tackle, and deal with a pulling guard. We have Preston Brown. Enough said.

 

This is where I struggle in this position. I worry about Brown. This is a lot to place on him and a lot of snap, split second processes he must account for - this position in the 46 is the make or break.

 

4. The right side DE needs to be a stud, because he not only has to play the run, he HAS to be able to apply immediate pass pressure every down, by himself. Jerry Hughes fits. If the opposition can run/roll to the right, then the whole thing is exposed. Hughes has already shown he can do this, with his quickness and his pass rush ability. AND, this is where the teamwork comes into play: the LT is on an island. He can't get any help from the LG. The LG has his own 1v1 matchup to worry about. This entire alignment removes O line double teams from the field.

 

Remember back with Pettine? He would line up 5 on the line, and a blitzing LB then rush only 3? Crazy dude would drop Dareus to cover the freaking flat! Yeah, That's what I love about this, because we can do just that. This time we run a 46 and rush 5 or 6. Next time we rush 2, keep our ends at home on the outside flats and cover every inch of the field. Next time we bring the safety up, run a cover 3 in the 46 with the under guys playing man up.

 

5. See the SS? He comes down and plays like a LB in this. Aaron Williams is a hitter, and as we have seen, is just as tough as a LB, but with decent cover skills. Against a 2 TE set, he covers the TE on his side, or blitzes, with Jerry Hughes dropping back. The 3 DTs can dictate a lot of this, because again, none of them can be double teamed.

I do not know if he can last all season playing with the boom he will need. Rambo will likely make the team for this reason - a sure hitter. Gulp* Donte Whitner would be nice to have teamed with Scott in rotation at the SS.

 

6. It's 6 D vs 5 O before you even start. The O is now relying on FBs and HBs to take on elite pass rushers/DEs and big/quick/fast LBs, for help. But, those guys are starting behind the QB, and are at a disadvantage to get to a spot before the D, who are all on the line do. Depending on who is rushing, and who falls back into coverage, the whole point of the 46 is to get 2 guys blocking 1 D, and nobody blocking 1 or more other D players == mass confusion and chaos.

Who says we are going to rush them that's the best part? I forget the game, maybe it was Cleveland two years ago, we literally rushed no one, and everyone basically just stayed their place in a cover 0. All 5 guys in the box just sort of went to read and react - circa 2005. The QB had no idea what to do, scrambled out of the pocket for no reason and threw to the ground.

This is where I am looking forward to next week vs. Carolina. Cam can't read defenses to save his life. I promise he will have 3 bombs where you think, wow, neat. Maybe one of the WR's will actually jump 20' and catch one, too. But, the bottom line is, it will be big next week to see if our DB's can man up against some young talented WR's with an irresponsible gunslinging QB who reminds me of a stronger more mobile Bledsoe.

 

7. You absolutely positively MUST have shutdown corners at both spots. This should be obvious. (And, also why we drafted Darby)

Crotchery won't be starting much longer in Carolina, but Funchess, Benjamin and Ginn will be very interestingly matched up against our D. Add my favorite TE in the league right now, probably most underappreciated - Olsen and we have some dudes to cover next week. I don't give two craps about Carolina running. They can pretend Tolbert is a big hitting back and Stewart is legit but neither are tremendously worrisome. Their OL won't last but Newton will throw the ball up any chance he gets if he can't run it. The biggest test of our preseason is next week.

 

I promise Newton throws 2 INT's.

 

 

8. The FS? Well, he's a saftey. If we F up, he's gotta be ready, because he's the only thing between a stop and TD. However, if the CBs are elite, he can help with covering RBs out of the backfield, 3rd WRs, and TEs.

Made me miss Byrd. A lot. Dude was like Allstate, insurance for everything and always took care of ya.

 

Though, this is personal preference, I want the FS no where near my run game. I want him eyes on QB the whole time he can, then eyes on the ball. No one deeper on the field then the FS. Now, you will appreciate it others may not. It's a thing of beauty when a FS can recognize the play action against those who can't. A bad bite from a FS is just hilarious.

 

9. As you can see, 46 requires 11 talented men. Each one relies on the other positions being elite, so that they can be elite. It's like the concept of a suspension bridge. If everything works, you get great results. One part breaks down, or is inferior, and the whole thing can go to hell.

Well, expert, you didn't talk much about the interior DL. Want to give that a whirl?

 

Now, back to the "faults" defined in playing the 46 against "today's" offenses.

1. We have the players who can do the jobs listed above, and go out and cover a 3rd WR if necessary. Getting tired? Please. We also have the depth to sub in guys all game. In our case, this is backwards: when we line up in a 46, against a 3 WR set? Rack that up as a sack before the ball is snapped. Now you have no TE, and 1 OT against 2 OLBs. (Remember #3) We stunt both of those OLB inside, have the left, outside DT hit the OT and push him away, and now you've 2 guys, in space, with a free run to the QB/RB, and the G can only block one. Running a 3 WR set against THIS team, playing this formation? All it takes is Nigel Bradham making 1 clean hit: and your franchise QB/RB is out of the game.

you're going to get everyone creaming their pants a little early. the 46 is likely not to be a regular thing.

 

 

2. Which brings us to the Patriots standard formation: 2 TEs and an H back, unbalanced line, etc. The 46, played with these Bills, counters that nicely. IF we are physical, every one of their guys gets hit on the snap, which disrupts their timing. And, again, you are forcing everybody into a 1v1 situation from the snap. It only takes one mistake from the entire 8 guys on O, and they've got real problems: too many bodies, their own included, and nowhere to go. Rather than laying back and reacting the Pats offense, we would be attacking it on every play. A statue like Brady can't move around in pocket, that is all 1v1 matchups, somebody will get him if he does, so you are taking away a great strength of his.

We can easily shift in to a 46 with a regular defense. even a nickel formation would be possibly switched to a 46. Slide the extra SS - probably Graham - up outside the hip of our OLB. Quick and strong enough to blitz or not.

 

3. Beyond just the Pats, this makes the read-option useless. You stand around in the backfield/move laterally against this, for even a second, and you're asking to be killed. Our guys are firing through every gap, and hitting everybody at the LOS, with the added advantage of starting at the LOS or very near it in the SSs case. Therefore, there's nothing to read but "Oh schit, here they come again". It's also a wildcat killer in that respect.

read options? party like its 2012!

 

Ultimately, as I said: this defense requires extremely good personnel to run. If we have the horses, it maximizes each of their abilities. It's difficult to say whether the scheme is repsonsible for so many Bears being in the HOF, or, whether their invidudal talent, allowed the scheme to be run in the first place, and that's why. This scheme allows, and requires, each player to play to his elite potential. IF they do?

 

Look the F out.

Edited August 3, 2015 by jboyst62

[boyst]

...Unless it's no huddle we get to sub...

People forget this. If the offense can make a substitution, by rule the defense must be able to make a substitution.

 

Which the Patriots really perfected in masking by switching players so quickly that opposing teams do not realize players have been switched.

 

That, and they make the line heavy on one side or another.

I have heard Mikr Singletary describe it as sending more guys at the QB than they have the ability to block.

i want your pup. adorable.

[Saxum]

I know. It's nice to talk about, you know, football rather than the latest rumor about whether Brady's jock strap is deflated.

How do you deflate silk?

[OCinBuffalo]

Manny Lawson. MANNY LAWSON. He is going to be on fire this year. Put him with Carrington or Mario Williams on that side and Lawson has freedom to go where he wants and he can, and has proven, able to cover Gronk. See, it's confusing. We stick these labels on players and think they can only play that. Most players are not position players anymore as much as they are extreme athletes; and those athletes that are elite are freakishly talented - Mario Williams is case in point. Mario can line up at LB, DE or DT and be effective. I believe the same can be said about Carrington at DE. I think he is fast enough and skilled enough to be stood up outside and paired next to someone like Lawson or Powell

 

It's out of the box thinking, but I want to look at these types of thing since this thread is already fairly intricate and very detailed.

 

But, as I pointed out raising the question to Yolo, its who we can sub in and replace that will matter most. Charles and Bryant are major factors. Our interior DL will be lining up man up, take on guys head to head a lot more and they will benefit from getting subbed.

 

Since we are doing colors now,

 

I said Manny Lawson in the next paragraph, dammit! How the F should I know about which interior lineman does what? Or who is playing where? The best part is, like you said, I don't think the other teams are gonna know either.

 

Yeah, the depth is huge. Subbing in, and keeping things 1v1? Both concepts working together, I believe defeats the "getting tired" point.

 

Out of the box, or in the box. Standard 3-4 man, 46, 4-3 zone? IF we can do all these with the same personnel, but also, no matter who is subbed in, that's downright scary.

 

Remember that last year we also put Dareus outside successfully several times. Imagine Hughes and Lawson on one side, KWiliams inside then preshift we move Dareus out to the 6 or 7 open up that lane and dare them to run thru the 3-5. Imagine just outside of Dareus is now Mario backed up off the line, standing up... he won't cover, will he? No one remembered he can cover decently.

 

The lynch pin is Bradham. I would love for Spikes to be back. Because running those two inside at LB in that set up. But, who we really need is 2011 Bryan Scott.

 

This is where I struggle in this position. I worry about Brown. This is a lot to place on him and a lot of snap, split second processes he must account for - this position in the 46 is the make or break.

 

Sure to all of this, espeically Bradham. Like we've both said, it takes all 11, and there are a few potential stress points. Bradham I can see. Brown not as much. Especially not after I saw him running step for step against a WR and make an INT 25 yards down the field last year.

 

But, that's sorta the beauty of this, you can present what they think is a weakness...then shift, and make it into a strength.

Remember back with Pettine? He would line up 5 on the line, and a blitzing LB then rush only 3? Crazy dude would drop Dareus to cover the freaking flat! Yeah, That's what I love about this, because we can do just that. This time we run a 46 and rush 5 or 6. Next time we rush 2, keep our ends at home on the outside flats and cover every inch of the field. Next time we bring the safety up, run a cover 3 in the 46 with the under guys playing man up.

I think the major difference with Pettine was that we couldn't stop the run...largely due to not having 2 run-stopping LBs, and, many of his plays were all or nothing, which meant nothing if they ran it. With the 46, and this unit running it, I don't see the big, frustrating, up the gut runs Pettine's D would give up at least once a game on 3rd and long.

I do not know if he can last all season playing with the boom he will need. Rambo will likely make the team for this reason - a sure hitter. Gulp* Donte Whitner would be nice to have teamed with Scott in rotation at the SS.

I don't know either. But, we do have S depth it seems. This is another potential stress point. But, if Williams keeps on his upwards trajectory from last year, we may have a Gary Fencik/Doug Plank hitter in him that nobody knew about, until the 46 gave him his shot.

 

Who says we are going to rush them that's the best part? I forget the game, maybe it was Cleveland two years ago, we literally rushed no one, and everyone basically just stayed their place in a cover 0. All 5 guys in the box just sort of went to read and react - circa 2005. The QB had no idea what to do, scrambled out of the pocket for no reason and threw to the ground.

This is where I am looking forward to next week vs. Carolina. Cam can't read defenses to save his life. I promise he will have 3 bombs where you think, wow, neat. Maybe one of the WR's will actually jump 20' and catch one, too. But, the bottom line is, it will be big next week to see if our DB's can man up against some young talented WR's with an irresponsible gunslinging QB who reminds me of a stronger more mobile Bledsoe.

I seriously doubt we see 46 next week, and I will crap if we do. 46 against Cam Newton is like calculus for a Kardashian. No way they get it, but, sometimes the answer actually is 2. Or 3.5.

 

Though, this is personal preference, I want the FS no where near my run game. I want him eyes on QB the whole time he can, then eyes on the ball. No one deeper on the field then the FS. Now, you will appreciate it others may not. It's a thing of beauty when a FS can recognize the play action against those who can't. A bad bite from a FS is just hilarious.

I see 46 as minimizing the impact of losing Byrd. All you really need back there is a guy like Corey Graham. He can cover, he can hit. He's smart/not gonna bite.

 

Well, expert, you didn't talk much about the interior DL. Want to give that a whirl?

No. As I said, this thread serves 2 purposes: to get posters talking about the chances of the 46 actually being a real thing, and, to do something useful with our time, instead of yet another Qb discussion.

 

By all means, take it.

 

you're going to get everyone creaming their pants a little early. the 46 is likely not to be a regular thing.

I'll take premature cream in pants over more boring crap from mouths every time. What if we really can play 46, with this team, in 2015? I don't know, it may be more likely than we think. Much depends on how the stress points we've talked about above fare. And injuries(wood being knocked right now).

 

We can easily shift in to a 46 with a regular defense. even a nickel formation would be possibly switched to a 46. Slide the extra SS - probably Graham - up outside the hip of our OLB. Quick and strong enough to blitz or not.

Yep. That's why I think drafting Darby and Graham to FS are all indicators pointing towards 46 at least some of the time. These pieces seem to fit.

 

read options? party like its 2012!

Whatever. You know what I mean. Running QBs and little turd Rbs coming out of the backfield require delays, reads, etc. You stand around/move laterally against the 46 and that's an injury waiting to happen.

 

Like others have said, the West Coast is the best way to beat it. But, you leave your QB open for a free run on just one play and any of our front 8 hits him? Dink and dunk is awfully hard to do from the hospital. That's the thing about the 46: it creates unblocked, free runs at the QB much more than most other Ds == get the meat wagon.

 

Same thing for WRs. We set up in what looks to be a 46, but is actually a zone...the WR runs the checkdown rout, and gets destroyed by a not-blitzing LB when the ball gets there.

Edited August 3, 2015 by OCinBuffalo