46 Defense Implemented?

[YoloinOhio]

So I'm gathering that this is just a package that they will use when the Matchup dictates, not the base D?

[boyst]

i knew you would be able to chime in. When you think about the scheme ... How would you use our personnel?

thanks!

personal matters to attend to this afternoon. I will address all of this tonight.

 

I have many ways I can answer this. Would you like to know how I would use our personnel based on projection of lineup? Because the bigger factor is who isn't starting but can contributr

[YoloinOhio]

personal matters to attend to this afternoon. I will address all of this tonight.

 

I have many ways I can answer this. Would you like to know how I would use our personnel based on projection of lineup? Because the bigger factor is who isn't starting but can contributr

im thinking about the safeties... Based on the links it sounds like they use the SS as a LB but I don't know if AW or Grahan are really big enough - I wonder about Duke there but he's not lining up with the 1s. Also I'm assuming Dareus is the nose, or is that Stefan Charles with Dareus and KW on either side?

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

personal matters to attend to this afternoon. I will address all of this tonight.

 

I have many ways I can answer this. Would you like to know how I would use our personnel based on projection of lineup? Because the bigger factor is who isn't starting but can contributr

Maybe both? Because of its weakness against speak attacks and no huddle, the 46 would almost certainly be a subpackage, or at least build in adaptations for 5 and 6 DBs right?

 

It would be interesting to see how it fits with our base personnel and then ask who might get rolled in. I could see maybe rolling Carrington to the 3 or 5 technique while having Hughes act as SLB.

[OCinBuffalo]

Can you summarize what it does? If run effectively...

 

Also - do any other NFL teams run this?

First thing: here's a basic diagram and explanation.

 

There's a few things wrong, or not-Bills specific in that explanation. First of all, the NT lines up directly over center, not shaded to the center's left as in the diagram. In fact, the alingment is wrong in that what the diagram has as 3T and 5T are actually both going to line up to the outside of each G. (The only reason I'm keeping this wrong thing in this post is to explain where the "conventional 46 wisdom", shown here, is wrong WRT the Bills).

 

Here's a better diagram with the right alignment, but no positions, that comes from here.

 

 

And finally, a much better explanation from here:

 

 

 

Bills Modified Explanation:

1. You run 3 down lineman like you would in a normal 3-4, except neither of the outside guys are DEs and have those responsibilities. They are all DTs in effect. This is the run-stopping base. As you can see, the inside gaps are all clogged up, before the ball is snapped. In our case, Dareus or Kyle Williams is the middle guy, with the other being outside, and, either Bryant, Charles or Alex Carrington(remember him? Yeah, now this makes sense) on the other outside. You could also, using a shift, bring Mario in to play the other DT spot. Also, this is "cauldron of chaos": these 3 guy are going to dictate where the blitz/stunts/hell comes from in the passing defense. We have the elite DTs for this, and, no team in the league is going to win 1v1 much against them. Taking away the doubles from Kyle and Marcell is frightening. It all but requries teams to use their FB/H-Back, which, is one less receiver. We may see 3 WR sets against this, but 4 is suicide.

 

2. Notice how there's 2 LBs to the left? That "stuntable" out of the basic formation. It sets up "who is going to rush the passer, and who is going to cover the TE"? Are both guys rushing? Do you dare leave one OLB unblocked, and send the TE on a rout, hoping the FB or HB can get to the block? How about if the inside of the 2 is Mario? This formation causes trouble in just lining up, and that's BEFORE you know the bodies represented by the dots. We have Manny Lawson, Mario, Bradham and a wide assortment of other players, any of whom can be shifted into this position before the snap, and either get to the QB, knock the TE off his release, or get off a block and make a play in the run. Again, you need all 11 to be elite to make this work.

 

3. Notice how the MLB is shifted over to the left? That's who will get the TE, if he goes out, and both OLBs rush. He's also responsible for the inside if they run against 2 blitzing OLBs. And, he's responsible for whatever comes through on a sweep/down blocking zone scheme. Yeah: you better have a very talented MLB, because he may have to cover a TE, shrug off a tackle, and deal with a pulling guard. We have Preston Brown. Enough said.

 

4. The right side DE needs to be a stud, because he not only has to play the run, he HAS to be able to apply immediate pass pressure every down, by himself. Jerry Hughes fits. If the opposition can run/roll to the right, then the whole thing is exposed. Hughes has already shown he can do this, with his quickness and his pass rush ability. AND, this is where the teamwork comes into play: the LT is on an island. He can't get any help from the LG. The LG has his own 1v1 matchup to worry about. This entire alignment removes O line double teams from the field.

 

5. See the SS? He comes down and plays like a LB in this. Aaron Williams is a hitter, and as we have seen, is just as tough as a LB, but with decent cover skills. Against a 2 TE set, he covers the TE on his side, or blitzes, with Jerry Hughes dropping back. The 3 DTs can dictate a lot of this, because again, none of them can be double teamed.

 

6. It's 6 D vs 5 O before you even start. The O is now relying on FBs and HBs to take on elite pass rushers/DEs and big/quick/fast LBs, for help. But, those guys are starting behind the QB, and are at a disadvantage to get to a spot before the D, who are all on the line do. Depending on who is rushing, and who falls back into coverage, the whole point of the 46 is to get 2 guys blocking 1 D, and nobody blocking 1 or more other D players == mass confusion and chaos.

 

7. You absolutely positively MUST have shutdown corners at both spots. This should be obvious. (And, also why we drafted Darby)

 

8. The FS? Well, he's a saftey. If we F up, he's gotta be ready, because he's the only thing between a stop and TD. However, if the CBs are elite, he can help with covering RBs out of the backfield, 3rd WRs, and TEs.

 

9. As you can see, 46 requires 11 talented men. Each one relies on the other positions being elite, so that they can be elite. It's like the concept of a suspension bridge. If everything works, you get great results. One part breaks down, or is inferior, and the whole thing can go to hell..

 

Now, back to the "faults" defined in playing the 46 against "today's" offenses.

1. We have the players who can do the jobs listed above, and go out and cover a 3rd WR if necessary. Getting tired? Please. We also have the depth to sub in guys all game. In our case, this is backwards: when we line up in a 46, against a 3 WR set? Rack that up as a sack before the ball is snapped. Now you have no TE, and 1 OT against 2 OLBs. (Remember #3) We stunt both of those OLB inside, have the left, outside DT hit the OT and push him away, and now you've 2 guys, in space, with a free run to the QB/RB, and the G can only block one. Running a 3 WR set against THIS team, playing this formation? All it takes is Nigel Bradham making 1 clean hit: and your franchise QB/RB is out of the game.

 

2. Which brings us to the Patriots standard formation: 2 TEs and an H back, unbalanced line, etc. The 46, played with these Bills, counters that nicely. IF we are physical, every one of their guys gets hit on the snap, which disrupts their timing. And, again, you are forcing everybody into a 1v1 situation from the snap. It only takes one mistake from the entire 8 guys on O, and they've got real problems: too many bodies, their own included, and nowhere to go. Rather than laying back and reacting the Pats offense, we would be attacking it on every play. A statue like Brady can't move around in pocket, that is all 1v1 matchups, somebody will get him if he does, so you are taking away a great strength of his.

 

3. Beyond just the Pats, this makes the read-option useless. You stand around in the backfield/move laterally against this, for even a second, and you're asking to be killed. Our guys are firing through every gap, and hitting everybody at the LOS, with the added advantage of starting at the LOS or very near it in the SSs case. Therefore, there's nothing to read but "Oh schit, here they come again". It's also a wildcat killer in that respect.

 

 

Ultimately, as I said: this defense requires extremely good personnel to run. If we have the horses, it maximizes each of their abilities. It's difficult to say whether the scheme is repsonsible for so many Bears being in the HOF, or, whether their invidudal talent, allowed the scheme to be run in the first place, and that's why. This scheme allows, and requires, each player to play to his elite potential. IF they do?

 

Look the F out.

Edited August 3, 2015 by OCinBuffalo

[Kelly the Dog]

The Jets always had the 46 in their defensive playbook with Rex and used it on occasion. You really have to have the personnel to use it effectively and the Bills likely do. But he has always done this before.

[OCinBuffalo]

 

 

It is guaranteed that this is not what he is doing.....

Then as usual, you'd be wrong. I am trying to solicit other posters ideas on the Defense. Partially because the notion of playing the 46, for real, is extremely exciting, and, partially because I'm sick of the QB thing.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

Re:OC IN BUFFALO

 

Do you think that Rex would use a modified version? As much as I love Dareus and Mario, Dareus really isn't a zero technique player and Mario isn't a 3 technique player. Would they maybe shade Dareus at the 1 and Mario at the five?

[The Wiz]

The Jets always had the 46 in their defensive playbook with Rex and used it on occasion. You really have to have the personnel to use it effectively and the Bills likely do. But he has always done this before.

Basically what I was thinking when I saw the diagram and then thought of when we played the jets.

[TakeYouToTasker]

It's been run, but not in it's pure form as Buddy did when he invented it. (The Patriots* have run it in situational packages, and other teams have disguised it, and shifted into it).

 

Your personnel would have to be generationally good to run it today with the speed and skill on the modern player, and rule set that protects the receivers from aggressive defending. it's very encouraging that Rex thinks this D can run it to the point that he's talking about installing it, rather than just installing bits and pieces as a surprise package under the radar.

 

As far as personnel packages go, I could see this best run with Carrington on the Nose, with Kyle and Dareus playing the 2 and 3's. I can also envision a personnel package that has Hughes, Mario, and Lawson on the field at the same time with Lawson being isolated on the weak side in a 9, with Mario and Hughes in 5 and 7's respectively on the strong side. How in the world could you cope with that sort of pressure coming over/through your right tackle?

Edited August 3, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker

[OCinBuffalo]

I know it. If anyone wants I'll do a 10,000 word write up.

Too late.

Re:OC IN BUFFALO

 

Do you think that Rex would use a modified version? As much as I love Dareus and Mario, Dareus really isn't a zero technique player and Mario isn't a 3 technique player. Would they maybe shade Dareus at the 1 and Mario at the five?

I think showing it alone is scary to a QB pre-snap, especially if you've been effective with it on film, this season. In that respect, sure they could shift into what you're saying just before the snap, but, that's already after the QB has audibled from pass, to run, on 3rd and 5...which is what we want.

 

Doing it is the key. IF you can do it, it changes whole game plans, and puts a good slot WRs, pass-first TEs, and 3rd down scat backs/pass catchers on the bench.

 

It's hard to be hurt by Julian Edelman if he never sees the field.

Your personel would have to be generationally good to run it today with the speed and skill on the modern player, and rule set that protects the receivers from aggressive defending.

That's the question at hand: are we generationally that good?

 

Rex would, I assume, know that. And, if we are spending any time practicing the 46? Perhaps, he thinks they are. Or, as I said in the OP, he's sending a message to the other teams, especially in our division: "Hey we might be good enough to run the 46 as a base D, you better do something about that".

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

It's been run, but not in it's pure form as Buddy did when he invented it. (The Patriots* have run it in situational packages, and other teams have disguised it, and shifted into it).

 

Your personel would have to be generationally good to run it today with the speed and skill on the modern player, and rule set that protects the receivers from aggressive defending.

Well, I think no one is able to run it in its pure form 100% of the time anymore. The second the offense hits the 46 with a 5 receiver formation...

 

But as OC pointed out, we might have the personnel to use it effectively in a lot of situations (2 TE 2 WR 1 RB, 2 WR 1 TE 2 RB, maybe 3 WR and the Balco formations like Roman uses)

[Coach Tuesday]

My limited experience with the 46 is watching Greggo run it with scrubs (Raion Hill, anyone?), it was just brutal watching the Bills slam a bunch of defenders into the LOS at the snap, without generating any pressure whatsoever, and have receivers running wide open all over the field. I'm a novice, but based on my limited understanding I agree with the notion that you need 11 stud players to run it effectively. Meaning, at best you can run it in September, before injuries start to take their toll. In today's league, with modern free agency and roster rules, no one has the depth to run the 46 consistently from September through January.

[Agent 91]

im thinking about the safeties... Based on the links it sounds like they use the SS as a LB but I don't know if AW or Grahan are really big enough - I wonder about Duke there but he's not lining up with the 1s. Also I'm assuming Dareus is the nose, or is that Stefan Charles with Dareus and KW on either side?

I think there were allusions to Charles being thr nose during mini camp. That may have just been board banter though

[OCinBuffalo]

Well, I think no one is able to run it in its pure form 100% of the time anymore. The second the offense hits the 46 with a 5 receiver formation...

 

But as OC pointed out, we might have the personnel to use it effectively in a lot of situations (2 TE 2 WR 1 RB, 2 WR 1 TE 2 RB, maybe 3 WR and the Balco formations like Roman uses)

The 85 bears ran nickel and dime. 5 wides is asking a hell of a lot from your O line against our D line, especially if we rush 4 and drop 7.

 

That comes down to CB depth. That's why its never a bad idea to draft a CB. Against spread, your 4th CB has to be nearly as good as your 1 and 2.

 

Unless it's no huddle we get to sub, so, it all depends on who the O puts on the field. But, no huddle, against a properly run 46 == 3 and out or worse. IF you don't have the athletes on D, who can run all day, you can't run a 46 anyway. So it's kinda mutually exclusive.

 

The bears had far more INTs than sacks in 85: because the QB was throwing, trying to throw, the ball before he got killed.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

 

 

That's the question at hand: are we generationally that good?

 

Rex would, I assume, know that. And, if we are spending any time practicing the 46? Perhaps, he thinks they are. Or, as I said in the OP, he's sending a message to the other teams, especially in our division: "Hey we might be good enough to run the 46 as a base D, you better do something about that".

Even if we aren't, I can see Rex trying to be. Having his dad hold a legacy for a defense in the conversation of GOAT has to be a part of Rex.

 

If Rex just cared about winning, he could have gone to the Falcons or hung around for a year to find a team with an offense in place that just needed a boost on defense to win a title. Instead he came here, where he has the pieces to maybe, maybe, build a historic defense.

[Agent 91]

Re:OC IN BUFFALO

 

Do you think that Rex would use a modified version? As much as I love Dareus and Mario, Dareus really isn't a zero technique player and Mario isn't a 3 technique player. Would they maybe shade Dareus at the 1 and Mario at the five?

Could mario stand up again like he did under pettine Edited August 3, 2015 by Agent 91

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

The 85 bears ran nickel and dime. 5 wides is asking a hell of a lot from your O line against our D line, especially if we rush 4 and drop 7.

 

That comes down to CB depth. That's why its never a bad idea to draft a CB. Against spread, your 4th CB has to be nearly as good as your 1 and 2.

 

Unless it's no huddle we get to sub, so, it all depends on who the O puts on the field. But, no huddle, against a properly run 46 == 3 and out or worse. IF you don't have the athletes on D, who can run all day, you can't run a 46 anyway. So it's kinda mutually exclusive.

 

The bears had far more INTs than sacks in 85: because the QB was throwing, trying to throw, the ball before he got killed.

Ok. Who would you sub out for nickel and dime packages if we have a 46 base?

[TakeYouToTasker]

That's the question at hand: are we generationally that good?

 

Rex would, I assume, know that. And, if we are spending any time practicing the 46? Perhaps, he thinks they are. Or, as I said in the OP, he's sending a message to the other teams, especially in our division: "Hey we might be good enough to run the 46 as a base D, you better do something about that".

See my edit in post #30

[OCinBuffalo]

Ok. Who would you sub out for nickel and dime packages if we have a 46 base?

Hmm. Nickel is a package. So is dime. By definition they are subbed and different schemes. So, in essence you're not playing 46 at all in those packages. The real trick is the the "hybridization" of schemes. Something that looks like 46, but is actually nickel, is the idea here. Something that is nickel, but gets shifted to 46, or, "hike"..."oh noes, it IS 46!" ,(with say, Reggie Robey suddenly lining up as the farthest left OLB and stunting, or running around the TE.), is also the idea here.

 

It comes down to how much we can do with who we have on the field. But, more importantly, it's about how much the other team thinks we can/can't do. IF we can run 46 with Reggie Robey? That's a B word.

Edited August 3, 2015 by OCinBuffalo