Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 And there was all kinds of reasons to believe it went on all season.
dave mcbride Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) You are missing my point. I know what you are saying; the issue is that I disagree with their logic pretty strongly (obviously) if they are including prior games as further evidence of transgressions. It's a BS argument and paper thin in terms of the logic. Edited August 10, 2015 by dave mcbride
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 And there was all kinds of reasons to believe it went on all season. How come they never "stole" their balls before that game?
dave mcbride Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) And there was all kinds of reasons to believe it went on all season. Physical evidence of over-deflation in those games? I'd love to see it. Edited August 10, 2015 by dave mcbride
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 you're right - it's one 16th of the MLB season (assuming a standard 32-33 start season for a healthy starting pitcher). Few to none of those games are complete games.
dave mcbride Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 The latest in the Ted Wells saga: http://espn.go.com/n...orney-ted-wells .
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 How come they never "stole" their balls before that game? I really don't know. Maybe they did. First of all, all away games it would have been impossible. The fact that the Ravens guy said it's well known around the league that the Patriots ball boys on the sideline would let air out of the balls with a needle makes me believe that they knew that and didn't want to be caught out in plain site. If I had to guess I would say this was the first time they stole the balls but I don't know. It's very easy to let air out of the balls it's just a matter if someone catches you with the needle or not.
dave mcbride Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Few to none of those games are complete games. Good point, but nonetheless the possibility of a CG is taken away from that pitcher.
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Good point, but nonetheless the possibility of a CG is taken away from that pitcher. True, but it's not the same as a Brady start. Always a complete game.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Physical evidence of over-deflation in those games? I'd love to see it. You have to be an imbecile if you read the texts between Jastremki and McNally, about games that were NOT the Championship game, and believe that they didn't do it several times earlier in the year. Unless you think they were just making that up. Cmon Dave. You don't need physical proof when the two people involved and accused of it are talking about it explicitly after the fact that it happened. Only a moron would believe they didn't do it.
dave mcbride Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) You have to be an imbecile if you read the texts between Jastremki and McNally, about games that were NOT the Championship game, and believe that they didn't do it several times earlier in the year. Unless you think they were just making that up. Cmon Dave. You don't need physical proof when the two people involved and accused of it are talking about it explicitly after the fact that it happened. Only a moron would believe they didn't do it. Yes, you do need -- or rather should need -- physical proof to inflict a penalty. They have none. Why don't you just lean on what you have - deflation in the championship game - and go with that? isn't that good enough? The texts suggest there was a pattern and that helps establish that they did it purposely in that game. What happened in prior games isn't germane because of the absolute lack of physical evidence. But again, the texts are helpful in that they establish a pattern that helped nail them in the championship game. They should therefore be penalized for that one game. Whether they did it in prior games or not is neither here nor there because they don't know. Conversations surrounding prior games are helpful in establishing motive in the game that matters. That's it. I'm not naive about their past behavior, but I'm a believer in relying on physical evidence rather than mere supposition animated by a bias against a division rival. Edited August 10, 2015 by dave mcbride
DC Tom Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 How come they never "stole" their balls before that game? Because they didn't have to. That's a well-covered topic that's never been disputed. You can look it up.
Matt in KC Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 A few points are highlighted below that relate to the current discussion http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/11/nfl-statement-on-deflategate-discipline/ From Troy Vincent’s letter to the Patriots: ... “As you know, we regard violations of competitive rules as significant and deserving of a strong sanction, both to punish the actual violation and to deter misconduct in the future. In this case, the footballs were intentionally deflated in an effort to provide a competitive advantage to Tom Brady after having been certified by the game officials as being in compliance with the playing rules. While we cannot be certain when the activity began, the evidence suggests that January 18th was not the first and only occasion when this occurred, particularly in light of the evidence referring to deflation of footballs going back to before the beginning of the 2014 season. “It is impossible to determine whether this activity had an effect on the outcome of games or what that effect was. There seems little question that the outcome of the AFC Championship Game was not affected. But this has never been a significant factor in assessing discipline. There are many factors which affect the outcome of a game. It is an inherently speculative exercise to try to assign specific weight to any one factor. The key consideration in any case like this is that the playing rules exist for a reason, and all clubs are entitled to expect that the playing rules will be followed by participating teams. Violations that diminish the league’s reputation for integrity and fair play cannot be excused simply because the precise impact on the final score cannot be determined. “Here, there are several factors that merit strong consideration in assessing discipline. The first is the club’s prior record. In 2007 the club and several individuals were sanctioned for videotaping signals of opposing defensive coaches in violation of the Constitution and Bylaws. Under the Integrity of the Game Policy, this prior violation of competitive rules was properly considered in determining the discipline in this case. [Matt: I think that mainly applies to the Patriot's penalty, not TB's]
GaryPinC Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 You are missing my point. I know what you are saying; the issue is that I disagree with their logic pretty strongly (obviously) if they are including prior games as further evidence of transgressions. It's a BS argument and paper thin in terms of the logic. How do you know? You seem to only care about the direct evidence from the championship game but circumstantial evidence can be just as important. If you establish the protocol (texting, etc.) that took place in that championship game then see similar protocols/discussions at earlier games during the season is it BS or not? Testimony from Jastremki and McNally. That's what judge and jury are all about. The thing that bugs me about the NFL side is they really shouldn't need Tommy's actual phone. They have text records from the recipients and he had to pay a phone bill for that number and that should be enough to prove what his role was. Maybe they tried to avoid that level of investigational diligence.
dave mcbride Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 How do you know? You seem to only care about the direct evidence from the championship game but circumstantial evidence can be just as important. If you establish the protocol (texting, etc.) that took place in that championship game then see similar protocols/discussions at earlier games during the season is it BS or not? Testimony from Jastremki and McNally. That's what judge and jury are all about. The thing that bugs me about the NFL side is they really shouldn't need Tommy's actual phone. They have text records from the recipients and he had to pay a phone bill for that number and that should be enough to prove what his role was. Maybe they tried to avoid that level of investigational diligence. They don't have physical evidence from previous games and therefore have zero idea whether the Patriots were playing with balls below 12.5. They may think they did based on texts, but really, they have no idea. But they do have evidence from the championship game. I'm simply saying that expanding the penalty based on physically baseless suppositions about prior games is overkill. The one game should be enough, but because they want to stick it to the Patriots and Brady, they overreached. That is, in my opinion.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 A few points are highlighted below that relate to the current discussion http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/11/nfl-statement-on-deflategate-discipline/ Thanks. People forget about that. It shows clearly why they made that decision. It wasn't one element or piece of evidence. It was the total conspiracy. They don't have physical evidence from previous games and therefore have zero idea whether the Patriots were playing with balls below 12.5. They may think they did based on texts, but really, they have no idea. But they do have evidence from the championship game. I'm simply saying that expanding the penalty based on physically baseless suppositions about prior games is overkill. The one game should be enough, but because they want to stick it to the Patriots and Brady, they overreached. That is, in my opinion.They don't have physical evidence that Aaron Hernandez killed Odin Lloyd. They just know he did it. And convicted him.
dave mcbride Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Thanks. People forget about that. It shows clearly why they made that decision. It wasn't one element or piece of evidence. It was the total conspiracy. They don't have physical evidence that Aaron Hernandez killed Odin Lloyd. They just know he did it. And convicted him. There is really no comparison between the evidence in the Hernandez situation and week 12 of the 2014 regular season. You're above that. The Hernandez case is truly the Godwin's Law of this discussion.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 There is really no comparison between the evidence in the Hernandez situation and week 12 of the 2014 regular season. You're above that. The Hernandez case is truly the Godwin's Law of this discussion.Of the 50-100 small elements of this case they know with the same certainty. Unless both Jastremski And McNally were totally making it all up. They KNOW it. You know it. They could not make it up. It makes zero sense. That combined with ALL of the facts plus all of the other people's actions makes them know. Unequivocally. Physical evidence or not.
Nanker Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 I brought this up this morning but would like anyone who has been defending Brady and thinking he has been treated unfairly to please try to answer this honestly. In baseball it's been a long standing tradition to mess with the baseballs, and pitchers are rarely disciplined for doctoring them. It's considered almost part of the game and competitive advantage and everyone seems to go along with it, except every once in awhile an umpire will call out a pitcher, and if he is caught cheating he is thrown out of the game. No one seems to have much of a problem with this. IF, however, a pitcher was caught stealing the entire box of baseballs before the game out from under the umpires watch, took them to a bathroom (or had someone else do it), and altered all of the balls even slightly (and not up to 15% as Brady did) there is no question in my mind that player would be suspended for multiple games. I don't think it's even a question. Just a matter of how many. No, no, no, no, NO! A thousand times, NO! You've got it all wrong KTFABD. If that happened in baseball they would HAVE to do nothing because it had never happened before, so there is no precident. Therefore, Brady would get off in that sport as well. He's a two sport serial cheater now. Maybe Kraft can demand an apology from the MLB Comissioner as well.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) No, no, no, no, NO! A thousand times, NO! You've got it all wrong KTFABD. If that happened in baseball they would HAVE to do nothing because it had never happened before, so there is no precident. Therefore, Brady would get off in that sport as well. He's a two sport serial cheater now. Maybe Kraft can demand an apology from the MLB Comissioner as well. You're right. That's probably why Billy Cole never got suspended for this infraction in The Last Boy Scout. Edited August 10, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
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