Brady 4 game suspension upheld; Will go to court

[Tuco]

Huge stretch I know.

 

Back when I played pee wee ball (I know ha ha) there were rules to the length and circumference of the balls by age groups.

 

So I assume the 13 lbs not only had to do with the air pressure being more or less but filled out the ball to the correct dimensions it was made for.

 

Having said that I do not know if this is written anywhere in the NFL regarding circumference, but I guarantee whoever makes the ball has the size in mind. So it wouldn't surprise me if that existed somewhere. I would bet that is the reason for the 13 lbs or printed weight.

SECTION 1 DIMENSIONS

The Ball must be a “Wilson,” hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.

The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12½ to 13½ pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case

(natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall

be: long axis, 11 to 11¼ inches; long circumference, 28 to 28½ inches; short circumference, 21 to 21¼ inches; weight, 14 to

15 ounces.

The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be

furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball

attendant just prior to the start of the game.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Tuco

[Kelly the Dog]

I brought this up this morning but would like anyone who has been defending Brady and thinking he has been treated unfairly to please try to answer this honestly.

 

In baseball it's been a long standing tradition to mess with the baseballs, and pitchers are rarely disciplined for doctoring them. It's considered almost part of the game and competitive advantage and everyone seems to go along with it, except every once in awhile an umpire will call out a pitcher, and if he is caught cheating he is thrown out of the game. No one seems to have much of a problem with this.

 

IF, however, a pitcher was caught stealing the entire box of baseballs before the game out from under the umpires watch, took them to a bathroom (or had someone else do it), and altered all of the balls even slightly (and not up to 15% as Brady did) there is no question in my mind that player would be suspended for multiple games. I don't think it's even a question. Just a matter of how many.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Kelly the Dog

[SRQ_BillsFan]

SECTION 1 DIMENSIONS

The Ball must be a Wilson, hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.

The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12½ to 13½ pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case

(natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall

be: long axis, 11 to 11¼ inches; long circumference, 28 to 28½ inches; short circumference, 21 to 21¼ inches; weight, 14 to

15 ounces.

The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be

furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball

attendant just prior to the start of the game.

Thanks! Now I/we know. Sure seems a little vague :-)

 

Seems strict, I'd be afraid to touch it before the game. They should have stuck with the weight at 13 so ther was no variance to open this up. I certainly don't get that the weight was to a quarterbacks choosing when reading that. So I wonder how many refs gave a damn what the QBs wanted?

 

They kind of opened this up by letting them rough up the balls. But is still wouldn't think the quarterback should ever have been able to select a weight based on the way it reads.

[Mr. WEO]

You noticed that the NFL, while changing the rules slightly a couple weeks ago, allowed the QB's and teams less leeway, and not more concerning the PSI. Because the game is supposed to be played by the rules set forth by the people in charge of the rules. That is not to say the NFL is smart, or that they don't do dumb things at times. But no other QBs complain about the balls, and even the guys you and others use as examples of guys who like them a different way have never been caught cheating or altering them.

 

The NFL changes its rules all the time. Look what happened when to the rules of illegal contact by DBs (a rule that changed after a single team complained after a single game). Look what happened to the extra point rule. All I'm saying is that they are in constant evolution. Changing the PSI range a bit broader than it is now would satisfy any QB and provide no real advantage to any one QB. Rodgers alters his balls, I would imagine, all the time. He jsut gets "caught" all the time as well (well, maybe not all the time, given the refs widely variable pregame ball checking methods) and then he complains that the refs let air out of his over inflated balls.

 

I brought this up this morning but would like anyone who has been defending Brady and thinking he has been treated unfairly to please try to answer this honestly.

 

In baseball it's been a long standing tradition to mess with the baseballs, and pitchers are rarely disciplined for doctoring them. It's considered almost part of the game and competitive advantage and everyone seems to go along with it, except every once in awhile an umpire will call out a pitcher, and if he is caught cheating he is thrown out of the game. No one seems to have much of a problem with this.

 

IF, however, a pitcher was caught stealing the entire box of baseballs before the game out from under the umpires watch, took them to a bathroom (or had someone else do it), and altered all of the balls even slightly (and not up to 15% as Brady did) there is no question in my mind that player would be suspended for multiple games. I don't think it's even a question. Just a matter of how many.

 

You keep asking this question. I don't see too many who don't agree that he cheated by ordering the deflation of the balls. Why do you keep going back to this?

 

And your scenario of the doctored baseballs makes no sense--the doctoring by the pitcher goes on while he's pitching. You are arguing about how the deflators went about their business at this point, not that they did it. LEt me ask you this, do you think that that is the only game Brady had them deflate the balls, or has it been going on since 2007, as some here suggest. Because if has been going on that long, why is it that the refs only noticed the "stolen balls" that one time?

Edited August 10, 2015 by Mr. WEO

[Pneumonic]

I brought this up this morning but would like anyone who has been defending Brady and thinking he has been treated unfairly to please try to answer this honestly.

 

In baseball it's been a long standing tradition to mess with the baseballs, and pitchers are rarely disciplined for doctoring them. It's considered almost part of the game and competitive advantage and everyone seems to go along with it, except every once in awhile an umpire will call out a pitcher, and if he is caught cheating he is thrown out of the game. No one seems to have much of a problem with this.

 

IF, however, a pitcher was caught stealing the entire box of baseballs before the game out from under the umpires watch, took them to a bathroom (or had someone else do it), and altered all of the balls even slightly (and not up to 15% as Brady did) there is no question in my mind that player would be suspended for multiple games. I don't think it's even a question. Just a matter of how many.

 

Is there definitive proof (ie not just assumptions) that the box of baseballs were a) stolen and b) doctored?

 

I would also be interested in knowing if, the entity professing that theft and doctoring of said balls transpired, is trustworthy or not.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

The NFL changes its rules all the time. Look what happened when to the rules of illegal contact by DBs (a rule that changed after a single team complained after a single game). Look what happened to the extra point rule. All I'm saying is that they are in constant evolution. Changing the PSI range a bit broader than it is now would satisfy any QB and provide no real advantage to any one QB.

 

 

You keep asking this question. I don't see too many who don't agree that he cheated by ordering the deflation of the balls. Why do you keep going back to this?

 

And your scenario of the doctored baseballs makes no sense--the doctoring by the pitcher goes on while he's pitching. You are arguing about how the deflators went about their business at this point, not that they did it. LEt me ask you this, do you think that that is the only game Brady had them deflate the balls, or has it been going on since 2007, as some here suggest. Because if has been going on that long, why is it that the refs only noticed the "stolen balls" that one time?

First I asked that question for the first time today. It's a totally different question.

 

Second I have no Idea how long they have been doing it. There were several games this year. I imagine this may have been the first time McNally stole all the balls but I'm not sure. The Deflator nickname goes back to before this year. The Ravens guy said it's well known around the league they have let air out on the sidelines. I imagine it's gone on a couple years. I very much doubt 2007. More than a year though. And not every game.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I brought this up this morning but would like anyone who has been defending Brady and thinking he has been treated unfairly to please try to answer this honestly.

 

In baseball it's been a long standing tradition to mess with the baseballs, and pitchers are rarely disciplined for doctoring them. It's considered almost part of the game and competitive advantage and everyone seems to go along with it, except every once in awhile an umpire will call out a pitcher, and if he is caught cheating he is thrown out of the game. No one seems to have much of a problem with this.

 

IF, however, a pitcher was caught stealing the entire box of baseballs before the game out from under the umpires watch, took them to a bathroom (or had someone else do it), and altered all of the balls even slightly (and not up to 15% as Brady did) there is no question in my mind that player would be suspended for multiple games. I don't think it's even a question. Just a matter of how many.

Heck... Even the ump messes them up prior to the game. Ever read how the "mud them up." The mud is dug from a secret location on the east coast.

 

Anway, baseball is kinda different becuase there are so many, the ump is constantly changing for a fresh ball ball that he individually prepped and kept in his control. That is how I under stand it.

 

Brady deflating the ball is more like him having sand paper in his glove or Vaseline. Brady wanting a certain pressure is like corking a bat. It's deemed as cheating.

[dave mcbride]

I brought this up this morning but would like anyone who has been defending Brady and thinking he has been treated unfairly to please try to answer this honestly.

 

In baseball it's been a long standing tradition to mess with the baseballs, and pitchers are rarely disciplined for doctoring them. It's considered almost part of the game and competitive advantage and everyone seems to go along with it, except every once in awhile an umpire will call out a pitcher, and if he is caught cheating he is thrown out of the game. No one seems to have much of a problem with this.

 

IF, however, a pitcher was caught stealing the entire box of baseballs before the game out from under the umpires watch, took them to a bathroom (or had someone else do it), and altered all of the balls even slightly (and not up to 15% as Brady did) there is no question in my mind that player would be suspended for multiple games. I don't think it's even a question. Just a matter of how many.

This makes no sense. The ump has control of the balls and if you watch baseball, umps scan and feel if they're right before tossing them to a pitcher. A pitcher will often go through a dozen balls in an inning, and 8 to 10 dozen balls are used on average in any one MLB game. Regardless, the ball ALWAYS comes from the ump. It'd be nearly impossible to doctor it and not get noticed given the nature of baseballs. What you're proposing could never happen in real life.

 

From the MLB official rules page:

 

© Receive from the home club a supply of regulation baseballs, the number and make to be certified to the home club by the league president. The umpire shall inspect the baseballs and ensure they are regulation baseballs and that they are properly rubbed so that the gloss is removed. The umpire shall be the sole judge of the fitness of the balls to be used in the game;

(d) Be assured by the home club that at least one dozen regulation reserve balls are immediately available for use if required;

(e) Have in his possession at least two alternate balls and shall require replenishment of such supply of alternate balls as needed throughout the game. Such alternate balls shall be put in play when --

(1) A ball has been batted out of the playing field or into the spectator area;

(2) A ball has become discolored or unfit for further use;

(3) The pitcher requests such alternate ball.

Rule 3.01(e) Comment: The umpire shall not give an alternate ball to the pitcher until play has ended and the previously used ball is dead. After a thrown or batted ball goes out of the playing field, play shall not be resumed with an alternate ball until the runners have reached the bases to which they are entitled. After a home run is hit out of the playing grounds, the umpire shall not deliver a new ball to the pitcher or the catcher until the batter hitting the home run has crossed the plate.

(f) The umpire-in-chief shall ensure that an official rosin bag is placed on the ground behind the pitchers plate prior to the start of each game.

3.02

No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance.

PENALTY: The umpire shall demand the ball and remove the offender from the game. In addition, the offender shall be suspended automatically for 10 games. For rules in regard to a pitcher defacing the ball, see Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6).

Edited August 10, 2015 by dave mcbride

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

Is there definitive proof (ie not just assumptions) that the box of baseballs were a) stolen and b) doctored?

 

I would also be interested in knowing if, the entity professing that theft and doctoring of said balls transpired, is trustworthy or not.

Hey Monty Hall, again... This isn't lets make a deal. You live with the rules set by the authroity of the league. I am sorry you feel they are unjust poo poo heads and think you can whine and cry and debate about every ruling that goes against your favorite team.

[Kelly the Dog]

Is there definitive proof (ie not just assumptions) that the box of baseballs were a) stolen and b) doctored?

 

I would also be interested in knowing if, the entity professing that theft and doctoring of said balls transpired, is trustworthy or not.

A) there was enough circumstantial proof to make everyone in the world excluding crazy people and intellectually dishonest people from believing 99% and above certainty that they were stolen and doctored. We know for a fact they were stolen, no one is even arguing that, so I don't really know why you included it.

 

b) the person who stole the balls professed that he stole the balls. It's hard to know if the entity is professing, which I know you mean to imply Wells is trustworthy or not. There really has not been anything in this particular case so far that has shown him not to be.

[section122]

I brought this up this morning but would like anyone who has been defending Brady and thinking he has been treated unfairly to please try to answer this honestly.

 

In baseball it's been a long standing tradition to mess with the baseballs, and pitchers are rarely disciplined for doctoring them. It's considered almost part of the game and competitive advantage and everyone seems to go along with it, except every once in awhile an umpire will call out a pitcher, and if he is caught cheating he is thrown out of the game. No one seems to have much of a problem with this.

 

IF, however, a pitcher was caught stealing the entire box of baseballs before the game out from under the umpires watch, took them to a bathroom (or had someone else do it), and altered all of the balls even slightly (and not up to 15% as Brady did) there is no question in my mind that player would be suspended for multiple games. I don't think it's even a question. Just a matter of how many.

 

Not only are they thrown out but they are suspended after the fact as well.

[Kelly the Dog]

This makes no sense. The ump has control of the balls and if you watch baseball, umps scan and feel if they're right before tossing them to a pitcher. A pitcher will often go through a dozen balls in an inning, and 8 to 10 dozen balls are used on average in any one MLB game. Regardless, the ball ALWAYS comes from the ump. It'd be nearly impossible to doctor it and not get noticed given the nature of baseballs. What you're proposing could never happen in real life.

 

From the MLB official rules page:

 

© Receive from the home club a supply of regulation baseballs, the number and make to be certified to the home club by the league president. The umpire shall inspect the baseballs and ensure they are regulation baseballs and that they are properly rubbed so that the gloss is removed. The umpire shall be the sole judge of the fitness of the balls to be used in the game;(d) Be assured by the home club that at least one dozen regulation reserve balls are immediately available for use if required; (e) Have in his possession at least two alternate balls and shall require replenishment of such supply of alternate balls as needed throughout the game. Such alternate balls shall be put in play when --

(1) A ball has been batted out of the playing field or into the spectator area;

(2) A ball has become discolored or unfit for further use;

(3) The pitcher requests such alternate ball.Rule 3.01(e) Comment: The umpire shall not give an alternate ball to the pitcher until play has ended and the previously used ball is dead. After a thrown or batted ball goes out of the playing field, play shall not be resumed with an alternate ball until the runners have reached the bases to which they are entitled. After a home run is hit out of the playing grounds, the umpire shall not deliver a new ball to the pitcher or the catcher until the batter hitting the home run has crossed the plate.

(f) The umpire-in-chief shall ensure that an official rosin bag is placed on the ground behind the pitchers plate prior to the start of each game.

3.02

No player shall intentionally discolor or damage the ball by rubbing it with soil, rosin, paraffin, licorice, sand-paper, emery-paper or other foreign substance.

PENALTY: The umpire shall demand the ball and remove the offender from the game. In addition, the offender shall be suspended automatically for 10 games. For rules in regard to a pitcher defacing the ball, see Rules 8.02(a)(2) through (6).

Sure it could. The cheater could inject the ball with something with a needle and the ump would never see it or know. That's not the point whatsoever though. It's a hypothetical. The point is if someone did what Brady did in baseball, stole the balls and altered them all, versus just doctoring one in the game which is what people like yourself are comparing to what Brady did, he would surely be suspended.

[Mr. WEO]

 

Not only are they thrown out but they are suspended after the fact as well.

 

 

They are suspended for the football equivalent of less than one game. The 10 games they get are consecutive, not their own pitching games (maybe 2 out of the 10). This would be like Brady getting suspended for less than half a game.

Sure it could. The cheater could inject the ball with something with a needle and the ump would never see it or know. That's not the point whatsoever though. It's a hypothetical. The point is if someone did what Brady did in baseball, stole the balls and altered them all, versus just doctoring one in the game which is what people like yourself are comparing to what Brady did, he would surely be suspended.

 

What if he just did it on the sideline? No suspension?

[Kelly the Dog]

They are suspended for the football equivalent of less than one game. The 10 games they get are consecutive, not their own pitching games (maybe 2 out of the 10). This would be like Brady getting suspended for less than half a game.

Brady did it for multiple games this year and probably last year at least as well. The texts mentioned several of them. So ten games for each time they did it is at least the equivalent of four games.

[dave mcbride]

Sure it could. The cheater could inject the ball with something with a needle and the ump would never see it or know. That's not the point whatsoever though. It's a hypothetical. The point is if someone did what Brady did in baseball, stole the balls and altered them all, versus just doctoring one in the game which is what people like yourself are comparing to what Brady did, he would surely be suspended.

You clearly don't watch much baseball! Do you even know what's inside a baseball? Try injecting one. Trust me - it's not "impossible," but it's pretty damn close. And if you watched games, you'd know that if a team tried to this they'd have NO assurance that they'd be the beneficiary because "injected baseballs" would just as likely end up with the opposing team as one's own. Trust me on this one.

 

Also, in MLB you need evidence to convict a pitcher for defacing a ball. The NFL has evidence from one game, not multiple ones despite what you say. If a guy gets nailed for pine tar in one game, they don't go back and look at the videos from previous games and try to divine whether he used it in prior games. That's been one of the weaker lines of your otherwise strong argument. They have no physical evidence of what happened in week 12 or 13 from the 2014 season. And it only matters if the balls went below 12.5. If they can't prove that this happened in those weeks, it's truly a dead letter. This is all about the Colts game and nothing else when it comes to penalizing them.

Brady did it for multiple games this year and probably last year at least as well. The texts mentioned several of them. So ten games for each time they did it is at least the equivalent of four games.

That's not evidence of them getting the ball below 12.5 in prior games. None. You keep saying that it's evidence of something, but really, it isn't unless there is physical evidence. Stick to the Colts game, where you're on safer ground.

Edited August 10, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

You clearly don't watch much baseball! Trust me - it's not "impossible," but it's pretty damn close. And if you watched games, you'd know that if a team tried to this they'd have assurance that they'd be the beneficiary because "injected baseballs" would just as likely end up with the opposing team as one's own. Trust me on this one.

 

Also, in MLB you need evidence to convict a pitcher for defacing a ball. The NFL has evidence from one game, not multiple ones despite what you say. If a guy gets nailed for pine tar in one game, they don't go back and look at the videos from previous games and try to divine whether he used it in prior games. That's been one of the weaker lines of your otherwise strong argument. They have no physical evidence of what happened in week 12 or 13 from the 2014 season. And it only matters if the balls went below 12.5. If they can't prove that this happened in those weeks, it's truly a dead letter. This is all about the Colts game and nothing else when it comes to penalizing them.

No, it's not. At all. I don't know how many times it needs to be said but it was CLEARLY the leagues position that this suspension was because of the total issue not just the Championship game, and was over several games, otherwise all of the texts from McNally and Jestremski would be moot.

[Mr. WEO]

Brady did it for multiple games this year and probably last year at least as well. The texts mentioned several of them. So ten games for each time they did it is at least the equivalent of four games.

 

The league didn't agree with this assessment.

[dave mcbride]

 

The league didn't agree with this assessment.

They didn't agree with this because they have zero physical evidence.

Edited August 10, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

The league didn't agree with this assessment.

They most certainly did. The four games was not for the Championship game deflation, it was for that plus other games. The total problem. Otherwise as I stated above, all of the Jastremki and McNally texts and The Deflator idea would be moot and have had no affect on their ruling, which is inarguably did.

[dave mcbride]

No, it's not. At all. I don't know how many times it needs to be said but it was CLEARLY the leagues position that this suspension was because of the total issue not just the Championship game, and was over several games, otherwise all of the texts from McNally and Jestremski would be moot.

No physical evidence. None.